The New PQ Tier thread for Blu-Ray - Discussion - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 21859 Old 06-18-2007, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jossix View Post

err, this tier thread appears to be an exact copy of the old one,tier titles and all
platinum,gold, copper etc

What so the alternative would be to start over and throw away all of the positioning already established? I think not...the original OP left these boards because of h8trs and such so I took what was in place and re-used it. So what...who cares. Now we don't start over and can move forward with previously established 'rankings'...I don't see what the big deal is. The original OP hasn't complained to me about it so I don't care; if he (the original OP) wants mention I'm happy to give him cred where cred is due....

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post #242 of 21859 Old 06-18-2007, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eNoize View Post

Hey Austin,

The new Tier thread is looking good; but can I suggest a few changes in the top portion of the first post.



Sky Captain is actually in Tier 3.



I would also delete this part. Other than that, the list is looking good. I'm glad to see plenty of members participating.

Done. Thanks for the feedback.

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post #243 of 21859 Old 06-18-2007, 09:05 AM
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Just finished watching Gothika, it has lots of grain, don't know if it's intentional though, but sharp throughout and better yet it's 1.85:1 aspect ratio. I'd probably place it between Monster House and Saw III
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post #244 of 21859 Old 06-18-2007, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

What so the alternative would be to start over and throw away all of the positioning already established? I think not...the original OP left these boards because of h8trs and such so I took what was in place and re-used it. So what...who cares. Now we don't start over and can move forward with previously established 'rankings'...I don't see what the big deal is. The original OP hasn't complained to me about it so I don't care; if he (the original OP) wants mention I'm happy to give him cred where cred is due....

Actually another alternative would be simply to go to the other forum where the original poster (i.e. Fett) is maintaining his list as he intended.

As for his leaving, Fett's side of the story is that he was IP banned by AVS. Given what I have seen publicly by the mods here over the past few weeks, I tend to believe his side of the story. Thus, Fett could not easily complain to you if he wanted.

Since the OP is now posting elsewhere and maintaining his original list as intended, and this is a direct copy of his work with some blasphemous edits (such as Apocalypto being considered flawless, given its grain every other camera angle), you should expect that many folks are going to feel this is in bad taste. Especially if you consider his post was unstickied, he was IP banned, his thread was deleted, you copied his list, this thread got stickied quickly, and he continued maintaining his work elsewhere.

As for So what...who cares, I'm happy to give him cred where cred is due...., I wonder how J. K. Rowling would react if someone took one of her books and changed the last chapter before publishing it- but offered to give her credit.

Just trying to put some perspective around this.

Cheers,
-BS
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post #245 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigSexy View Post

Actually another alternative would be simply to go to the other forum where the original poster (i.e. Fett) is maintaining his list as he intended.

As for his leaving, Fett's side of the story is that he was IP banned by AVS. Given what I have seen publicly by the mods here over the past few weeks, I tend to believe his side of the story. Thus, Fett could not easily complain to you if he wanted.

Since the OP is now posting elsewhere and maintaining his original list as intended, and this is a direct copy of his work with some blasphemous edits (such as Apocalypto being considered flawless, given its grain every other camera angle), you should expect that many folks are going to feel this is in bad taste. Especially if you consider his post was unstickied, he was IP banned, his thread was deleted, you copied his list, this thread got stickied quickly, and he continued maintaining his work elsewhere.

As for So what...who cares, I'm happy to give him cred where cred is due...., I wonder how J. K. Rowling would react if someone took one of her books and changed the last chapter before publishing it- but offered to give her credit.

Just trying to put some perspective around this.

Cheers,
-BS

Riiiiight cause this is published work so comparing a published author is a fair comparison. This is the internet and a forum - reposting information isn't blasphamous nor is it anywhere near plagarism.

I don't know the whole story or have any problem with Fett at all in fact I have an appreciation for his work here but this is a need that must be met and regardless of the circumstances that's whats being done. His explanations of things worked really well and I'm sure he 'borrowed' their descriptions from somewhere too...if it ain't broke...

