Bram Stoker's Dracula comparison *PIX* - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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"I like the way it looked"

-Siskel and Ebert


http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/bue...subsec=dracula
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:45 AM
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With all the tweaking going on in this transfer I find it hard to believe that Coppola wasn't there personally overseeing it, unless Coppola had really, really detailed instructions: "desaturate this, darken this, make the torch green, etc". I think the colorists being on crack is more believable though.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:32 AM
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coppola wasn't there. been confirmed. his new film is now coming out and he's been very busy for the last 2 years or so. He has also said in the commentary (recorded before the new transfer was done) that he hadn't seen it in years and that it was really more of a "gig" and that it financially bailed himself and Zoetrope out.

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Old 12-01-2007, 09:23 AM
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If that's true then maybe he just doesn't care. Sad.

Coppola on the phone:
"Yeah, make it darker, less color, creepy, whatever. Bye."

So are his other films going to get this kind of "mastering"? Besides The Godfathers of course. Those will probably look great.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:38 AM
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Crapola
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:25 PM
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Dave, is that your wife next to the flag? I can hardly see any detail in her hair. The blacks are horribly crushed. Was that your intention?

lol!

I too went to the winery (back when it was free!) and didn't know those props and costumes were there. I was thrilled. Love this movie.....so bummed about how the transfer turned out.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

How about the shot of the carriage going towards the castle that riled a lot of people up? This one:



And I'd be really curious in these, not sure of the timestamps:







Yeah, I'd also like to see that one of Drac. On the SB I believe you can see his eyes and on the BR you can't...
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 12-02-2007, 03:57 PM
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maybe 15 years from now, "Youth Without Youth" can be re-released on BluRay with all of the shadow detail removed. that would be swell!!!!
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus View Post

maybe 15 years from now, "Youth Without Youth" can be re-released on BluRay with all of the shadow detail removed. that would be swell!!!!

But thats the way he wants it
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:02 PM
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Hey, Xylon's screengrabs more than justify what I and many others are saying and I didn't start this thread.







This one here more than proves our point.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:29 PM
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^

The question really is if the Superbit is more definitive than the Blu-ray release. While from an aesthetic viewpoint I certainly like seeing more detail, I find the Blu-ray image more believable. The apparent lighting in the Superbit is totally unrealistic - the ambient light is such a heavy, saturated orange color, and there's no way all that light is coming from that one feeble little lamp.

I'm not trying to be an apologist here (since tastes vary), but that could be one reason why that particular scene was darkened and desaturated in that fashion.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Hey, Xylon's screengrabs more than justify what I and many others are saying and I didn't start this thread.







This one here more than proves our point.


These shots say it all. No need to argue, no need to discuss intent, no need to name-call. If anyone tries to justify this, they lose credibility instantly, no matter who they are...
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Old 12-02-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemage View Post

^

The question really is if the Superbit is more definitive than the Blu-ray release. While from an aesthetic viewpoint I certainly like seeing more detail, I find the Blu-ray image more believable. The apparent lighting in the Superbit is totally unrealistic - the ambient light is such a heavy, saturated orange color, and there's no way all that light is coming from that one feeble little lamp.

I'm not trying to be an apologist here (since tastes vary), but that could be one reason why that particular scene was darkened and desaturated in that fashion.

I certainly do agree with your viewpoint. The new version does look more realistic. I just think that the reason that I and many others originally dug the film was that it was SO over the top and unrealistic, bordering on theatrical.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemage View Post

^

The question really is if the Superbit is more definitive than the Blu-ray release. While from an aesthetic viewpoint I certainly like seeing more detail, I find the Blu-ray image more believable. The apparent lighting in the Superbit is totally unrealistic - the ambient light is such a heavy, saturated orange color, and there's no way all that light is coming from that one feeble little lamp.

I'm not trying to be an apologist here (since tastes vary), but that could be one reason why that particular scene was darkened and desaturated in that fashion.

The logical next step from THAT would be that the print used for previous home video releases was instead oversaturated and artificially brightened. I saw this in theaters on the original run... Can't recall the writing on that particular screenshot. I know the Blu-ray release looks great and far better than standard def. :shrug:

Guess one can decide on their own whether the explicit claims of FFC, Zoetrope, Kim Aubrey, paidgeek, etc are credible or not...

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Old 12-03-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemage View Post

^

The question really is if the Superbit is more definitive than the Blu-ray release. While from an aesthetic viewpoint I certainly like seeing more detail, I find the Blu-ray image more believable. The apparent lighting in the Superbit is totally unrealistic - the ambient light is such a heavy, saturated orange color, and there's no way all that light is coming from that one feeble little lamp.

Well I really see this as an error during production. Really skilled gaffers can create that felling at same time keep detail etc.

So neither version looks good (from the screenshots, i havnt seen the BD) and i dont think there is so much you can do about it unless the negative has alot more details from the beginning.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

I saw this in theaters on the original run... Can't recall the writing on that particular screenshot.

That you "can't recall the writing" in that shot only speaks to your memory, or possibly the poor projection standards of the theater where you saw the film, not the artistic faithfulness of the new transfer.

