Tier thread for audio - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

I think the missing oomph factor in BU can be attributed to the mixing done for the HD DVD release. I hope that Universal fixes the audio issues on BU and The Kingdom as well for the BLU release.

The Home Theater master for Bourne was done by the original crew at our studio.
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post #722 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I love it that you and eye don't see eye to eye on this... what a boring world this would be

And while I might represent the minority around here, there are a lot of people in the sound business who agreed with me... there are 5 sound awards each year in our business (Motion Picture Sound Editors, British Academy Awards, Cinema Audio Sociey, and the Oscar (one award each for Sound and Sound Editing).... Bourne won all but one of them.... the CAS mixing award (which is nominated and voted on by mixers only, unlike the Oscar which is nominated by the sound branch and voted on by the membership at large) which went to "No Country," my favorite from last year

Very insightful post! I do have a question about "No Country," though. NCfOM is not a particularly bombastic track as, say, Transformers or Bourne. I understand why Ratatouille would be nominated, but what is it about NCfOM that made the Academy nominate it for Best Sound and Sound Editing? Mind you, I hadn't really paid attention to this track and am just writing this based on what I remember.

Also, what's the difference between the two categories?
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post #723 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

I love it that you and eye don't see eye to eye on this... what a boring world this would be

And while I might represent the minority around here, there are a lot of people in the sound business who agreed with me... there are 5 sound awards each year in our business (Motion Picture Sound Editors, British Academy Awards, Cinema Audio Sociey, and the Oscar (one award each for Sound and Sound Editing).... Bourne won all but one of them.... the CAS mixing award (which is nominated and voted on by mixers only, unlike the Oscar which is nominated by the sound branch and voted on by the membership at large) which went to "No Country," my favorite from last year..

Remember that this isn't a comparison on viewing on home video, so codecs don't make a difference... I saw all of the award nominated films in the proper environments.. but I wouldn't say that makes any kind of difference in how I evaluate someone else's work..

And most reviews and home theater sites tend to value the amount of sub and surround action, rather than how the track serviced the story... which is fine, it's just a different type of criteria...

To my ears, there was little variety in the different transformation sounds... after the first helicopter changed, it was wash, rinse, repeat, with not a lot of personality or texture... once again, only my opinion..

Those are my nitpicks though, and you will recall I'va said I think it's a great track.. it just wasn't the best... I actually liked "Cloverfield" much more, and that still has my vote for the best so far in 2008, and as of now ranks as my must listen for BD this year....

And for the record, I have a lot of respect for your opinion.

Thanks

Very much enjoy the inteligent, and mature debates with you even if we dont quite see eye to eye.

Fair enough, and I do agree about most review sites and the criteria they use to judge/review an audio track.

I have to say you are getting me excited (as well as all the other great things I have read) to hear and watch Cloverfield for the first time in my HT! I have heard nothing but good things about this track, and your comments have me even more looking forward to Tues (or whenever I can find the time to watch this in the coming up week).

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post #724 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikenike View Post

Very insightful post! I do have a question about "No Country," though. NCfOM is not a particularly bombastic track as, say, Transformers or Bourne. I understand why Ratatouille would be nominated, but what is it about NCfOM that made the Academy nominate it for Best Sound and Sound Editing? Mind you, I hadn't really paid attention to this track and am just writing this based on what I remember.

Also, what's the difference between the two categories?

Everybody... please let me know if the off topic is too much...

Two categories:

Sound Editing.. Goes to the Supervising Sound Editors. They, most obviously, edit all of the sounds that go into a film. This includes all the editing of the production track (the sound that was shot on the set), the ADR (when actors come into the studio after the fact and redo their lines, either for technical reasons or to change the line), the foley, sound effects and background sounds and ambiences. They are also responsible for all of the sound design, which are any and all sounds that need be created for anything where a real world sound doesn't exist.... they create all of the pieces that make up a soundtrack outside of music and the score, and are the collaborators who work with the mixing team to create and craft the final sound track.

Best Sound.... This goes to the production sound mixer (the guy who records the sound and the set) and the re-recording mixers who take all of the sound elements the editors provide and pieces them all together using level, spacial placement, processing, etc... to make the final sound track... there are usually two re-recording mixers.. one does dialog and music (that's me ) and one does effects (sound effects, design, foley and backgrounds.)


"No Country" was special for a lot of reasons. The first, most obvious, was how it transported you into the characters world completely without music and through brilliant foley and sound effects, especially the foley and background ambiences)... I was never bored and was completely on the edge of my seat from the beginning...