Go to the other forum - you are more than welcome too...no issues there. Rather than calling things blasphamy like the placement of apacalypto why not back up those statements with facts and your opinion on what wouldn't be blasphamous?

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post #246 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Riiiiight cause this is published work so comparing a published author is a fair comparison. This is the internet and a forum - reposting information isn't blasphamous nor is it anywhere near plagarism.

I don't know the whole story or have any problem with Fett at all in fact I have an appreciation for his work here but this is a need that must be met and regardless of the circumstances that's whats being done. His explanations of things worked really well and I'm sure he 'borrowed' their descriptions from somewhere too...if it ain't broke...

Go to the other forum - you are more than welcome too...no issues there. Rather than calling things blasphamy like the placement of apacalypto why not back up those statements with facts and your opinion on what wouldn't be blasphamous?

You keep telling us to back up our statements. We have. Yet no changes have been made. I totally agree with his response. Apocalypto does NOT belong in Tier 0. Until it is brought back into Tier 1, I will consider this thread a useless guide to BD PQ.
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post #247 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Garconis View Post

You keep telling us to back up our statements. We have. Yet no changes have been made. I totally agree with his response. Apocalypto does NOT belong in Tier 0. Until it is brought back into Tier 1, I will consider this thread a useless guide to BD PQ.

I like how you consider it useless when one titles is off by one tier (and the last spot at that)...and that title is considered one of the best if not best PQ release so far by respected people (such as Kris Deering).

Why make an issue of it, when there are less defects than something like Scanner Darkly (there is unintentional banding)?

I guess I just don't get it, there is difference of opinion but to go straight to calling something worthless on the basis of Apocalypto being tier 0 (if it isn't maybe none should be, well maybe DMC just due to consistancy)

*edit* what I am trying to say is maybe Apocalypto should drop off on the basis some different sources were used, even though they were reproduced faithfully...but at least Scanner Darkly could come off as well. Is this more about "eye pleasing opinion", a combination faithful to the source plus eye pleasing, or defect free?

I would argue Tier 0 needs to be both eye pleasing and defect free (or damn near). Having film grain in a couple shots when it is a perfect reproduction, should not be an automatic disqualification IMO.

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post #248 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 09:59 AM
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Don't let a few disgruntled people get you down. I think Apocalypto does belong in Tier 0, as do most other people. You will never, ever, appease everyone. Just do your best and that will have to be enough.

Keep up the good work.
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post #249 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 11:12 AM
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hey? what happend? no more controversy about the movies? i miss that reading peoples reviews about PQ.

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post #250 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 11:16 AM
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Watched The Messengers last night and while the movie kind of sucked, the PQ was decent Tier 2 material. Good detail in closeups and outdoor scenes. Darker scenes have some artificating in the shadows, but not much.

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post #251 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Riiiiight cause this is published work so comparing a published author is a fair comparison. This is the internet and a forum - reposting information isn't blasphamous nor is it anywhere near plagarism.

I don't know the whole story or have any problem with Fett at all in fact I have an appreciation for his work here but this is a need that must be met and regardless of the circumstances that's whats being done. His explanations of things worked really well and I'm sure he 'borrowed' their descriptions from somewhere too...if it ain't broke...

Go to the other forum - you are more than welcome too...no issues there. Rather than calling things blasphamy like the placement of apacalypto why not back up those statements with facts and your opinion on what wouldn't be blasphamous?

True, it's not published, but IMO it still isn't cricket to take someone else's work and take it in a different direction (internet or not) without their permission or acknowledgement. In this case, by acknowledgement, I would think this would be done on the first post, and contain a link to his continuing effort to update this/his list.

I wonder what you mean by this is a need that must be met and regardless of the circumstances.
- a) We need a picture quality thread - I agree wholeheartedly. However, Fett is currently meeting this need, just not at AVS.
- b) We need a picture quality thread that is based on popular opinion, rather than one expert's individual and consistent opinion.

