Pirates of the Caribbean, big framing problems!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 06:32 PM
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Disney should correct the problem. It is hard to believe this went unnoticed untill now.

Certainly not a tier 0 title with such a major flaw.
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post #182 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole5 View Post

Disney should correct the problem. It is hard to believe this went unnoticed untill now.

Certainly not a tier 0 title with such a major flaw.

I don't recall it being a Teir 0 title to begin with.

Besides, the Teir rating system is overall PQ and transfer.. sharpness, detail, color, contrast, etc. It doesn't cover technical flaws like this.

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post #183 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 07:18 PM
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I think this goes to show that alot of people get their discs, skim through them real quick to get an idea of the PQ/AQ and put them aside to watch at a later time, content that they HAVE the disc when they need it. I do that too. I still have some SDdvds I never got around to watching...

I don't have this disc but if these pics are accurate, how on EARTH could so many "not notice it before". I mean, did everyone think this was some super avant garde shot production like "Requiem for a Dream" with crazy framings?!?!? It's a damn popcorn disney flick. Of COURSE the freaking lead actor's heads shouldn't be missing in shots...!!!!

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post #184 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 07:34 PM
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I didn't notice any framing problems either. Guess I'll have to re-check it as well.
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post #185 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 07:49 PM
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The framing issues are obvious in still photos but in the movie they are very brief. Once you watch them you can understand how you could miss them.

The shot through the rafters at Jack and Will's legs looks normal in the movie. You would never know anything was wrong until you freeze frame it and put it side by side with the DVD version.

The shot with Norrington's head being cut off is only about 3 seconds long and while he's the focal point of the shot he is in the background with rather large portions of the screen taken up by prominent foreground elements. It would be fair to say that since Norrington is addressing the blacksmith my eye was drawn to his reaction and not to Norrington.

I guess we should hope there are a bunch of framing problems so Disney will be forced to reissue the BRD. I'm disappointed this happened given how much effort Disney obviously put into the release.
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post #186 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

I think this goes to show that alot of people get their discs, skim through them real quick to get an idea of the PQ/AQ and put them aside to watch at a later time, content that they HAVE the disc when they need it. I do that too. I still have some SDdvds I never got around to watching...

Well, that's what I did with this one...Dead Man's Chest I watched entirely, but I still have yet to actually sit down to watch Pirates 1 on BD... and now that I'm seeing these screencaps, how did this not come to light earlier? I'm going to give it a watch this weekend, but I used to be a projectionist and things that are misframed is one of my huge pet peeves, so I'm surprised it took so long for people to notice...
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post #187 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 08:16 PM
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Ok.....I just finished watching the entire film. The first portion with the head cut off while he is speaking is maybe a second or so and it is just the top of his head from the eyes up. I'm using a PS3 and a Sony KV-34XBR800.

As stated earlier, the main focus of the scene is in the foreground and this one second framing issue is really of no consequence to the flow of the film.

The rafters is really the only other scene where this issue crops up again and unless you viewed the DVD previous to this you would never even know that you were suppossed to see the entire body of both actors. Again, it does nothing to disrupt the movie. It's another two second clip.

The rest of the film looks fine to me.

After watching now I know why no one has noticed this. I doubt anyone watched the DVD first and then the BD to compare.

I do applaud the OP for noticing this and it should be brought to Disney's attention for at least an expanation.

However, having said that, I see no reason for me to waste my time clamoring for a new remake of the disc. Those two "mistakes" if they really are that did not in any way spoil my enjoyment of this film.

You people had me super worried and worked up. With the Paramount deal last week, I was tired of being worked up.

I can now keep from slitting my wrists and move on with my life!

Good night!
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post #188 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cawgijoe View Post

I can now keep from slitting my wrists and move on with my life!

TOO SOON!

<---------------An Owen Wilson fan
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post #189 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 08:47 PM
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I watched the BD when it came out and spent some time previewing scenes tonight. There are definitely a few scenes here and there were the framing seems weird, and if it's incorrect it should be fixed.

But it's not pervasive through the film. Most shots I looked at had the object of attention framed well.

Makes you wonder how they put a transfer together if some scenes can be affected but not others.

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post #190 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 08:56 PM
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I just checked it with my DVD and BD (on my PS3). It happens in the scene shown here in multiple shots, and in the next scene.

Do a chapter skip, then pause it as soon as the dog is shown with the keys. In the DVD version you can see the dog's ears and the top of its head, and the keys hanging are cut off. On BD, the top of the dog's head is cut off, with the eyes right beneath the black bar, and the bottom shows the bottom of the keys with lots of space below that.

