My Blu-Ray Movie Burning Experiences... - Page 56 - AVS Forum
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post #1651 of 2482 Old 12-05-2008, 02:49 PM
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Just to be technically correct you created a Blu-Ray disc on a regular DVD not an AVCHD disc. AVCHD is a compression standard or high profile h264. The Blu-Ray spec also includes MPEG-2 streams so that is why your disc worked. There are some early Blu-Ray discs using MPEG-2. At least with my Sony BPD-S300 I can even put either a remuxed MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 stream on a regular DVD data disk not UDF and it will play. The weird thing is even if it is a transport stream I have to change the extension to .MPG for it to play. To be clear the disc has to be created in UDF 2.5 only if you have a Blu-Ray disc structure. There is much more discussion on this earlier in this thread.

Some of this takes me back to the AVeL Linkplayer2 days and I should not have been surprised when looking around here I find Sigma Graphics has a hand in Blu-Ray development which they also provided the guts for the Linkplayer2. No wonder these players are setup a bit like the Linkplayer2. Were we Linkplayer2 people beta testers for BD prototypes? They seem to go off the market the same time that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD came on the market.
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post #1652 of 2482 Old 12-05-2008, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Just to be technically correct you created a Blu-Ray disc on a regular DVD not an AVCHD disc. AVCHD is a compression standard or high profile h264. The Blu-Ray spec also includes MPEG-2 streams so that is why your disc worked. There are some early Blu-Ray discs using MPEG-2. At least with my Sony BPD-S300 I can even put either a remuxed MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 stream on a regular DVD data disk not UDF and it will play. The weird thing is even if it is a transport stream I have to change the extension to .MPG for it to play. To be clear the disc has to be created in UDF 2.5 only if you have a Blu-Ray disc structure. There is much more discussion on this earlier in this thread.

Cool. Thanks for the info...BD9/BD5 Blu-ray Disc it is!
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post #1653 of 2482 Old 12-06-2008, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himey View Post

Cool. Thanks for the info...BD9/BD5 Blu-ray Disc it is!

Actually, to be very nit-picky, it's DVD5 (4.7Gb) and DVD9 (8.7GB). BDs are either 25 or 50Gb.

But what's some terminology amongst friends.....

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post #1654 of 2482 Old 12-06-2008, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by seggers View Post

Actually, to be very nit-picky,

Seggers

Actually, BD9/BD5 term (spec) does exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray...5_Blu-ray_Disc

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The BD9/BD5 format was originally proposed by Warner Home Video, as a cost-effective alternative to regular Blu-ray Discs.[89] It was adopted as part of the BD-ROM basic format, file system, and AV specifications. BD9/BD5 is similar to 3× DVD for HD DVD.

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post #1655 of 2482 Old 12-09-2008, 06:45 PM
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where can i get mini bd-r dL
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post #1656 of 2482 Old 12-11-2008, 04:15 PM
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I hadn't looked at doom9 in a while, but I found this link today http://www.emedialive.com/articles/r...leid=11425#ixp
Apparently there's been some new commercial authoring software released since the last time I looked.
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post #1657 of 2482 Old 12-11-2008, 09:59 PM
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The following is just background information for where the Steps to convert HDMV to AVCHD came from.


While waiting on some downloads I thought I would see if I could get any idea how the Blu-ray output for tsMuxer/TsRemux is any different than AVCHD or BDMV. From what I had read, TsRemux just took the Nero index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files, so it always surprised me that tsMuxer/TsRemux on DVD media generally seemed compatible with more players. I'm not sure how exactly the Nero files were generated from the online discussion, but unless it was somehow HDAV I figure it wouldn't really matter.

Looking at index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv (attached zip file) in a hex editor they're identical in tsMuxer and TsRemux as suspected. There are a couple differences in the other files, but for now I was trying to just look at the two main files that people had been replacing. Comparing the TsRemux files to the original Nero files shows that only the NV text and some numbers have changed. I figure NV stands for Nero Vision and the numbers were the current version at the time, considering the TsRemux revision has TR and the numbers are similar to the version when introduced.

Looking at my AVCHD and BDMV files from TotalMedia in comparison to the TsRemux files the common item seems to be that they all start with "INDX0100", except for the BDMV. The index.bdmv files all have adr. dec. 15 set to char. dec. 120, except for BDMV. Going by that I was starting to suspect that maybe I could try setting BDMV to reflect those changes.

A google search returned http://chrishatton.homeip.net/bdjfor...?f=7&t=23#p418 The last post in the thread really caught my attention. Step 1 doesn't seem to apply because my stream file from TotalMedia didn't change with ps3bdfix. The very end of step 5 seems unnecessary because I think that's just version text that wouldn't matter. Still, steps 2-7 seem interesting.

"AVCHD-Patcher" in google returns what seems to be a chinese blog from the author. Running the 1.01 version seems to change adr. dec. 15 to char. dec. 148 (rather than 120), and it adds some information to the end of my BDMV's index.bdmv that looks to be very similar to the end of the TsRemux file. The 1.04 version likewise adds the data to the end of the file and changes adr. dec. 15 like the 1.01 version, but it says AVCHD-Patcher instead of the TR text previously mentioned.

