Tier thread for audio - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2680 Old 02-24-2008, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post


I think you are being overly critical of just how much stuff you think isn't in a film soundtrack.



That is my old mixing room on the page, but none of those people are me, so don't ask

But with the tools we have available to use today, surrounds still, even at their best, are a cheap imitation of reality, and require a lot of brain power when using them for ambient sounds... and once again, I use them a lot in my mixing, as do most directors, but remember that we are trying to tell a story, and even though I know you disagree, I hope I have given you some of the reasons why we don't use it to the extent you think we should...

Trust me, I am a relative youngster as a mixer mixing the kind of films I have.... I work with a lot of first time feature directors (not all young and inexperienced) and a lot of people who have been doing this for years... most of them aren't afraid to use sound, they just don't like it when you break the illusion. And using a fixed, bandwidth limited array of surround speakers can do that quicker than anything else

I don't talk a lot about the projects that I have mixed, but I have a film coming out on Tuesday that is one of the most interesting things I have done, and I am hoping that people who love film have a chance to see and hear it..

It is called "Slipstream" and is only coming out on SD DVD... if you have a chance, take a listen and let me know what you think.. It is very arty, very self indulgent, very weird, but one of the projects I am most proud of....

I hear ya (no pun intended). I guess since I have hybrid dipole/bipole side surrounds in my 7.1 system, I don't think the illusion is easily broken. To me it does just widen the stage when there is more surround information. But perhaps it does break the illusion more for those with direct radiating side surrounds.

I do think there are still many films where great opportunities for interesting sound cues are lost. I so hate it when there is a rain scene, and the rain is not all around you. ; ) Perhaps I've just come to expect that as more of the norm.

Perhaps that will change as time goes on and more people experience 5.1 and 7.1 routinely.

I will look for "Slipstream" - sounds interesting.
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post #272 of 2680 Old 02-24-2008, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by caesar1 View Post

I hear ya (no pun intended). I guess since I have hybrid dipole/bipole side surrounds in my 7.1 system, I don't think the illusion is easily broken. To me it does just widen the stage when there is more surround information. But perhaps it does break the illusion more for those with direct radiating side surrounds.

I do think there are still many films where great opportunities for interesting sound cues are lost. I so hate it when there is a rain scene, and the rain is not all around you. ; ) Perhaps I've just come to expect that as more of the norm.

Perhaps that will change as time goes on and more people experience 5.1 and 7.1 routinely.

I will look for "Slipstream" - sounds interesting.

Regrading the rain... sometimes the directors don't want to redo that performance with ADR, and are tied to a lot of rain in the dialog recording, and if so, it would have to be so loud in the surrounds to overcome what is in the center it isn't practical.
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post #273 of 2680 Old 02-24-2008, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

take it easy man, and have a closer look at the list. it's in alphabetical order.


jkcheng,

Well now, don't I feel like an idiot. Sorry for the commotion there is nothing to see here...
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post #274 of 2680 Old 02-25-2008, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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jkcheng,

Well now, don't I feel like an idiot. Sorry for the commotion there is nothing to see here...

it's all good
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post #275 of 2680 Old 02-25-2008, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

As someone who's work gets tier scores, of course I find it strange.

It's totally subjective.

Where is the criteria for what makes a title a tier whatever.. the picture thread has criteria laid out that one can reasonably compare a given title to... and like anything in life, it still leaves a lot of room for personal opinion and preference.

For me, the only thing that matters is if the soundtrack helps to tell the story, and Yuma does that in spades. To me, it's much more difficult for a track to do it's magic with subtlety than bombast, and even harder on a home theater to re-create those track as intended.

Giving out arbitrary scores only provides an opinion of what people think makes their system sound best... or what makes their surrounds come to life, or the sub boom, or whatever is important to them.

Reviewing and rating soundtracts is flawed if you don't have any idea what the intention of the director was and if you helped bring that intention to fruition, and can compare that to other films.. and even at that, it is a subjective opinion.