Quiet and subtle is hard, and takes a lot of talent to create a completely realistic world with manufactured sound.. A lot of times, you are struggling to maintain the world under score, and without it, the choice of sounds and how they are mixed are paramount in maintaing the reality of the story.... if you have the disc, unplug your center speaker, and you've hear a lot of the subtlety in the background tracks...
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post #725 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 08:14 PM
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FilmMixer,

A noob question for you. Do you feel that the Center speaker gets the maximum assault in the sound mix ? If I turn off the center speaker I immediately feel a sense of vacuum.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #726 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 08:19 PM
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Theres a scene I liked to know if it sounds better or diferent from sd-dvd than Blu-ray in "Transformers".

It's about 5 -6 minutes in the movie, when the jets take off from the base, after the commander says some, bogey in the weeds, not squawking stuff.

Sounds funny on my system. Is it just the mix or ... ?

super dirty , super clean , pow
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post #727 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

FilmMixer,

A noob question for you. Do you feel that the Center speaker gets the maximum assault in the sound mix ? If I turn off the center speaker I immediately feel a sense of vacuum.

Of course.... I blow more center drivers than anything else... remember that we are tied a lot of times to what was recorded on the set, at the time, and alot of the tracks has to be shaped around that reality.. it's where a lot of the foley live, but if you turn it off, or better yet, watch the foreign track since there was no original production sound, all of the sound you are hearing was done after the fact by us... it's a great way to dissect a mix and hear the chops of the sound crew.
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post #728 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Everybody... please let me know if the off topic is too much...

While you are giving us a lot of information. And give praise to the mixes that do deserve it. Good picks. I think this clogging this thread a bit. The past few pages probably need to be cleaned.

...my little joke about adding Transformers to the Ref tier preemptively seems to have become Frankentseinian.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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post #729 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

I would rate Book of Secrets at the bottom of Tier 0. The mix is fine, bass is awesome. Plus that really long car chase really kicks ass. And Cage has a tendency to over act, so the "shouty" dialogue is mostly just the way he reads his lines. Not every bit of the film needs the surrounds, but when they are needed they do kick in.

NT1 would be at the bottom of Tier 1 or maybe lower, it wasn't too impressive.

I guess everybody was overacting then and read their lines loudly? IMO, it was the balance of the mix simple is that. And the surround was way under used for ambience,[it was used mainly in the fronts] there was no sense of space on many scenes that could have used that. Oh yeah listen to the music in that London car chase. I stand by my comments.

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post #730 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I always respect your opinion FilmMixer, but I have to disagree on a few things. First of all is BU...The TrueHD track was dissapointing to my ears and it was only after hearing and playing the much better DD+ track on this disc that I could understand the praise for the audio. The TrueHD track sounded compressed, lacked LFE/bass punch and just sounded a bit flat in comparison to the DD+ track which was wierd for me as I usualy feel just the opposite (if I can even hear any dif which I commonly dont), but not with this movie.




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When you listen to the True HD track on BU, press the late night button on your Onkyo's remote. The DRC is set to "Auto" which is the default setting for True HD, set it to "off", and you will get all the dynamic range back including the LFE punch you were "missing". My impression was the same thing before I tried to set the DRC to "Off" Some reason this disc was "authored" that it triggers the DRC on the Onkyo/Integra receivers/preamps, so every time you wanna hear that disc's THD, you will have to set the DRC off during playback.

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post #731 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

i'm really not for placements within the tiers. i think it will simply be too subjective to place one film over another within the same tier and it will take a ton of editing that i do not have time for.

I got ya, I can't say I blame you there at all. Thanks for maintaining the thread.

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post #732 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 11:33 PM
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what about the video thread?
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post #733 of 2680 Old 06-01-2008, 11:51 PM
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It will soon be implemented in the Video thread as stated by Rob.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #734 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Toe
When you listen to the True HD track on BU, press the late night button on your Onkyo's remote. The DRC is set to "Auto" which is the default setting for True HD, set it to "off", and you will get all the dynamic range back including the LFE punch you were "missing". My impression was the same thing before I tried to set the DRC to "Off" Some reason this disc was "authored" that it triggers the DRC on the Onkyo/Integra receivers/preamps, so every time you wanna hear that disc's THD, you will have to set the DRC off during playback.