What I'm hoping is that I can take my TotalMedia BDMV files, use AVCHD-Patcher on the index.bdmv, change INDX0100 in both files, replace the backup files, and get a DVD media disc with the compatability of tsMuxer with menus. I figure if it doesn't work, I might also change adr. dec. 15 to char. dec. 120 rather than 148 like AVCHD-Patcher is doing. I have zero idea if this will work with the PS3 and players like the Samsung 1500, but it would be really nice to have tsMuxer compatability on DVD with menus. For PS3 owners this might allow you to play HD mpeg2 with menus from DVD, without all the trouble of creating two disks like the previously posted guide.


EDIT: On further inspection it appears I was incorrect about adr. dec. 15, and apparently tsMuxer/TsRemux probably just took index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv from the Nero AVCHD output. Although tsMuxer does not conform to the AVCHD requirement of only using AVC video, it appears that tsMuxer just creates an output that uses base AVCHD files just like the PS3 reports. My point in commenting how tsMuxer creates its files is that the Wiki and doom9 report that tsMuxer/TsRemux create a true BD-5/9, which is most likely false. In my testing tsMuxer does not appear to be any more compatible than typical AVCHD.

 

index-MovieObject.zip 3.6083984375k . file
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post #1658 of 2482 Old 12-12-2008, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

For PS3 owners this might allow you to play HD mpeg2 with menus from DVD, without all the trouble of creating two disks like the previously posted guide.

Are you poking at my guide on page 38?

Now, on a serious note, I downloaded your zip file. But I am not sure what do I have to do. Can you provide specific directions what to do with your files to test with my PS3?

Thanks.
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post #1659 of 2482 Old 12-12-2008, 04:56 PM
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EDIT: It looks like AVCHD-Patcher 1.06 was changed to take care of steps 4 and 5.
EDIT2: The download at Wirepole's site doesn't seem to work anymore, but the files can be downloaded at http://www.videohelp.com/forum/archi...d-t370304.html


One use for converting HDMV to AVCHD is for example that it allows the PS3 to play HD mpeg2 video from DVD with menus. tsMuxer can also be used to play HD mpeg2 video as AVCHD from DVD, but tsMuxer doesn't easily allow for the sort of menus that can be created with programs like VideoStudio. The following are steps that seem to work for converting home-authored HDMV to AVCHD. You'll need AVCHD-Patcher (Download location) and XVI32 (or another hex editor) to make the conversion.

1) Start with files in Blu-ray HDMV format. There are a number of commercial programs that can create HDMV with menus, and VideoStudio is one example. See The Authoritative Blu-ray Disc (BD) FAQ for a listing of other programs to create HDMV. From reports it seems very likely that BD-J will not work with this method.

2) Run AVCHD-Patcher, go to the /BDMV directory, and drag the index.bdmv file into the patcher. A new window will popup telling you the file has been patched. After you click ok the program will add AVCHD information to the file.


3) Delete the index.bdmv.bak file created by the patcher. It's simply a backup of the original index.bdmv file that is not needed.

4) Run XVI32 and open the index.bdmv file that was changed. You need to edit INDX0200 to read INDX0100. To do this select the 2 in INDX0200 at the top right as shown in the image below. Type the number 1 and save the file.


5) Now open MovieObject.bdmv from the same directory in XVI32. Similar to the last step, change MOBJ0200 to MOBJ100. Change the 2 shown in the image below to a 1, save the file.


6) Copy the revised index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files from /BDMV to /BDMV/BACKUP. You'll need to overwrite the files that are already in the backup directory.

7) Burn the /BDMV folder and sub-folders to a DVD using UDF 2.5 format. Step 4 from this guide shows how to set the disc format with ImgBurn or Nero. AVCHD does not seem to include the /CERTIFICATE folder from HDMV, so I wouldn't include it. The only directories that seem to be in commercial AVCHD are:
/BDMV
/BDMV/BACKUP
/BDMV/BACKUP/CLIPINF
/BDMV/BACKUP/PLAYLIST
/BDMV/CLIPINF
/BDMV/PLAYLIST
/BDMV/STREAM



NOTES:
A) The AVCHD-Patcher program will not change anything if the file is already an AVCHD structure. tsMuxer for example creates an AVCHD file structure when the "Blu-ray" output setting is chosen.

B) Typical consumer software for creating HDMV appears to work fine, but Scenarist is known to default to setting a copy protection indicator (cpi) bit in the BDMV video. PS3bdfix101 can correct the video in the STREAMS directory if the BDMV was created by Scenarist with cpi on. For most programs that create BDMV you will never have to worry about cpi and PS3bdfix101 would make no changes to the video.

C) Steps 3 to 6 are not required for all players, but they're included to make the video more compatible.