I mixed "In The Valley Of Elah." In the HiDefDigest review, they said the sound would be better if we had included some extra sounds in certain scenes...

While that's a fine opinion, there are reasons that serve the story why those sounds aren't there.. like creating an off putting, not quite right sense of isolation for the main characters... both self removed from society and trying to piece together a horrific crime. We left out the highway sounds ann tumbleweeds to further remove them from their world at large.. we tried putting more in, but it completely pulled your ear away from the silence and the tension the characters... it's what the director wanted, and intended, from the script onward.




Can you name one? Just curious.

Since the elements we make for the theatrical mix are tied together, it would take a great effort to "botch" it up and then have it approved by all concerned parties and released for public consumption.

I can only name a handful of times where extraordinary effort went into remixing for home video from units and predubs, and while the tracks was praised in the public, the original sound crews wasn't happy at all by the results..

Just .02 from someone who's work is routinely critiqued on these forums, and tiered by a new breed of "online" home theater journalists and reviewers, most of whom are vetted by neither education or experience, but by their access to a computer and keyboard.

Amen to that,thanks for always offering truly insightful opinions and education.
BTW,what's your take on Kevin O'Connnel not getting an oscar after 20 nominations,if of course you feel comfortable discussing it.
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post #276 of 2680 Old 02-25-2008, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

As someone who's work gets tier scores, of course I find it strange.

It's totally subjective.

Where is the criteria for what makes a title a tier whatever.. the picture thread has criteria laid out that one can reasonably compare a given title to... and like anything in life, it still leaves a lot of room for personal opinion and preference.

For me, the only thing that matters is if the soundtrack helps to tell the story, and Yuma does that in spades. To me, it's much more difficult for a track to do it's magic with subtlety than bombast, and even harder on a home theater to re-create those track as intended.

Giving out arbitrary scores only provides an opinion of what people think makes their system sound best... or what makes their surrounds come to life, or the sub boom, or whatever is important to them.

Reviewing and rating soundtracts is flawed if you don't have any idea what the intention of the director was and if you helped bring that intention to fruition, and can compare that to other films.. and even at that, it is a subjective opinion.

I mixed "In The Valley Of Elah." In the HiDefDigest review, they said the sound would be better if we had included some extra sounds in certain scenes...

While that's a fine opinion, there are reasons that serve the story why those sounds aren't there.. like creating an off putting, not quite right sense of isolation for the main characters... both self removed from society and trying to piece together a horrific crime. We left out the highway sounds ann tumbleweeds to further remove them from their world at large.. we tried putting more in, but it completely pulled your ear away from the silence and the tension the characters... it's what the director wanted, and intended, from the script onward.




Can you name one? Just curious.

Since the elements we make for the theatrical mix are tied together, it would take a great effort to "botch" it up and then have it approved by all concerned parties and released for public consumption.

I can only name a handful of times where extraordinary effort went into remixing for home video from units and predubs, and while the tracks was praised in the public, the original sound crews wasn't happy at all by the results..

Just .02 from someone who's work is routinely critiqued on these forums, and tiered by a new breed of "online" home theater journalists and reviewers, most of whom are vetted by neither education or experience, but by their access to a computer and keyboard.



It is totally subjective which is why I like this thread better then the ego inflated picture thread. I think you would also agree that audio by it' s nature is more subjective then video to begin with. And let's not forget a fact that a calibrated TV will look the same in every room, but a speaker will sound possibly very different even if the sound system is calibrated. Acoustics are far more complicated to fix then different ambient light outputs.

I do agree that many people rate these tracks based on what sounds good on their system, but in most cases that's the only system they hear, and can't compare it to professional equipment like you do. Of course there are some who compare sound with theaters that they attended months ago. Those should look up how human auditory system works, before they even thinking about to post on those comparisons. I wonder what your opinion of a typical megaplex type theater's ability to reproduce the soundtrack the way you've heard it, on your mixing stage?