There is indeed something to be said for B. The problem of this list being left to the masses (as has been discussed) is a) trollers, b) many folks that vote have only seen a few titles, so have little basis for comparison, c) many of the folks that vote do not have as detailed an eye as the experts (heck, even some experts do not seem to have a good eye), and d) many folks allow their like/dislike of a movie compromise their judging of that movie's picture quality.

However, B does set up an explicit formula, and you eliminate much of the the evil tier-master is wrong feelings. In other words, this method makes the Matrix folks (who thought it should be tier-0 regardless of the flaws - similar to the Apocalypto folks) happier, at the expense of having those movies rated too highly based on their picture quality. For me, I'd rather have an *accurate* ranking of movies based on their PQ alone, then allow that to help me decide what to purchase (example: I love Big Fish, but think Crank is so-so. Since Crank has great PQ, I bought it long before I upgraded my standard-def Big Fish).

-BS
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post #252 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Rather than calling things blasphamy like the placement of apacalypto why not back up those statements with facts and your opinion on what wouldn't be blasphamous?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garconis View Post

You keep telling us to back up our statements. We have. Yet no changes have been made. I totally agree with his response. Apocalypto does NOT belong in Tier 0. Until it is brought back into Tier 1, I will consider this thread a useless guide to BD PQ.

Now to retort to your statement of Apocalypto. I'm pretty sure that Apocalypto has been discussed ad nauseum, and no changes have been made (as Garconis correctly states). While I agree that when Apocalypto's picture quality is good, it is truly amazing, the issue is the grain that pops up on the very next camera angle. A film's picture quality cannot simply be judged on its best part, but on the whole of the movie. If I was asked to place it, I'd chose somewhere between Ant Bully and Casino Royale. With how noticeable/distracting/annoying/frequent the switch is between the good and the bad, I could even be convinced to put it a bit lower.

Ptaaty, the reason that one title can undermine the integrity of the list, is that it is being classified as flawless (or close to it), but has many camera angles with grain, and the constant switching between beautiful and grain makes this issue even more noticeable. If a title that obviously flawed gets moved up to Tier-0 (and ahead of titles such as Chicken Little and Crank), and folks continue to call it out and point to the issues, and it stays as Tier-0, then the list's integrity is compromised.

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Originally Posted by goceltics34 View Post

Don't let a few disgruntled people get you down. I think Apocalypto does belong in Tier 0, as do most other people.

And this is exactly my point as to why popular opinion in determining the tier list is flawed.

Tell me you weren't one of those people who were in favor of tearing down The Garden.

-BS
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post #253 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 02:14 PM
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Heh, this thread doesn't look that much different than Fett's. I thought this was going to be linked to the new Software Review area, maybe using some mysql/php/perl functions to aggregate the data into "tiers."

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post #254 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 02:45 PM
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I don't see Music and Lyrics on the thread. I'd put it around The Departed. You can see the grain (and that's fine it's film), some pics (especially of Drew at breakfast) look really nice, but overall, it's nothing speculator.

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post #255 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BigSexy View Post

Ptaaty, the reason that one title can undermine the integrity of the list, is that it is being classified as flawless (or close to it), but has many camera angles with grain, and the constant switching between beautiful and grain makes this issue even more noticeable. If a title that obviously flawed gets moved up to Tier-0 (and ahead of titles such as Chicken Little and Crank), and folks continue to call it out and point to the issues, and it stays as Tier-0, then the list's integrity is compromised.

I guess the reason it doesn't drop from Tier 0 is the same reason BHD doesn't completely fall off the map...grain isn't an evil thing. That is also one of the big debates with the Teir system....if a transfer is perfect, absolutely true to the master...but the master has grain because it is film based and intentional, do you "punish" it?

People will still like BHD with the grain, because you also get the razor sharp low grain scenes as well. I don't see Apocalypto much differently...just a better transfer, and less grain. Apocalypto, has some film sources, and that is just part of the package. I think it is a worse problem to be introducing artifacts on video or animation (banding, noise) that appear "sharp" rather than to accurately capture film grain on the occasional scene.