D) The complete set of steps for converting HDMV to AVCHD seemed to play on the PS3, BDP-S1, BDP-S500, BDP-S550, BD30, BD35, BD55, BH200, and BD-P1500. The BDP-S550 and BD35 would not play the AVCHD if the hex editing from steps 4 and 5 was not included. The only player I tried that wouldn't play AVCHD was the BD-P2500, but the firmware might not have been current and I know many of the prior Samsungs before the BD-P1400 update were reported as unable to play AVCHD.
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post #1660 of 2482 Old 12-13-2008, 09:17 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It worked!

I used Ulead DMF6+ to author BDMV project using HDV MPEG2 file with AC3 audio. Used menus with animation, transitions, and all other bells and whistles. Then I performed all those steps. Burned to DVD+RW with Nero.

PS3 showed that it was AVCHD disk and played everything.

WOW!

The only difference was that when I loaded MovieObject.bdmv file into XVI32 hex editor it showed MOBJ0200 instead of INDX0200. But I changed 2 to 1 anyway.

WOW!
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post #1661 of 2482 Old 12-13-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

PS3 showed that it was AVCHD disk and played everything.

I tried the BDMV to AVCHD on the 10 different players at Circuit City. All 10 players worked exactly the same regardless if the disk was a true AVCHD output, tsMuxer, or BDMV converted to AVCHD. As far as I can tell this will probably work similar to tsMuxer in regards to what will play and what will not play. So like Tom Roper wrote about above, some players probably will not be able to play high-bitrate files with this method. Besides menus, one difference between this and using tsMuxer is that the program for creating BDMV will put more controls on what is allowable video and audio than tsMuxer does.

True AVCHD or TsRemux files appear to have CLIPINF set to HDMV0100 and PLAYLIST set to MPLS0100 for media, while this method and tsMuxer use HDMV0200 and MPLS0200. Based on testing it doesn't seem to matter how CLIPINF and PLAYLIST are set for media. This was commented about on doom9 that TsRemux was correct and tsMuxer was wrong in how CLIPINF and PLAYLIST are set for the media callout, but it doesn't appear to matter.


Quote:


The only difference was that when I loaded MovieObject.bdmv file into XVI32 hex editor it showed MOBJ0200 instead of INDX0200. But I changed 2 to 1 anyway.

You are right, that should have read MOBJ. I've updated the post to read correctly.
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post #1662 of 2482 Old 12-13-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

So like Tom Roper wrote about above, some players probably will not be able to play high-bitrate files with this method. .

My PS3 handles HDV MPEG-2 file at 25 Mbs CBR from DVD disk without any problem.
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post #1663 of 2482 Old 12-14-2008, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It worked!
WOW!

Yep!

Thanks alluringreality!

I used Sony DVD Architect 5.0 for one reason, besides TSmuxeR it's the only Blu-ray authoring application I own that passes through unmolested XDCAM-EX 1920x1080 24/p and AC3 5.1 448kbps without trying to re-encode it.

Using alluring's method, AVCHD Patcher and a hex editor, the DVD5 disk played with full menu functionality, and output as native 24p from the PS3.

I tried everything in the menus to break it, even FF and chapter stops are smooth, on the PS3 at least.
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post #1664 of 2482 Old 12-15-2008, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

I used Sony DVD Architect 5.0 for one reason, besides TSmuxeR it's the only Blu-ray authoring application I own that passes through unmolested XDCAM-EX 1920x1080 24/p and AC3 5.1 448kbps without trying to re-encode it.

Good for you. DVDA says that HDV is not compliant with Blu-ray specs and must be re-encoded. Nero Vision does the same.

So, for me DMF6+ is the only option to author BDMV and "MPEG2-AVCHD" from HDV video without re-encoding.
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post #1665 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 07:48 AM
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Sorry I dont mean to interrupt. But I am putting a new htpc together and I came across this thread and read some of it but did not see if it is possible to create exact 1:1 copies including 7.1 Master Audio. If it is possible what software is the best.
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post #1666 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A Gonzalez View Post

Sorry I dont mean to interrupt. But I am putting a new htpc together and I came across this thread and read some of it but did not see if it is possible to create exact 1:1 copies including 7.1 Master Audio. If it is possible what software is the best.

Dude,

AVS doesn't allow chat about copying/pirating movies.

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post #1667 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 08:04 AM
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There is nothing illegal about making back up copies of disc I own. I have a 5 year old that I gave my old 1080P lcd tv to and when the new OPPO blu-ray player comes out I will give her my old one but I dont want her touching the disc (I dont like finger prints or scratches on them, I'm funny like that) so if I could make back up copies for her I would prefer it.
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post #1668 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark A Gonzalez View Post

There is nothing illegal about making back up copies of disc I own. I have a 5 year old that I gave my old 1080P lcd tv to and when the new OPPO blu-ray player comes out I will give her my old one but I dont want her touching the disc (I dont like finger prints or scratches on them, I'm funny like that) so if I could make back up copies for her I would prefer it.

Which is great, espeically if you would have mentioned it in the first place.

But talking about how to copy stuff is frowned apon here I believe.

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post #1669 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MozartMan View Post

DVDA says that HDV is not compliant with Blu-ray specs and must be re-encoded.