Anyway I laid down a few pages ago my criterias of what I look for to rate a soundtrack. I'm sure some won't agree with it, but that's ok with me. I also can't account for artistic intent, since unlike you I don't know what was the intent. So I think when people new to the thread come here should take these ratings with a grain of salt but with an open mind, and don't take it too seriously. Just having fun.

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post #277 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by alexg75 View Post

BTW,what's your take on Kevin O'Connnel not getting an oscar after 20 nominations,if of course you feel comfortable discussing it.

Alex... as you can see by my predictions, it's obvious that I have no idea what the academy is going to do

In regards to Kevin O'Connell, I think that any nomination is quite a feat, and obviously 20 is pretty amazing. I think that says something about how much he is respected by his peers, as they do the nominating.

Because of the nature of how the winners are picked, it isn't surprising that the films that he works on are overlooked for the Oscar by the generally older, actor heavy membership.. movies like "Transformers" aren't their thing.

I thiknk that he will get his statue soon.
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post #278 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 11:11 AM
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Hey guys, I just picked up some Definitive Technology speakers and i'm looking for a BR with reference audio. Any suggestions on a BR that can really push my system?

SEMPER FI
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post #279 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Alex... as you can see by my predictions, it's obvious that I have no idea what the academy is going to do

In regards to Kevin O'Connell, I think that any nomination is quite a feat, and obviously 20 is pretty amazing. I think that says something about how much he is respected by his peers, as they do the nominating.

Because of the nature of how the winners are picked, it isn't surprising that the films that he works on are overlooked for the Oscar by the generally older, actor heavy membership.. movies like "Transformers" aren't their thing.

I thiknk that he will get his statue soon.

Thanks........
And you are right about his work being overlooked,but I'm sure he'll get one at some point.
I would also like to mention that one of my favorite mixes that you have worked on is NACHO LIBRE.
Yes for many of the "pros" here it may not meet the strigent criteria for surround sound,but in my humble opinion,the mix just works on every level.It happens to be a bit of a favorite movie of mine but that's beside the point,you and the team did a great job of enhancing the story and helping to create the illusion of the strange world of NACHO.
I was very impressed with how you guys got some of those very rare,obscure tracks to sound.What was that process like?
If you don't mind sharing......
Thanks from a fan........
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post #280 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by alexg75 View Post

Thanks........
And you are right about his work being overlooked,but I'm sure he'll get one at some point.
I would also like to mention that one of my favorite mixes that you have worked on is NACHO LIBRE.
Yes for many of the "pros" here it may not meet the strigent criteria for surround sound,but in my humble opinion,the mix just works on every level.It happens to be a bit of a favorite movie of mine but that's beside the point,you and the team did a great job of enhancing the story and helping to create the illusion of the strange world of NACHO.
I was very impressed with how you guys got some of those very rare,obscure tracks to sound.What was that process like?
If you don't mind sharing......
Thanks from a fan........

Alex thanks.. I love that track too. As a side not, David G, who I mixed the film with, was nominated for an Oscar this year for 3:10.

About the music... There is nothing really fancy about my approach.. most of those songs needed quite a bit of EQ and a little touch of compression.. I am a big fan of getting as much low end as I can out of the tracks, and some of those were challenging not only because of their age, but some times obscure also stands for cheaply produced. On Nacho, I added a little reverb only in the surrounds to try and get some depth to the tracks.

Once again, thanks for the kind words...
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post #281 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Alex thanks.. I love that track too. As a side not, David G, who I mixed the film with, was nominated for an Oscar this year for 3:10.

About the music... There is nothing really fancy about my approach.. most of those songs needed quite a bit of EQ and a little touch of compression.. I am a big fan of getting as much low end as I can out of the tracks, and some of those were challenging not only because of their age, but some times obscure also stands for cheaply produced. On Nacho, I added a little reverb only in the surrounds to try and get some depth to the tracks.