This kinda brings you all the way full circle...and you can make the argument you don't have access to the masters, so maybe we should just go by eye candy/pop, or "video based and animation rule all". Something like Apocalypto is clearly doing an excellent job on the transfer, without (well any that I saw) induced artifacts...the video based parts are the most window like of anything...why should we take it down a peg for the film based stuff that was accurately captured as well?

Paul Taatjes
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post #256 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 03:16 PM
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Maybe my eyes are bad, but I didn't see Norbit which I thought was a solid Tier 2.

Suggestion, how about saying a certain teir, such as 4 is on par with premium cable movie channels such as HBO
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post #257 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ptaaty View Post

I guess the reason it doesn't drop from Tier 0 is the same reason BHD doesn't completely fall off the map...grain isn't an evil thing. That is also one of the big debates with the Teir system....if a transfer is perfect, absolutely true to the master...but the master has grain because it is film based and intentional, do you "punish" it?

...why should we take it down a peg for the film based stuff that was accurately captured as well?

My opinion is that the tier system is about picture quality, and not necessarily about the quality of the transfer. I agree totally that without having access to the masters, we cannot accurately judge the transfer.

I know that this is an extreme and fictitious example (some would call it a strawman), but let me create it anyway. If a movie existed, that was filmed in such a low resolution (and this was the filmmaker's intent) that the picture quality were indistinguishable between a perfect hi-def transfer and a standard-def DVD, in which tier would you argue that this BD film should be, if it were a perfect transfer? Based on pure picture quality, I'd argue the bottom of the list. Others would argue director's intent and should be toward the top. I'd predict that if most folks loved the movie, it'd be ranked high. However, if the movie sucked, it's be ranked low under the popular opinion PQ ranking system.

If the creators intended for a movie to have a sub-par picture quality, then I think it should be rated as such. This doesn't mean that it's any less of a movie, just not a movie with great picture quality.

-BS
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post #258 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by the49ola View Post

Suggestion, how about saying a certain teir, such as 4 is on par with premium cable movie channels such as HBO

There is a lot of variance with PQ even on cable/satellite. A great example is that I am currently watching a broadcast of Hogan's Heroes in 1080i.

When my friends ask me, about the best answer I can give them is that at its worst, BD is slightly better than SD-DVD at its best. I then refer them to a thread that compares the two versions of The Fifth Element (Superbit transfer widely considered one of the best standard-def transfers and the BR version which is one of the worst BR transfers). As you can see in the thread (complete with pictures), the BR version is still slightly better.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5&page=1&pp=30

That said, I'm already set up to take advantage of the Sony exchange program. I received my confirmation email today. I'm hoping for Tier-0, but am expecting mid tier-2.

-BS
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post #259 of 21859 Old 06-19-2007, 05:52 PM
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Bridge To Teribithia - mid tier 2 (my opinion)

Some nice 3D pop, especially in the opening titles. Overall clean, sharp picture in some scenes. I could detect no noticeable grain or noise sitting at a reasonable distance. Some of the indoor scenes were fairly drab.

There's a running scene toward the end using a green screen that is very muddy and washed out and looks terrible. But I blame that on WETA.

Story wise, the movie is heavy on the drama with very few moments of fantasy. I wouldn't recommend this for younger children. I enjoyed this movie on a personal level and was thoroughly devastated myself.

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post #260 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Bridge To Teribithia - mid tier 2 (my opinion)

Some nice 3D pop, especially in the opening titles. Overall clean, sharp picture in some scenes. I could detect no noticeable grain or noise sitting at a reasonable distance. Some of the indoor scenes were fairly drab.

There's a running scene toward the end using a green screen that is very muddy and washed out and looks terrible. But I blame that on WETA.

Story wise, the movie is heavy on the drama with very few moments of fantasy. I wouldn't recommend this for younger children. I enjoyed this movie on a personal level and was thoroughly devastated myself.

Done.

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post #261 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by the49ola View Post

Maybe my eyes are bad, but I didn't see Norbit which I thought was a solid Tier 2.