Did you try demuxing? I noticed that an mpeg2 video file I had on my computer was recognized as non-compliant, but if I demuxed it to elementary streams the program would accept the exact same video as compliant. I'll figure you tried a plain video stream, but just asking.

I had sort of forgot about the Sony program until Tom mentioned it. I read it didn't do AVCHD, so I never looked at the trial when it came out. I was able to create an mpeg2 24p video disk with 24p menus, but I can't get the program to accept any AVC 24p video without recompressing. The only help I could find online said to use .avc from Vegas, but it looks like to use .avs in Vegas I would have to do something like http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guid...mozTocId201615 I just find it odd that I can get TotalMedia and MediaFactory to accept compliant AVC and I can't seem to get this much more expensive program to load any outside AVC. Anyway, if anyone knows a way to get DVD Architect to load video from x264 without transcoding I'd like to hear.
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post #1670 of 2482 Old 12-17-2008, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Did you try demuxing? I noticed that an mpeg2 video file I had on my computer was recognized as non-compliant, but if I demuxed it to elementary streams the program would accept the exact same video as compliant. I'll figure you tried a plain video stream, but just asking.

De-muxing, re-muxing didn't help. DVD Architect didn't actually say that video "was not compliant". It said that video had to be re-compressed. Nero Vision 5 (from Nero 8 package) does the same, wants to re-compress HDV MPEG-2 file. And this is because HDV MPEG-2 is High-1440 Level, and per Sony's DVDA specs MPEG-2 for Blu-ray must be just High Level.

Ulead's DMF6+ (and version 7) is less restrictive and doesn't re-encode HDV MPEG-2 video.
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post #1671 of 2482 Old 12-18-2008, 10:48 PM
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I would just observe, not demux and remux, just demux. Feed DVDA the elementary streams. You go into the ACTIONS table to select the companion AC3 or LPCM stream. I think this should work (easy for me to say) since I'm not using HDV as much, but you could try capturing some HDV footage directly into Vegas.

That said, I don't think there are compelling reasons to use DVDA for HDV over MF6+. You've got it working already with MF6+, so unless you sought some other reason to use it like native 24p, there's no reason DVDA gives you to not stick with MF6+.

It's just so strict about what it wants. I found that even if it says "No Recompress," it often will halt the progress with an error anyway. The Sony Support Forum says if that happens, try again but force a recompress. If that solves it, the stream was not compliant. I found that to be true. It doesn't like streams from Womble or VideoRedo.

What does seem to work 100%, is if you use the Sony products Vegas and DVDA end to end. With HDV I frowned on that because editing with Vegas meant a minimum of 1 render. But with the XDCAM, 1 render is requisite anyway to reduce the native bit rate. The Vegas/DVDA workflow thus becomes practical, and moreover beneficial for 24p.

Something to give DVDA kudos for is the speed with which it authors a project seems quite a bit faster to me than MF6+ or TMPGEnc DVD Author. It's been a reasonable learning curve with Vegas and DVDA, some frustrations with both for sure. For all the wasted time on the input side, it's nice to see some payback on the output side.

But all that misses the most important point, remiss to not mention it would all be useless if Alluringreality had not posted his remarkable recipe with AVCHD-Patcher and the hex editor. Great Work!
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post #1672 of 2482 Old 12-19-2008, 01:46 AM
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I read this forum carefully very long, but this is my first post here. I live in PAL country.
I must say that this forum is great and very interesting for me since I bought HV-30 and PS3. Before, I had (and I still have) GS-500, but with HDV started some problems and this forum solved many of them.
I watch SD and HD video on Panasonic 37 plasma. I must say that HV-30's HD video is much better when propery recorded in good light conditions, but in low light (under the same conditions) it is not always the case, because GS-500 is much better in low light - for HV-30 to be better in low light you simply need 50-100 Lux more light.

MozartMan's guide for making dummy AVCHD (with mpeg2 video) is really great, and alluringreality's is even better (less complicate), and those guides work for me. But, I think that me (we ?) stil have some problems here.

When I first watched HD video from my HV-30 on PS3 it was dummy AVCHD (from MozartMan) and I saw some artifacts for which I thought they are from HDV format, from rolling shutter, from auto focus and exposition, and who knows from what else. In that moment I couldn't watch m2t file properly from PS3's HDD or DVD because PS3 hadn't possibility to watch PAL 50 Hz data file like PAL - PS3 always transformed PAL data files to NTSC 60 Hz - and that looked even worse. But after new firmwares (now I have 2.52) PS3 can play PAL 50 Hz data file like PAL 50 Hz. And now I see that those artifacts disappeared or are much much smaller. What I want to say is that PS3 plays same data m2t files from HDD or DVD better than from dummy mpeg2 AVCHD. Dummy AVCHD looks great, but has some artifacts. Those artifacts are blinking or flashing on some parts of movies - especially on bright and thin white or silver objects. More precisely, they sometimes looks like live snakes which moves up and down (or left and right) on bright thin objects. I also tried real (not dummy) AVCHD from the same video and it also looks great, but it also has similar artifacts (and even worse) like dummy AVCHD. M2t transport stream files (and mpeg2 program stream files) played directly on PS3 (before or after processing in Vegas) from PS3's HDD or DVD do not have those artifacts. Those artifacts are very small and only in some parts of video, but they exist - only carefully eye can see them, and me and my son see them. Now I am really in big dilemma - to watch better loking m2t files without menus on PS3 (and to wait for my first real Blu-Ray disc for menus) or to watch dummy AVCHD with some artifacts (but with menus).

