Would POTC DMC look and sound as good on HD-DVD? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Would POTC DMC look and sound as good on HD-DVD?
Yes 355 64.31%
No 197 35.69%
Voters: 552. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The argument has been on the HD-DVD side that 30GB is good enough and the extra space is not necessary.

I hope once and for all this release will silence that crowd. And as more titles get this treatment and the quality is on par with POTC DMC in the future more and more people will realize how silly their arguments and logic have been.

So I ask the question now since this movie will be in most of our homes real soon..

So I ask this question not only to Blu-Ray owners but also any HD-DVD supporter, encoder, or plain fanboy to respond.

Would POTC DMC look and sound as good on HD-DVD?
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post #2 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:06 PM
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Based on everything I've seen up to date on both Blu-ray and HD DVD, I have no doubt that this would look just as stellar on HD DVD as it supposedly looks on Blu-ray (supposedly because I have not received my copy yet). I've yet to see a single Blu-ray movie that could not have looked just as good on HD DVD.

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post #3 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:16 PM
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HD DVD can't hit those bitrates. Hell BD is supposed to hit those either.
But most HD DVD/BD titles are pretty much a wash.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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post #4 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:16 PM
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I think it would look about as good with vc-1 but not at those pathetic low bitrates we've seen.
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post #5 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:17 PM
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We will never know, because HDDVD could never acheive the bit-rates via AVC that these contain.

Who cares, I got both formats...and I'm getting these and the Matrix trilogy Tuesday Morning!

but I say no, just because I'm in the Blu-ray area

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post #6 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:19 PM
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On audio side, HD DVD can re-encode the LPCM track with Dolby TrueHD so they should be equal (saving 1/2 of the space since TrueHD can achieve on average 2:1 compression). On the video side, they can encode it with highest bit rate VC-1 so it should be equivalent to the blu-ray AVC encodes. I would say it should be 98~99.9% equivalent maybe with a very small percentage in favor of blu-ray but I doubt 99% of the people can tell any difference if at all.

I am sure if they use the same compressionists they hired for the blu-ray version on the HD DVD version (if they would ever release on HD DVD), the I would say HD DVD can achieve equal quality.

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post #7 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xradman View Post

Based on everything I've seen up to date on both Blu-ray and HD DVD, I have no doubt that this would look just as stellar on HD DVD as it supposedly looks on Blu-ray (supposedly because I have not received my copy yet). I've yet to see a single Blu-ray movie that could not have looked just as good on HD DVD.

If thats the case, why would Disney make a separate disc for extras when they could of just squeezed it on a BD50? Did they just feel like waisting money by throwing in another disc? Or did they actually think an extra disc is going to sell more copies?
Contrary to popular belief, having almost twice the amount of space benefits Audio and Video.
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post #8 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:29 PM
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I'm no compressionist (I'd like to be, though), but if you're simply asking if HD-DVD can achieve the same picture and audio quality, I'd say yes...at the hands of a talented compressionist, that is.

But in pure technical terms, there is no way that HD-DVD can hit those healthy bit-rates of over 40 mbps, simply because the spec doesn't allow it. Do the extra bits ENSURE better picture quality? That's up for debate, really...and the only way we can know for sure is if there was an HD-DVD VC-1 encode of POTC that we can compare with.

My $.02
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post #9 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faux123 View Post

On the video side, they can encode it with highest bit rate VC-1 so it should be equivalent to the blu-ray AVC encodes.

The highest peak I saw is at 48.9Mbps. Are you saying VC1 at 30Mbps is equivalent to AVC at 48.9Mbps? A bold statment IMO!

I say a HD-DVD encode should be "good enough", for HD-DVD fans of course!

regards,

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post #10 of 223 Old 05-17-2007, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

The highest peak I saw is at 48.9Mbps. Are you saying VC1 at 30Mbps is equivalent to AVC at 48.9Mbps? A bold statment IMO!

I say a HD-DVD encode should be "good enough", for HD-DVD fans of course!

regards,

Li On

You cannot compare the bit rate of 2 completely different encodes by its raw number. The only way is to watch the output on the same display hardware and watch it by trained eyes. I am not making a bold claim. I am merely pointing out the path on how HD DVD format can take to achieve equivalent output. I am not a fanboy of either format. I am a fanboy of movie contents

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post #11 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

The highest peak I saw is at 48.9Mbps. Are you saying VC1 at 30Mbps is equivalent to AVC at 48.9Mbps? A bold statment IMO!

I say a HD-DVD encode should be "good enough", for HD-DVD fans of course!

regards,

Li On

A statement backed up by numerous examples isn't exactly what I'd call "bold"...
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post #12 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 12:43 AM
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Realistically, for most of the movie it would look indistinguishable. Certain scenes, however, would looks a bit softer on HD DVD bit-rate VC-1 (from what I've seen of that codec "at it's worst"). Others would show just a smidge more artifacts.

Would you notice a difference if you didn't know which version you were watching and weren't scrutinizing? Probably not. Would you be able to tell the difference in a side by side comparison. Yes, but only during more complex/difficult scenes (night, motion, etc.)