In this scene, and in the duel scene first mentioned, looks like the BD transfer has everything shifted upwards a lot, like the bottom of the frame shown above the black bar should actually be starting at the bottom of the bottom black bar.


Checked some other scenes/shots. Some are bad, some are close but still shifted up on the BD version.
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post #191 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 09:00 PM
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Gj to the OP for picking up on this. It'd be interesting to see if either he or Xylon can spot more.
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post #192 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkaroo View Post

Makes you wonder how they put a transfer together if some scenes can be affected but not others.

Just a theory: I think the problem is that not all shots had the 2.35:1 frame in the same place. Most has the theatrical frame in the center. Some had the theatrical frame near the top. For some reason this newest transfer of POTC didn't take this into account and all the top heavy shots are shown incorrectly.
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post #193 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the main focus here is not how bad it is and if it only obstructs the movie plot vise in a couple of shots.
The main focus is that it is there and that it is not only for one shot, but for a couple of minutes.

And as I said before, not all the shots are mis framed, the mis framed ones are the one where Disney "forgot" to re frame...
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post #194 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:00 PM
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Denner, thank you for causing so many of us to waste a bunch of time looking into this non-issue.

Looking at the scenes "in context" of the larger series of scenes, it seems to me that that DVD framing was wrong and that most directors would not be shifting the matte up and down between shots but rather would shoot the scene keeping in mind where the centre of the frame is in the shot. Most shots in this film would look wrong if the matte was always at the top of the frame.

Analysis of Norington scene:
When I looked at the camera movement from just before the commander Norington scene I saw the camera move down lower to be sitting below looking up and the focus is not on Norington but the foreground rifles to frame the frame with a certain tension. Had the intent of the director been to show Norinton's head, the focus would not be on the foreground guns and the camera would not be so low to the ground. I also looked at the scene right after and the camera is looking from above and noticed that Norington is much taller than the drunken blacksmith which would mean cutting off the hair of Norington would be unavoidable if you did not want to cut off too much of the shorter character.

Analysis of fight in the rafters:
Looking at this scene, we again see the camera is always below the characters looking up to give us the impression of the character climbing high up for the battle. Some of you complain about the characters being cut off but again, I see the matte being at the centre of the original frame as it usually should be and how it appears to be through out the movie. Also note that there are quite a few shots with just the feet in view during the battle.

Denner, I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are indeed a director but not all directors are accomplished camera operators and I'm basing my analysis on camera movement, apparent camera position relative to the actors and the context of the scene.

I believe the original DVD issues were done haphazardly and the director may not have been paying too much atttention to the framing of that release because it was being released as both Fullscreen (pan and scan) and widescreen.

Unfortunately, we don't have access to the film on the big screen at the moment to do a proper comparison unless someone has a trailer lying around with clips from those scenes from the original theatrical release.

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post #195 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:04 PM
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GLAD i didn't buy curse of the black pearl yet.
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post #196 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

You are not the only one. PQ on this one is not that good.

I agree also - the edge enhancement alone means that it's not a 5/5.

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post #197 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

I agree also - the edge enhancement alone means that it's not a 5/5.

That's funny, none of the reviews of the blu-ray release mentioned any problems with it.

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IMO, Blu-ray is not a bad product - just an unnecessary one.

That's from your review of the PS 3 on review site you link to.

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post #198 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

I'll bet someone has a CAM version of the theater release lying around.

I'm a bit of an amateur videographer/photographer and I've studied how several famous directors frame their shots and how they use camera position/angles to convey a certain feeling/mood in a given scene.

I believe that creating the right mood for a scene is accomplished by a combination of camera position, camera angle the final framing/blocking of a shot in post production. Denner seems to disagree with the decisions made but that does not necessarily mean they are wrong. It is equally possible that the DVD framing was done by some intern without having director approval of every scene.

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post #199 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post

Denner, thank you for causing so many of us to waste a bunch of time looking into this non-issue.
...

Analysis of Norington scene:
When I looked at the camera movement from just before the commander Norington scene I saw the camera move down lower to be sitting below looking up and the focus is not on Norington but the foreground rifles to frame the frame with a certain tension. Had the intent of the director been to show Norinton's head, the focus would not be on the foreground guns and the camera would not be so low to the ground. I also looked at the scene right after and the camera is looking from above and noticed that Norington is much taller than the drunken blacksmith which would mean cutting off the hair of Norington would be unavoidable if you did not want to cut off too much of the shorter character.
...