My question is - does anybody see similar artifacts, and why are they here with dummy AVCHD (I said before, I live in PAL country, maybe NTSC people don't see them) ?

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post #1673 of 2482 Old 12-19-2008, 01:26 PM
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Seso, when I author NTSC HDV from a Canon XH-A1 or HV-10 onto a "dummy" AVCHD disk (we call em hybrids or DVD5/9), the playback at 60 hz looks identical to data playback from the PS3 hard drive. I'm viewing them on a 50 inch 1080p Pioneer Elite plasma. These would be 1080/60i disks authored with TSmuxeR or TSremux. I have looked at this closely. That's my experience. I don't doubt you could be seeing it differently in PAL land.

I have seen a difference in how 24p is handled from the PS3 hard drive versus a hybrid AVCHD disk. In that case, the AVCHD hybrid is better because it plays back from the PS3 at the native 24p rate, whereas from the internal hard drive it isn't as I recall. Anyway, 24p looks better from the AVCHD hybrid.
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Tom and others.....unfortunately we in PAL lands with our camcoders are not very interested in 24p. PAL HV-30 has 25p mode, but video is also stored in interlaced container like 50i and it is recommended to render those footage like interlaced - but video looks like progressive. I like nice Vegas smartrendering feature and it will do smartrendering only with 50i HDV template. Smartrendering for me means - fast and without losses - and I change in video only what I really have to. Also, there is not official 1080 25p Blu-Ray specifications - there is only 1080 24p. I tried one Slideshow in 1080 25p and PS3 plays it very well, but it is not official format and I will make everything in official 1080 50i (Slideshow looks more and less the same but you need more time to render it). I have much experience with GS-500 with 25p and Cine mode (Panasonic call that all - Procinema) and I didn't like them. I believe I will not like them on HV-30 also. Maybe for NTSC people will 24p be more interesting because you gain something in low light - like Camcoderinfo.com funny overly said for HV-20 that it is killer in low light - now I see it is certainly not killer but with 24p you have 1/48 shutter and it is really better than 1/60 in low light (maybe 1,5 to 3 db) - but for us in PAL countries we allways have nominal 1/50 and believe me I tried and we don't gain anything visible with 25p in low light (with 1/50) shutter - and it is for me more or less the same sensibility like NTSC's 1/48. NTSC people can sacrifice smooth picture for 1,5-3 dB less Gain in low light, but for me the only good recipe is more light - and I am prepared for that few years and I have two (total 60W) on camera battery lights and 2500W, 220V reflector lights with dimmers and stands.

As you can see, I like my GS-500 very much, it was really the camcoder that was very close to much bigger prosumer SD cams, with profi feeling and loook, with wonderful reach colours and great low light capabilities compared to today's HD small cams - and I believe to camcoderinfo.com that HV-20 (10,30) is the best of them (but we should not believe them everything). I made some great movies with GS-500, and hope to do that with HV-30, but to do that you should know what it can to do. Later, when I bought HV-30, I have read somewhere that HD cams are inferior to SD cams in low light because of much more pixels - and I don't know why is that but now I know it is the true. Anyway, I will use both cams and I will keep my GS-500, especially because now I don't see lights and hope on horizon in Canon, Sony and others to make something much better in HD than HV series (same small and for the same money). HV-30 is also good, well it is HD, but I miss better handling, pivoting VF and better low light capabilities.

Why I am talking so much. Well, what I saw from people who looked at my movies, they liked movies but they also enjoyed in menus. And somethimes, I spent very much time on creating the interesting menus. This forum gave some great information about hybrid AVCHD with real menus. I don't have BR burner yet. I even don't need it yet - most of my films are shorter than 20 minutes. Most people in my county don't have PS3 or other BR player yet, but I am preparing for the future to work everything easy and smooth like with SD. Some people from this forum gave great information for that.