While I'm willing to believe that the extra bitrate doesn't matter all that much in the end, it still matters. I'm NOT willing to believe that VC-1 is made with magic pixie dust whereby it looks equivalent to all other encodes at any bitrate. There's just too much coincidence there: the max bitrate of HD DVD just happens to be the point where a particular codec achieves "perfection" which just happens to match the maximum size of the discs? You couldn't engineer that tight if you tried.

It's time to face logical facts: *if you are being nitpicky* AVC and VC-1 can look better on Blu-ray than HD DVD due to the higher bitrate. However, if you are that nitpicky you probably don't enjoy much of life anyway, so you won't be happy either way.
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post #13 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padriac View Post

Realistically, for most of the movie it would look indistinguishable. Certain scenes, however, would looks a bit softer on HD DVD bit-rate VC-1 (from what I've seen of that codec "at it's worst"). Others would show just a smidge more artifacts.

Would you notice a difference if you didn't know which version you were watching and weren't scrutinizing? Probably not. Would you be able to tell the difference in a side by side comparison. Yes, but only during more complex/difficult scenes (night, motion, etc.)

While I'm willing to believe that the extra bitrate doesn't matter all that much in the end, it still matters. I'm NOT willing to believe that VC-1 is made with magic pixie dust whereby it looks equivalent to all other encodes at any bitrate. There's just too much coincidence there: the max bitrate of HD DVD just happens to be the point where a particular codec achieves "perfection" which just happens to match the maximum size of the discs? You couldn't engineer that tight if you tried.

It's time to face logical facts: *if you are being nitpicky* AVC and VC-1 can look better on Blu-ray than HD DVD due to the higher bitrate. However, if you are that nitpicky you probably don't enjoy much of life anyway, so you won't be happy either way.

And of course none of this can be proved. So any conclusions either way are based on nothing more than suppositions based on assumptions based on what are pretty much apples to oranges comparisons, or at best red apples to granny apples comparisons.
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post #14 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:04 AM
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Going to have to say no - I don't believe that you can get something for nothing, and AVC is just as efficient as VC-1. So, less bitrate = less quality.
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post #15 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

The highest peak I saw is at 48.9Mbps. Are you saying VC1 at 30Mbps is equivalent to AVC at 48.9Mbps? A bold statment IMO!

I say a HD-DVD encode should be "good enough", for HD-DVD fans of course!

regards,

Li On

The max video bitrate assigned for Blu-ray is 40 Mbps based on specs. How did you get the 48.9 Mbps figure (inclusive of audio?)? Blu-ray's video bitrate cannot reach more than 40 Mbps.

40Mbps vs 30Mbps, I don't think the difference in max bitrate is so great that actually makes it very difficult to encode for HD DVD. In addition, the main feature disc only includes audio commentaries and games - making it even more possible to deliver on a DL HD DVD disc. (BD should be doing something that HD DVD cannot yet do and deliver at this point in time instead of pumping up the numbers which I believe the BDA is very good at.)

Also, the next important question is can the video actually be encoded at a lower bitrate and still look the 'same'? (I believe the bitrate was pumped up to take up the extra space.)
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post #16 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:17 AM
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Get a PS3 and the PoTC discs to see for yourself! Some said the BD has a 8Mbps buffer above 40Mbps max and total bandwidth with audio is at around 54Mbps.

regards,

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post #17 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:20 AM
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This whole thread and nearly everything said on it is a complete load of bollocks. Seriously, no idea. This thread should be deleted as it insults the intelligence of everyone who clicks on it thinking a serious discussion based on actual facts instead of "mines bigger than yours therefore better" BS.
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post #18 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

Get a PS3 and the PoTC discs to see for yourself! Some said the BD has a 8Mbps buffer above 40Mbps max and total bandwidth with audio is at around 54Mbps.

regards,

Li On

Thanks for the recommendation... But personally, I'm not really into a PS3 or Blu-ray in the meantime.

I would have preferred a screenshot... 8Mbps buffer? 54Mbps is a theoretical bandwidth, the total bandwidth in practical use never really reached 54Mbps...

I rest my case Correct me if I'm wrong with the 'facts'...
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post #19 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_professor View Post

Thanks for the recommendation... But personally, I'm not really into a PS3 or Blu-ray in the meantime.

I would have preferred a screenshot... 8Mbps buffer? 54Mbps is a theoretical bandwidth, the total bandwidth in practical use never really reached 54Mbps...

I rest my case Correct me if I'm wrong with the 'facts'...

e-professor, what they aren't telling you is the ps3 meassures total bitrate - video and audio and give the one figure. Hence why it is higher than the spec. In reality it isn't. And this is the logic being used in this thread. I refer back to my previous post. Only posted again as you seem half intelligent and are posting facts not supposition based on a bigger number must be better logic
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post #20 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 01:43 AM
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Look as good? Sure.
Sound as good? Not quite, at least not on my A1.
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post #21 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_professor View Post

'Oh great one', I'm sorry but did you see this?