Once again, thanks for the kind words...

Oh yeah,I didn't catch that regarding David G.
Yeah that's what really impressed me about the music tracks on NACHO,they didn't sound overly processed.I really loved your approach as the tracks sounded full and I'm sure waaaaaaay better than how they came in to you.
Do you ever revisit your mixes on your home system?
Or do you have burn-out from having worked on them for so long?
If you do,how do they stand up for you in the Home Theater environment?
I also noticed that you mixed the feature NEVER BACK DOWN,which looks interesting,any insight on the mix?
As you can tell I am fascinated by what you do and can probably ask a million questions.
And thanks for taking the time to respond.......
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post #282 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by alexg75 View Post

Do you ever revisit your mixes on your home system?
Or do you have burn-out from having worked on them for so long?
If you do,how do they stand up for you in the Home Theater environment?
I also noticed that you mixed the feature NEVER BACK DOWN,which looks interesting,any insight on the mix?
As you can tell I am fascinated by what you do and can probably ask a million questions.
And thanks for taking the time to respond.......

I try and pick up most of my films.. don't have a lot of time to listen, unfortunately. Only some people burn me out

Most of the gear I've picked over the years gives me a pretty good representation of what I am used to.

Never Back Down is loud and big, I will say that.. loudest thing I've mixed, and tons of sub.

I live in Burbank, so we'll have to get together for a chat sometimes
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post #283 of 2680 Old 02-26-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I try and pick up most of my films.. don't have a lot of time to listen, unfortunately. Only some people burn me out

Most of the gear I've picked over the years gives me a pretty good representation of what I am used to.

Never Back Down is loud and big, I will say that.. loudest thing I've mixed, and tons of sub.

I live in Burbank, so we'll have to get together for a chat sometimes

Oh that would be great! I would really be honored.Keep me posted
Tons of sub?
Well that should automatically get it ranked very high here in this thread and satisfy the "pros"
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post #284 of 2680 Old 02-27-2008, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilDog151 View Post

Hey guys, I just picked up some Definitive Technology speakers and i'm looking for a BR with reference audio. Any suggestions on a BR that can really push my system?

Anything ranked in tier 0 should put a smile on your face
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post #285 of 2680 Old 02-27-2008, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilDog151 View Post

Hey guys, I just picked up some Definitive Technology speakers and i'm looking for a BR with reference audio. Any suggestions on a BR that can really push my system?

Black Hawk Down, is definitelly a track that would test your system capabilities. The LFE on the scene called "irene" reaches dangerously low with 8hz fundamentals and very loud as well, so be sure your sub has protection [most do]. Have fun

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post #286 of 2680 Old 02-27-2008, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Black Hawk Down, is definitelly a track that would test your system capabilities. The LFE on the scene called "irene" reaches dangerously low with 8hz fundamentals and very loud as well, so be sure your sub has protection [most do]. Have fun

Just curious how you know what the frequency content is?
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post #287 of 2680 Old 02-27-2008, 10:00 PM
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Black Hawk Down, is definitelly a track that would test your system capabilities. The LFE on the scene called "irene" reaches dangerously low with 8hz fundamentals and very loud as well, so be sure your sub has protection [most do]. Have fun

Thanks, I added it to my que on netflix. I'm definitely looking forward to hearing some good lows on my SVS sub. I watched Underworld last night and it was awesome! It was pretty sweet when I changed the audio setting from Dolby digital to Uncompressed 5.1 mid movie. My wife freaked out and told me to turn it down. Great sound from that movie.

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post #288 of 2680 Old 02-28-2008, 01:30 AM
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Just curious how you know what the frequency content is?


I thought you're never ask.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...34&postcount=1

this is just the latest waterfall on the scene, this scene is almost mandatory for bass/sub aficionados.