My video from my previous message was taken in 50i and I like 50i, and artifacts which I saw to me really look maybe like deinterlacing problem (problems on thin shiny objects) - so, maybe there wouldn't be artifacts if video was taken in 25p mode. Some people could think that PS3 is responsible for that artifacts in PAL, or maybe camcoder, or maybe some programs, but they are not. I have some new strange findings here. I authored hybrid AVCHD's with NERO 8, ULEAD MF and with TSremux. I played them all on computer with NERO 8 and WinDVD 9 - and I see in all of them that artifacts again on computer (and also on PS3 and plasma). When I play m2t, mpeg2 and even m2ts file from BDMV STREAM folder - everything looks OK - on computer with different players and on PS3. If authored m2ts file plays well, than problem is somewhere in structure in BDMV folders, in some other files - that makes computer players and PS3 not properly to play that video. As for PS3 and plasma, I tried everything - I changed all settings on PS3 and plasma and result was the same - live snakes. As for deinterlacing on PS3 and plasma, I tried m2t file with 1080i, 1080p and 720p output from PS3 - and it allways looked good and without the live snakes artifacts. So, I can't say which is better deinterlacer (PS3 or plasma). With AVCHD, I could try only 1080i and 720p output from PS3 - and it allways looked more or less the same with same live snake artifacts.

I must say that I also tried real Blu-Ray BDMV from HDD of my computer (I don't have BR player yet on computer) - and that played also with live snakes - so hybrid AVCHD is maybe also not responsible - if not, what really is - is it Blu-Ray format and is it only for PAL, or is it Blu-Ray format really good only for 24p, and 50i (and everything other what is interlaced) is problematic.

As I said before, those artifacts are very small and only in some parts of video, but they exist - only carefully eye and eye which saw better video from the same source can see them. Next, my video was 20 minutes test video when I pushed camcoder to the limit and I tried really everything in manual and auto mode (I always like to test my camcoders month or two) and it was video on bright shiny day in school yard with many flashing objects (aluminium frames of windows, white frames of goals and baskets, aluminium outdoor lighting stands and so). In normal (not test) video and properly recorded in manual mode maybe me and other people would never see those artifacts, or maybe they would be smaller or less visible. In my test videos from low light (in my house) there is not visible artifacts and differences, but there is also not so many shiny thin objects. But real problem here is - why my outdoor test video looks different from m2t and AVCHD - they should look the same, bad or good, but the same - m2t looks really steady, like still moving pictures, or like you look through the window, but AVCHD does not and it sometimes flashing on thin shiny objects (it also look great, but my problem is that now I now that it could even look better).

My problem is that I really tried everything, that such forums about HD video, camcoders and PS3 are much much stronger from NTSC countries than PAL and that NTSC people really didn't report such kind of problems - live snakes in interlaced HD camcoder's videos played in AVCHD, hybrid AVCHD and BR (BDMV) formats. Maybe on some German or French forum, but I don' know that languages. Shame is that Sony introduced 50 Hz capability for PS3 before few months (until then we could play PAL video media data files only in NTSC which looked terrible). Maybe is the same with BDMV format, because I tried everything with different programs and on different places - and if NTSC people don't see artifacts and I see them - problem is in PAL only? If NTSC people also see artifacts and differences - is it problem in deinterlacing, or is it BR format more for 24p, or is it problem in 1440x1080 HDV format - nobady yet knows.


Anyway, I have 4 original m2t NTSC files from internet (about 20 sec. each) from HV-20. I will make AVCHD with them and I will try to see if I notice those artifacts on PS3 and on computer.

Angry Seso.
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post #1675 of 2482 Old 12-20-2008, 10:12 AM
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Tom and others.....I wanted to ask if there is anybody from PAL land who read this forum - but now there is no need for that. I just tried 4 original m2t NTSC HV-20 files from internet and I saw the same things like in my PAL example. Those files are HDV 60i baseball-beach.m2t, Birds.m2t, seagull-beach.m2t, windy-bridge.m2t and I downloaded them before 5-6 months from one man's Internet page. They are between 60 and 160 MB each, and if they still exist you can search Internet download them, experiment and see what I saw. There is no PAL or NTSC PS3 like DVD players before, PS3s are now all the same.

Those files are not so characteristic like my example (which was with much more thin metal shiny vertical or horizontal objects and much better and stilly filmed) but in some of them I saw some same things. I saw that hardly, but I saw that on the end of file seagull-beach.m2t on the back and distant parts white fence, I saw that in the file Birds.m2t where small leafs arround bird are flashing more. What is also very interesting in the file seagull-beach.m2t is that man certainly had problems with his tape and had two breaks or abnormality in video. Those abnormalities are presented different in m2t and AVCHD video. In this case, AVCHD played them better than m2t. But, it is also the proof that m2t and AVCHD don't look identical - regardless they should look the same.

So, I don't speak what I think, I speak what I see. And my two sons saw the same, something is different in AVCHD and m2t played on PS3. And that is for PAL and NTSC now. I told you before that I also saw that on computer and also for real BR BDMV example (but played only from HDD of my computer).

Now, I can also think little and say that great hybrid AVCHD findings on this great forum are maybe not responsible for this. I think, maybe this will also be the case with real BR discs. I saw bad indications for that on my computer - but the only proof for me will be on PS3 and plasma. I will try that when I make my first real BR disc. Maybe this was the case all these past years with SD DVD video and its VOB files- but we didn't know and didn't see. We couldn't know and see that because there was not PS3 and because interlaced SD video on progressive plasma (LCD) was (because of upscaling) so full of different artifacts that we didn't see this. On good old small interlaced TV's everything was great with properly filmed interlaced video and without visible artifacts at all. But on big progressive plasma or LCD - everything is great and beautifull, but unfortunately everything is visible.