Very interesting, and this would explain why I experienced what I did. Thank you very much as I will give this track another try with the DRC to off

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post #735 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 01:49 PM
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National Treasure (LPCM) Tier 1

Overall I prefer this to the sequel's THD track but only by a hair hence the same tier. Balance was noticeably better so is ambience, but bass was a little less forceful on this. Overall loudness was about the same without the ADR standing out like in the sequel. A better movie too.


BTW there is no Dolby THD on this disc, so it is either a typo on the tier list, or was nominated by someone who didn't even see this.

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post #736 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

National Treasure (LPCM) Tier 1

Overall I prefer this to the sequel's THD track but only by a hair hence the same tier. Balance was noticeably better so is ambience, but bass was a little less forceful on this. Overall loudness was about the same without the ADR standing out like in the sequel. A better movie too.


BTW there is no Dolby THD on this disc, so it is either a typo on the tier list, or was nominated by someone who didn't even see this.

The TrueHD soundtrack is on the sequel. Maybe they got confused?

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post #737 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 04:43 PM
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Sure, it could by a typo as i said.

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post #738 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Toe
When you listen to the True HD track on BU, press the late night button on your Onkyo's remote. The DRC is set to "Auto" which is the default setting for True HD, set it to "off", and you will get all the dynamic range back including the LFE punch you were "missing". My impression was the same thing before I tried to set the DRC to "Off" Some reason this disc was "authored" that it triggers the DRC on the Onkyo/Integra receivers/preamps, so every time you wanna hear that disc's THD, you will have to set the DRC off during playback.


Does this happen with all TruHD tracks? Even the ones on blu ray?
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post #739 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bori View Post

Does this happen with all TruHD tracks? Even the ones on blu ray?


No, only on the Bourne Ultimatum HD DVD, as far as I know.

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post #740 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

No, only on the Bourne Ultimatum HD DVD, as far as I know.

Yes when I had HD DVD player I was very disappointed with the lack of LFE with BU, I thought it was the disc.
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post #741 of 2680 Old 06-02-2008, 11:13 PM
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+1. BU on HD DVD lacked LFE. How about The Kingdom ? I thought it sounded dreadful.

Sorry for going off-topic.

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post #742 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

Yes when I had HD DVD player I was very disappointed with the lack of LFE with BU, I thought it was the disc.

Nope, it was hardware related, but how it was authored had something to with it though, as I never had to this with any other disc.

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post #743 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 02:06 AM
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thehun,

You are yet to revert back on Face/Off ? I am still waiting for your comments.

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post #744 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

+1. BU on HD DVD lacked LFE. How about The Kingdom ? I thought it sounded dreadful.

Sorry for going off-topic.

BU didn't lack LFE when it was properly decoded, see my posts above, however Kingdom is just a lousy sound mix/design.

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post #745 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

thehun,

You are yet to revert back on Face/Off ? I am still waiting for your comments.

It's in my Netflix queue. Patience.

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post #746 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 11:10 AM
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Now that some of us have Cloverfield in hand we can add it to the reference list.

Woohoo. It's as good as I imagined it would be in my mind. Buy it.
I totally called this one. My next pic for top of the food chain is Speed Racer for best PQ ever(SQ will be above average, not earth shattering).

If you normally boost your sub a bit. Undo it when you watch Cloverfield.

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post #747 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:


BU didn't lack LFE when it was properly decoded, see my posts above, however Kingdom is just a lousy sound mix/design

I'd agree with that except I can't call The Kingdom a lousy sound mix design unless I know what they were intending to be heard on the screen. I think The Kingdom was underwhelming for sure but a lot of that is pure expectations.
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post #748 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 03:44 PM
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comment/question

Live Free or Die Hard was an amazing looking and sounding movie, even with just DTS core.

My question is if the 1.5mpbs core is actually bitstreamed over optical (which is what i use ATM) or if the bitrate is lower over optical. Either way the movie sounded fantastic, and made me want to upgrade my system
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post #749 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbonetommygun View Post

comment/question

Live Free or Die Hard was an amazing looking and sounding movie, even with just DTS core.

My question is if the 1.5mpbs core is actually bitstreamed over optical (which is what i use ATM) or if the bitrate is lower over optical. Either way the movie sounded fantastic, and made me want to upgrade my system

Optical carries the core up to 1.5mbps...
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post #750 of 2680 Old 06-03-2008, 05:56 PM
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thanks, wasn't sure of the bandwidth of optical.
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