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post #289 of 2680 Old 02-28-2008, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

I thought you're never ask.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...34&postcount=1

this is just the latest waterfall on the scene, this scene is almost mandatory for bass/sub aficionados.

Thanks. I just bought BHD and will check out this scene.
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post #290 of 2680 Old 03-01-2008, 03:37 PM
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Does anyone have a link to a thread here on AVS or elsewhere where you can find a list of the best "demo" sections of BluRays/DVD to show off your audio system, with the Chapter/Time Code info given so you can jump to that part of the movie?
This would be interesting
Thanks

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post #291 of 2680 Old 03-01-2008, 03:51 PM
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Does anyone have a link to a thread here on AVS or elsewhere where you can find a list of the best "demo" sections of BluRays/DVD to show off your audio system, with the Chapter/Time Code info given so you can jump to that part of the movie?
This would be interesting
Thanks

I'd start with the title list on the first page of this thread and then find action scenes within the ones in the top tier.
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post #292 of 2680 Old 03-02-2008, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Does anyone have a link to a thread here on AVS or elsewhere where you can find a list of the best "demo" sections of BluRays/DVD to show off your audio system, with the Chapter/Time Code info given so you can jump to that part of the movie?
This would be interesting
Thanks

that kind of defeats the purpose of this forums as we're here to enjoy movies. these tier threads can help us id the films that feature great video/audio quality. but to specify a specific undermines why we're all here imo.
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post #293 of 2680 Old 03-02-2008, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglerxt View Post

Does anyone have a link to a thread here on AVS or elsewhere where you can find a list of the best "demo" sections of BluRays/DVD to show off your audio system, with the Chapter/Time Code info given so you can jump to that part of the movie?
This would be interesting
Thanks

Here ya go. Some great standard def demos to download. No blu-ray yet:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ight=demo+tree
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post #294 of 2680 Old 03-02-2008, 06:20 AM
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Rescue Dawn Tier 1 (DTS HD MA)
A rather standard fare as far as soundtracks goes. Lots of nature noise due to the "jungle" locations the film took place. One interesting bit though that most what's on the screen is recorded either on set or at least on location, which these days are rarity. Music gets a very low key presentation and volume, one has to visit the extras to get an explanation why.Klaus Badelt can actually compose something it is worth listening to. This is not a war movie per se, so it won't get a lot of "action" scenes with , loud shoot outs, though director Herzog does consider sound important part of the story, and this BD do justice to that i'm sure. An excellent track all in all.

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post #295 of 2680 Old 03-02-2008, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Rescue Dawn Tier 1 (DTS HD MA)
A rather standard fare as far as soundtracks goes. Lots of nature noise due to the "jungle" locations the film took place. One interesting bit though that most what's on the screen is recorded either on set or at least on location, which these days are rarity. Music gets a very low key presentation and volume, one has to visit the extras to get an explanation why.Klaus Badelt can actually compose something it is worth listening to. This is not a war movie per se, so it won't get a lot of "action" scenes with , loud shoot outs, though director Herzog does consider sound important part of the story, and this BD do justice to that i'm sure. An excellent track all in all.

added
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post #296 of 2680 Old 03-04-2008, 06:19 AM
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O.K., so can someone direct me to the thread that explains all of this?