So, I have to congratulate to all people on this forum on great findings on hybrid AVCHD, but it would be also great to find why PS3 and computer players plays m2t and AVCHD differently. I tried everything but I didn't find. Maybe I will go out one day and film similar scenes on bright light day in 25p mode, but I didn't see sun here more than 10 days. I am even more interested but also in doubt what will be with BR discs, but the only proof for me will be when I make one. Also, very interesting would be how other BR players play AVCHD, hybrid AVCHD and BR discs, but I will maybe never know because I doubt I will buy one and I still think PS3 is the best solution.

Until then, I will probably make hybrid AVCHD, but I will save my original m2t files (after Vegas) on my HDDs, I will read forums and will wait for better days for Blu-Ray.

If somebody who also read this forum, but who is not so occupied with look of his video, he doesn't need to care - because hybrid AVCHD is so wonderfull with fully functional and now and live menus (after alluringreality) and looks so great that maybe 90 of 100 people will not see the difference - in other words - you will never know. MozartMan's findings are also great and if you have ULEAD MF and NERO 8 and if you make menus based on his findings, you can make them 10 years and they will still be interesting - and all that on cheap DVD or DVD DL for 23 or 45 minutes of HQ mpeg2 video which is almost the same like I did before with SD video (I made it always in full quality, 9600 birtrate, for 60-65 minutes of video). You even never need BR discs which are for me and my films little too long with 2 hours of video capability. You don't need TSremux anymore.

Seso
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post #1676 of 2482 Old 12-21-2008, 09:55 AM
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Seso,

So that you get some perspective, my HD authoring experience took root first with the JVC GR-HD1, Sony Z1U, Canon HV10, Canon XH-A1 and Sony PMW-EX1. I still use the latter 3 cams.

Playback is via Pioneer Elite 50 inch 1080p plasma monitor and Sony PS3 connected via HDMI input.

The reason I mention the hardware, is not to brandish credentials, but so that we get on the same page. There are so many possible explanations hardware-wise outside of possible differences in how hybrid AVCHD disks are authored versus m2t.

I am sympathetic to the emotion of your observations. I have a keen eye for viewing. We have to remove the emotion and be objective. Throughout your passionate postings, you have revealed little about the configuration of your equipment. Please list it out for us along with how it's connected.

What kind of tv/monitor is connected to the PS3? Is it connected via the HDMI input? Component Y Cr/Cb? Is it LCD? CRT? Plasma or something else? What is its sync frequency? 50hz? 60hz?

To get a baseline, turn off ALL image processing circuits in the TV menu, particularly mpeg or block noise reduction, cinemotion or cinema pulldown circuits, and make sure sharpening is not too high. Your interlaced camcorder HDV video is doesn't need any pulldown circuitry enabled for the baseline. Is your camcorder shooting 50i or 60i?

Next up, the PS3.

Use the following settings for the baseline:

Video Settings:
BD/DVD Cinema Conversion - VIDEO
BD 1080P24 Hz Output (HDMI) - AUTOMATIC
BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) - AUTOMATIC

Display Settings (PS3):
Video Output Setting Current Output Resolution - 1080I

********************************************

Insert AVCHD hybrid disk into the PS3 and observe playback.
Press the green triangle button, a menu overlay will appear over the image. Scroll to AV Settings. Observe them. Now halt the playback of the disk.

Commence playback of the m2t file from the PS3 hard drive.
Press the green triange button and scroll to the AV Settings. Observe that for m2t playback, there is a different menu than you had with the AVCHD hybrid. You will observe that there are now some noise reduction circuits shown, a completely different menu! Can those circuits be responsible for the difference you are observing between m2t and AVCHD disk?

Make sure 1080p output from the PS3 is NOT enabled. For the test, you want your TV to be doing all the deinterlacing.

As you have made observations about crawling snakes, I have an observation to share. The PS3 when playing back interlaced m2t streams from the hard disk will sometimes lock onto the wrong field order, displaying the lower field first in error. When that happens, the picture is marginally softer. Most people won't notice. It's very subtle. You can re-sync to the correct upper field first order by alternately pressing PAUSE, then PLAY several times. <--That problem I have not observed ever happening with BDMV or AVCHD hybrid playback. So there actually ARE a few differences in how playback are handled for interlaced streams as well as progressive ones, between the PS3 playing back from its internal hard disk drive, or its BD-ROM drive.

I hope that helps.
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post #1677 of 2482 Old 12-21-2008, 10:29 AM
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One ambition has been to see 24p AVC with AC3 5.1 surround accepted natively by the authoring application so that no additional recompression would be required. I found a surprising way that is probably not practical for the workflow of most people, but it works stupendously well for someone using Sony products end to end.