"The max video bitrate assigned for Blu-ray is 40 Mbps based on specs. How did you get the 48.9 Mbps figure (inclusive of audio?)? Blu-ray's video bitrate cannot reach more than 40 Mbps."

from my previous post.... notice the "(inclusive of audio?)" part?

BTW, I'm merely correcting/clarifying what Li On is saying in his previous post that:



A word of advice: The personal attack was totally unnecessary. (If it should be interpreted that way...)

Dude, I was actually defending your position. You questioned if it was inclusive, I confirmed it is and was actaully agreeing with you on everything you have said.
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post #22 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:28 AM
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The PS3 has separate audio and video bitrate counter showing at the same time. For example on DVD we know the max video and audio combined bitrate is at 10mbps. On a normal DVD with DD audio PS3 video bitrate meter peak at around 9.5mbps. On a DVD with 2 channel PCM track (1.5Mbps audio), the video meter peak is around about 8.5Mbps. I never see the combined audio/video bitrate go pass 10mbps. Yes I use the PS3 as DVD player too! Unless someone has specific info on the PS3 video bitrate counts both video and audio bitrate, I believe it counts just the same as DVD playback for the video bitrate only. The audio bitrate counter is shown at the same time too.

Oh, the PS3 bitrate counters keep updating per second so it's readout should be quite accurate IMO.

Seriously, it seems there maybe some change/update on the AVC encoder as such >40Mbps scene never happen before these latest releases, as far as I know.

I say go for it! Let's has a highest bitrate race!

regards,

Li On
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post #23 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

Dude, I was actually defending your position. You questioned if it was inclusive, I confirmed it is and was actaully agreeing with you on everything you have said.

Yep, I noticed that after clicking submit.

My sincere apologies for misunderstanding your post. Everytime I'm in this BD forum, I always have the fear and feeling that something offensive is about to happen...

I've deleted the 'misunderstood post' of mine.
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post #24 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:34 AM
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I hope AVC is more effective then this. Because what happens if Disney want to release a 1,85:1 movie?

That movie will need 33% more bitrate/space if everything is equal.

Take the 3 best releases on HD DVD, and do you honestly think that trowing more bits would helped your viewing pleasure for those titles?

As for why I think Disney choose to release the extras on a second disc. It sells. Did Casino royal look bad because it was only 33GB?

Good movies are as rare as an on topic discussion.
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post #25 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_professor View Post

Yep, I noticed that after clicking submit.

My sincere apologies for misunderstanding your post. Everytime I'm in this BD forum, I always have the fear and feeling that something offensive is about to happen...

I've deleted the 'misunderstood post' of mine.

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post #26 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On View Post

The PS3 has separate audio and video bitrate counter showing at the same time. For example on DVD we know the max video and audio combined bitrate is at 10mbps. On a normal DVD with DD audio PS3 video bitrate meter peak at around 9.5mbps. On a DVD with 2 channel PCM track (1.5Mbps audio), the video meter peak is around about 8.5Mbps. I never see the combined audio/video bitrate go pass 10mbps. Yes I use the PS3 as DVD player too! Unless someone has specific info on the PS3 video bitrate counts both video and audio bitrate, I believe it counts just the same as DVD playback for the video bitrate only. The audio bitrate counter is shown at the same time too.

Oh, the PS3 bitrate counters keep updating per second so it's readout should be quite accurate IMO.

Seriously, it seems there maybe some change/update on the AVC encoder as such >40Mbps scene never happen before these latest releases, as far as I know.

I say go for it! Let's has a highest bitrate race!

regards,

Li On

Not the first time. During Jetstream (Bluscape feature on Flightplan Blu-ray disc), bitrate meter was peaking at 50Mbps.

Link to post describing Jetstream bitrate

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post #27 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 03:01 AM
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Amir himself answered your question. The PS3 meter may has some error margin under some condition. I didn't say it's 100% correct all the time. But that has no relation as saying the video bitrate number include BOTH audio and video rate!

On the other hand, IMO I think it's more likely a encoding issue. As for DVD authoring, many tools simply does NOT allow a >10Mbps encoding. If a AVC encoder has a more "loose" limitation on the bitrate, then maybe sometime the peak can go about the normal max. Of course they also need to be sure the player can handle the encoding. And the current blu-ray player has no problem whatsoever with such high bitrate decoding!

regards,

Li On
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post #28 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 03:37 AM
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To me the high bitrates used for the AVC indicates that not a lot of fine/hand tuning was done by the person doing the compression. Disney did the same thing with Flightplan, which was VC-1.

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post #29 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 03:58 AM
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With that much space you don't need a lot of handtuning or tweaking to get a transparent picture. DVHS is a good example of this. Is it efficient and save space? Probably not, but who cares? This isn't about small internet downloads or files for a cellphone. This is about HD video on a disc with a ton of space.
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post #30 of 223 Old 05-18-2007, 04:13 AM
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I bet the POTC movies would look much better on DVHS. Or better still on Laserdisc

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