3:10 to Yuma (LPCM)
Air Force One (lgans316)
APOCALYPTO (LPCM)
AvP (DTS-HD MA)
BLACK HAWN DOWN (LPCM)
Cars (LPCM) (thehun)
Chris Botti Live with Orchestra and Special Guests (LPCM 24bit 13.8Mbps)
Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds: Live at Radio City (24bit TrueHD)
The Day After Tomorrow (DTS-MA core) (John Ballentine)
The Descent (LPCM) (thehun)
Die Hard 4.0 (DTS-HD MA)
Face/Off (LPCM) (lgans316)
The Fifth Element (Remastered) (16bit LPCM)
Final Fantasy: Spirits Within (LPCM) (thehun)
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (jedi.night)
Immortal Beloved (TrueHD)
House of 1000 Corpses (7.1 DTS HD) (OhioMike)
House of Flying Daggers (16bit LPCM) (jkcheng122)
Ghost in the Shell: Innocence (LPCM)
Kingdom of Heaven: The Director's Cut (DTS-MA)
Legends of Jazz Showcase with Ramsey Lewis (TrueHD) (RioRebel)
Monster House (LPCM) (thehun)
Mr. & Mrs. Smith (DTS-HD MA)
NiN Live: Beside You in Time (TrueHD)
Pan's Labyrinth (DTS-HD:MA Core)
The Patriot (LPCM) (lgans316)
Pearl Harbor (LPCM) (lgans316)
Ratatouille (LPCM)
Reign of Fire (LPCM) (mapmustang)
Saw III (LPCM) (jewing1043)
Spiderman 2 (TrueHD) (thehun)
Spiderman 3 (robertc88)
Stomp the Yard (TrueHD) (roberc88)
The Transporter 2 (DTS-HD MA)
Underworld (16bit LPCM)
War (7.1 LPCM)
X-Men: The Last Stand (DTS-MA)


LPCM - 5.1, 7.1, 16 bit, 24 bit, 24 bit 13.8Mbps

DTS - 5.1, 7.1, HD, MA, HD-MA, HD-MA Core

DD - 5.1, 7.1, TrueHD, 16 and 24 bit TrueHD

I have a VSX-92, but am wanting to get a player to take advantage of all the sourround formats. Am I correct in my understanding that it's still just the PS3 that can do all of these. And if so, is there one setting on the PS3 to use all of these formats or do I need to switch back and forth from LPCM to other outputs?

Sorry for the highjack. Just want to get my gear and start listening/watching.
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post #297 of 2680 Old 03-04-2008, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjcruiser View Post

LPCM - 5.1, 7.1, 16 bit, 24 bit, 24 bit 13.8Mbps

DTS - 5.1, 7.1, HD, MA, HD-MA, HD-MA Core

DD - 5.1, 7.1, TrueHD, 16 and 24 bit TrueHD

I have a VSX-92, but am wanting to get a player to take advantage of all the sourround formats. Am I correct in my understanding that it's still just the PS3 that can do all of these. And if so, is there one setting on the PS3 to use all of these formats or do I need to switch back and forth from LPCM to other outputs?

Sorry for the highjack. Just want to get my gear and start listening/watching.

not sure what the list of movie titles were for besides taking up space, but just wanted to tell you PS3 does not handle all formats. PS3 is unable (yet) to decode DTS-HD and DTS-HD:MA, you will only get the Core track. as for a player that does, there should be a list in the Blu-ray hardware section that has a comparison chart with all the functions checked.

i'm not sure when the Panny BD-50 is coming out, but that seems to be the best bet right now as it is profile 2.0 and "decodes" all formats. Sony also has a player coming out that will decode all audio formats, the S550 or something. both players are likely to retail for $499.99.
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post #298 of 2680 Old 03-05-2008, 06:57 PM
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I'm a bit surprised that "David Gilmour's Remember That Night" isn't on the list. The Dolby True-HD track is fantastic. You can tell that extra care was put into the sound reproduction on the disc. The video is a bit grainy but that shouldn't change the AQ rating.

I would put it in tier 0.

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post #299 of 2680 Old 03-06-2008, 09:33 AM
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I have some real high expectations for the March releases that I'm picking up especially for ID4, I Robot, and I Am Legend. My poor neighbors!

I'll let you folks know asap after I rock my apartment!
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post #300 of 2680 Old 03-06-2008, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by robertc88 View Post

I have some real high expectations for the March releases that I'm picking up especially for ID4, I Robot, and I Am Legend. My poor neighbors!

I'll let you folks know asap after I rock my apartment!

Maybe it's time to start inviting the neighbors over for movie night?
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