Sorry. I have to disagree with you. Norrington IS the focus of that scene, not the foreground props. No competent director/DP would frame the shot this way and Verbinski/Wolski are certainly more than competent.

As for the snark you're throwing at Denner, by all means, go the bed tonight cuddling your copy of POTC:COTBP on BRD in your arms and waste no more of your time. You do have something better to do, don't you? The rest us can continue wasting our time as we see fit.
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post #200 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcc View Post

I wonder if there's a problem with the second POTC movie?

There is a laundry list of problems with the second POTC movie.
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post #201 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:33 PM
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What we know so far... The dvd's framing is correct. The broadcast HD version is correct. The version on the BRD is freaking people out.
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post #202 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZebraMajor View Post

Sorry. I have to disagree with you. Norrington IS the focus of that scene, not the foreground props. No competent director/DP would frame the shot this way and Verbinski/Wolski are certainly more than competent.

As for the snark you're throwing at Denner, by all means, go the bed tonight cuddling your copy of POTC:COTBP on BRD in your arms and waste no more of your time. You do have something better to do, don't you? The rest us can continue wasting our time as we see fit.

Whatever dude. Look at the camera movement (downward) when the soldier come bursting in. That cuts off the soldiers even if the framing was consistently supposed to be higher.

Look at the camera angle of that Norington scheme and how the guns are there in the frame foreground helping to "frame" the shot and convey a specific emotional tension regardless of where the optical focus is. The camera position was deliberate and I do not believe a director would shoot and then frame one scene at the top of the original frame and in the middle for most of the rest.

I really don't have time to go back and check them again today as I have to get some sleep as it's another work day tomorrow.

A member of another forum agrees with me. Here is what he said:
Quote:


The "Norington" scene is actually a point of view shot of the fallen Jack Sparrow (Captain Jack Sparrow), in other words, the camera is where the fallen Captain would lie, almost like what the subjective point of view would be from someone that has been rendered unconscious.

The rafters shot is to emphasize the fancy foot work done by them hopping from the beams.

Open matte photography. Always brings this controversy. Obviously the War Room must be 1.375 because the circular lights are in the open matte (Not because the circular lights were done THAT way to give that kind of overhead illumination on the 1.85 frame as Kubrick wanted).


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post #203 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What we know so far... The dvd's framing is correct. The broadcast HD version is correct. The version on the BRD is freaking people out.

We do? Never assume. You know what happens when you assume don't you?

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post #204 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:47 PM
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Well you're assuming the BRD version is correct when it looks funky.
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post #205 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post

Whatever dude. Look at the camera movement (downward) when the soldier come bursting in. That cuts off the soldiers even if the framing was consistently supposed to be higher.

Look at the camera angle of that Norington scheme and how the guns are there in the frame foreground helping to "frame" the shot and convey a specific emotional tension regardless of where the optical focus is. The camera position was deliberate and I do not believe a director would shoot and then frame one scene at the top of the original frame and in the middle for most of the rest.

I really don't have time to go back and check them again today as I have to get some sleep as it's another work day tomorrow.


I'll give this a recheck tomorrow as well. We'll see what Disney's official response is. Our opinions clearly differ and that's fine but why take a shot at Denner?
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post #206 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 11:14 PM
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Did anyone bother to see if this was the only scene is this completely broken release? Or was it really only one scene that aparently is up for discussion so maybe whoever "broke" it in post might have thought the same things the posters here do.. that this is how it should be framed..

awesome, without looking i would take a wild guess and say a few extreme HD-DVD supporters might have added to the flames all in the name of freedom of course.

Love!
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post #207 of 602 Old 08-29-2007, 11:53 PM
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WOW, some of you guys will defend Blu-Ray no matter what, but this is not a format issue. They clearly a F'edup. Back to the Future had the same problem when it came out on DVD

Given time I sure they will replace the discs just like BTTF, but just because it is Blu-Ray does not mean you should except it no questions asked.

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post #208 of 602 Old 08-30-2007, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Mom I see headless people....

DVD


BLU



DVD


BLU



DVD


BLU


And a close-up of the Blu-Ray to showing that they are standing very close to the floor all of a sudden, and I don't think that it was what the director had in mind when he shot this....
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post #209 of 602 Old 08-30-2007, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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DVD


BLU



DVD


BLU
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post #210 of 602 Old 08-30-2007, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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DVD


BLU



DVD


BLU



And the problem continues.....

DVD


BLU



DVD


BLU



And yes I am a stubborn bastard..... I think this shovs that it is not just one or two frames that is the problem but a lot more
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