Suggestion, how about saying a certain teir, such as 4 is on par with premium cable movie channels such as HBO

Done

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post #262 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garconis View Post

You keep telling us to back up our statements. We have. Yet no changes have been made. I totally agree with his response. Apocalypto does NOT belong in Tier 0. Until it is brought back into Tier 1, I will consider this thread a useless guide to BD PQ.

My previous comment indicated I'd caved...

I watched the movie all the way through - finally got through the scene where he's chomping on boar nuts - and I saw what people were referring to. Tier 1 yes; Now I haven't seen Crank to compare so its above Crank but below CL/Open Season...

Satisfactory?

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post #263 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigSexy View Post

Now to retort to your statement of Apocalypto. I'm pretty sure that Apocalypto has been discussed ad nauseum, and no changes have been made (as Garconis correctly states). While I agree that when Apocalypto's picture quality is good, it is truly amazing, the issue is the grain that pops up on the very next camera angle. A film's picture quality cannot simply be judged on its best part, but on the whole of the movie. If I was asked to place it, I'd chose somewhere between Ant Bully and Casino Royale. With how noticeable/distracting/annoying/frequent the switch is between the good and the bad, I could even be convinced to put it a bit lower.

Ptaaty, the reason that one title can undermine the integrity of the list, is that it is being classified as flawless (or close to it), but has many camera angles with grain, and the constant switching between beautiful and grain makes this issue even more noticeable. If a title that obviously flawed gets moved up to Tier-0 (and ahead of titles such as Chicken Little and Crank), and folks continue to call it out and point to the issues, and it stays as Tier-0, then the list's integrity is compromised.


And this is exactly my point as to why popular opinion in determining the tier list is flawed.

Tell me you weren't one of those people who were in favor of tearing down The Garden.

-BS

Honestly I think when the tiers got broken down further a few weeks back it added to the confusion...

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post #264 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 06:08 AM
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Battle of the Bulge. Tier 0. Blu


Spoiler....... Germany loses the War.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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post #265 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Ok...I give in. It's now Tier 1 by popular Demand below CL and Open Season.

I watched the movie all the way through - finally got through the scene where he's chomping on boar nuts - and I saw what people were referring to. Tier 1 yes; Now I haven't seen Crank to compare so its above Crank but below CL/Open Season...

Satisfactory?

Yes.
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post #266 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinSTI View Post

Ok...I give in. It's now Tier 1 by popular Demand below CL and Open Season.

I watched the movie all the way through - finally got through the scene where he's chomping on boar nuts - and I saw what people were referring to. Tier 1 yes; Now I haven't seen Crank to compare so its above Crank but below CL/Open Season...

Satisfactory?

Bad move. For a few people complaining you move it? So all it takes is a little complaining from the minority and you cave? You got to go with the majority here if in fact that is the intention of this thread.
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post #267 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 08:14 AM
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Why hasn't Night at the Museum been raised (well) above Tier 3? This is by far the worst placement of any title on this list that I have seen.
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post #268 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by goceltics34 View Post

Bad move. For a few people complaining you move it? So all it takes is a little complaining from the minority and you cave? You got to go with the majority here if in fact that is the intention of this thread.

The majority isn't always right. He said he watched the Blu-ray finally, and he agrees. Maybe the majority needs a better set-up, or better vision, a larger BD collection, or a better understanding of what Tier 0 should really be reserved for.
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post #269 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 08:37 AM
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Story wise, the movie is heavy on the drama with very few moments of fantasy. I wouldn't recommend this for younger children. I enjoyed this movie on a personal level and was thoroughly devastated myself.

I've read the same thing and hope to rent it soon. I have heard it is the My Girl for the next generation.

JD

"Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise." Proverbs 19:20
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post #270 of 21859 Old 06-20-2007, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Why hasn't Night at the Museum been raised (well) above Tier 3? This is by far the worst placement of any title on this list that I have seen.

Definitely should be Tier 1. So should Casino Royale (while both are good titles in no way is Black Hawk Down better PQ than CR). Argh Apocalypto is a Tier 0 title. Crank should be Tier 0, as well, as PQ simply does not get better.

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