The Sony PMW-EX1 camcorder workflow uses a wrapper called MXF (material exchange format). Inside the MXF wrapper is HQ 35 mbps vbr mpeg-2. The native bit rate is too high for our hybrid AVCHD disks, so it must be recompressed. Up until now, I would use Vegas Pro 8.0(c) to output using one of the Blu-ray templates, since those would load into DVD Architect 5.0 without further re-encodes, and I could get clean, relatively fast 25 mbps mpeg-2 disk that plays great on the PS3, but the read rate from the disk media is too high for anything else. (I tried Sony BDSP-350, Panasonic BD35, and Samsung 2500.)

I tried lowering the mpeg-2 bit rate, but the quality suffers.

What next hit me like an arctic gust was to work this problem in reverse. What I did was instead of using the Vegas Blu-ray template to re-encode from MXF to Blu-ray mpeg-2, I chose instead to output from Vegas in the original container using the MXF template! Vegas SMART RENDERS it!!! Then I let DVD Architect do the rendering to AVC 24p with AC3 5.1 surround at 18 mbps. The result was FAN-DAM-TASTIC! It does a terrific VBR encode! The bit rate observed on the PS3 would hover at the 18 mbps average, have absolute peaks within a range of 4.2 - 32.2, and more typically range between 12.5 - 25.2.

Although DVDA doesn't give a hint about it's process, it's slow as sin and with the stellar quality, I feel certain it was doing at least a 2-pass encode.

Next I'm going to try this new 18 mbps AVC disk on some of the other players, to see if I made progress on the compatibility front.

Of course, the new workflow still requires the AVCHD-Patcher/Hex Editor modifications founded by AlluringReality.
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post #1678 of 2482 Old 12-21-2008, 01:24 PM
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Tom,

I have plasma connected via HDMI to PS3. I live in Europe and here we use PAL camcoders 50i (25p). Voltage in Europe is 230V, 50Hz.

My plasma is properly calibrated with AVIA (PAL) and DVE (also PAL) and all image processing circuits are always off because I don't need them for digital video.

Next, PS3....Video settings are almost equal like yours except BD/DVD Cinema Conversion - AUTOMATIC, but I said before that I tried everything on PS3 (and that..VIDEO instead of AUTOMATIC) and it didn't (and shouldn't) make the difference (I didn't have problems with PS3 how it plays video or film content yet).
Display seetings PS3.... Video Output Setting Current Output Resolution - 1080i - well, I tried for m2t both, 1080i and 1080p and it makes no noticeable difference for m2t.....and I know that I can't try 1080p for BDMV AVCHD on PS3 yet - so I have compared AVCHD and m2t on 1080i (and I did it on 720p too).

Green triangle button....AV Settings. for AVCHD and m2t I know I don't have RGB (it's for games only) and I have Super whites set to ON. For m2t playback, from the beginning of new firmware I have all reductions set to off. But I also said before that I tried all PS3 video and display properties (not only ones that I am normally use).

Your last observation is very interesting and helpful, but I also said before that I tried m2t from PS3's HDD and from DVD and didn't notice difference between the two, but I noticed difference between them and AVCHD.

I told before that I saw differences between AVCHD and m2t (m2ts, mpeg2) not only on PS3, but also on two different players on my computer. And they are the same. Artifacts in AVCHD are on the same places like in m2t, but are little bigger. If there is no artifacts in m2t, there is also no artifacts in AVCHD. And I think it is maybe not the problem in AVCHD, maybe is problem in BDMV and maybe it will be the problem on BD BDMV (I saw that indication, but only on computer players, so for me it is still not relevant). PS3 alone is also not relevant, I would like to see how some other Blu-Ray players play that my crazy AVCHD.

So, what is different between your and mine experiments. Different is voltage and freqency and maybe eyes (to be objective, my hardware worked on 230V, 50Hz, your didn't). You didn't see, but I saw. Maybe we are both right, but maybe one of us isn't. People shouldn't believe anybody (nor your experience nor mine emotions). They have to remove the emotion and to be objective.

I just hope I helped people when I said that I made some experiments also with real NTSC m2t files from NTSC HV-30. If they want, they can go out, shoot something really bad and in full auto mode, something what will have flickering artifacts (on bright shiny day with many flashing objects like aluminium frames of windows, white frames of goals and baskets, aluminium outdoor lighting stands and so) - then come home - and experiment.

If people believe to me it's OK because differences in artifacts are not so big that we can't live with them. If they believe to you it is still better because they will be even more happy.

Seso
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post #1679 of 2482 Old 12-21-2008, 02:30 PM
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It would be a lot easier to simply upload a short test clip that specifically shows what you're looking at. Personally I can't really think of many reasons why a Blu-ray related formatting would cause issues, but my interest is mainly around 24p and I haven't looked at interlaced video much except for ATSC recordings.
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post #1680 of 2482 Old 12-21-2008, 08:14 PM
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I took my hybrid 24p AVC 18 mbps disk to the retailer, and tried it in a few Blu-ray players.

It worked perfectly in both the Panasonic BD35 and Sony BDSP350. That's a change since both of those players had problems with my previous higher bitrate (25 mbps) mpeg-2 encodes.

It did not work at all in the Samsung BMP2500 which just read "STOP."
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