Ask yourself this, if the shot was truly intended to be so dark as to crush all shadow detail and obscure the overlayed text, why would that text have been superimposed over the shot in the first place? The editor of the film went to the trouble of creating a dissolve effect that overlays the diary text onto the image. Why would he do that if we were never meant to see it?

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Old 12-03-2007, 12:00 PM
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My point was that I can't remember if it was or not on the original run or not. Can you? I can well envision creative license and dynamic lighting making the script visible in the live in motion movie while not so much in a still shot...

Ultimately, my point is that I have no reason to doubt the words of FFC, Zoetrope, paidgeek, and Robert Harris on the director's intent being fulfilled in the answer print stored in the vault. Do you?

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Old 12-03-2007, 12:02 PM
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the fact that the superimposed-writing effect is almost completely missing with the "new look" proves that they failed at whatever they were trying to go for with this new release.
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Old 12-03-2007, 12:06 PM
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While these screenshots make me upset at the transfer, I watched the Blu-Ray version on Saturday night...

I haven't seen this movie since its first release on VHS waay back. I thought it looked wonderful, but, it definitely could have looked better. Hopefully something will come of this thread and we will get a better transfer...
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Old 12-03-2007, 01:20 PM
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I guess it all comes down to, ultimately, is if you like the new BD transfer or not.
I, for one, am underwhelmed.

Maybe we should conduct a poll...

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Old 12-03-2007, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

My point was that I can't remember if it was or not on the original run or not. Can you?

In fact, I can. I remember it clearly. I saw the movie three times theatrically and found that particular effect striking. If it had been as dark as this Blu-ray, I never would have noticed it.

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I can well envision creative license and dynamic lighting making the script visible in the live in motion movie while not so much in a still shot...

Then I take it you haven't actually watched the Blu-ray? The text is not visible in motion either.

Quote:
Ultimately, my point is that I have no reason to doubt the words of FFC, Zoetrope, paidgeek, and Robert Harris on the director's intent being fulfilled in the answer print stored in the vault. Do you?

I have many reasons to doubt. Not only does this Blu-ray look absolutely nothing like any previous release of the movie, from theatrical to VHS, laserdisc (including the Coppola-supervised Criterion LD), or DVD, it just plain looks bad. The new transfer is simply not artistically appealing, whereas every previous version of the movie have been.

I do not necessarily consider the Superbit DVD to be the definitive color transfer for this film. In fact, I do find it a little too bright and oversaturated. But the Blu-ray overcompensates way too much and destroys the look of the film in the process.

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Old 12-03-2007, 03:03 PM
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Agree. ^^

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Old 12-03-2007, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

In fact, I can. I remember it clearly. I saw the movie three times theatrically and found that particular effect striking. If it had been as dark as this Blu-ray, I never would have noticed it.

I saw it twice on the original run. Once was before a HS football game, though. Striking?


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Then I take it you haven't actually watched the Blu-ray? The text is not visible in motion either.

Yes I have watched the Blu-ray two times fully through and pieces several times more. Especially the prologue, Harker in Dracula's castle, Lucy's staking, and the ending (my favorite parts). I was referring to the original theatrical release.

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I have many reasons to doubt. Not only does this Blu-ray look absolutely nothing like any previous release of the movie, from theatrical to VHS, laserdisc (including the Coppola-supervised Criterion LD), or DVD, it just plain looks bad. The new transfer is simply not artistically appealing, whereas every previous version of the movie have been.

It appears that FFC, Zoetrope, and SPE have a different view on artistically appealing than you. Nothing wrong with that.

Looking "nothing like" the previous release is a horse that's already long since been turned to glue, though, so no point in further circling on it, I suppose.

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I do not necessarily consider the Superbit DVD to be the definitive color transfer for this film. In fact, I do find it a little too bright and oversaturated. But the Blu-ray overcompensates way too much and destroys the look of the film in the process.

Destroys is an unnecessary bit of hyperbole. Unless the scribbles were integral to your viewing experience.

Just curious but have you gone to a 1080p projector yet or still on the 720p?

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Old 12-03-2007, 05:02 PM
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I did see it years after it's release and after VHS in 35mm at a revival at Moma and the writing was clearly seen and the colors were, well, colorful.

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Old 12-04-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Penton-man View Post

As I like Dave M., I would hope that you are incorrect as to him being the main protagonist carrying the Dracula DVD torch and that it has been passed onto other minions. If you are correct as to his continuous fixation with this matter then I think wikipedia should have an entry for When title fandom becomes title obsession and link Dave and that Xylon character (if he too is still posting pics) as examples of such.

Xylon character? Sounds pretty sinister.

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I just don't understand the continued misguided castigation for this title on AVS,

Hello? Because it looks like crap. And it looks worse the more we see of it. It's like one screenshot trainwreck after another with this transfer. Even the most decent capture (Drac holding the lattern) is soft. Lost in Translation soft.

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I can assure viewers that the Blu-ray encode from the most current video master is as transparent, or more so, as some of the best tiered films rated and raved about on many forums. Hell, it was done by the same individuals. There is no *technological transfer* problem here. No amount of obsessive internet campaigning is going to change SPE's stance on this production, as F.F.C. is the client of SPE on this title, not Dave Mack, nor anybody else.



Quote:


Now, if anyone chooses to criticize F.F.C.'s artistic choice for using that particular answer print as a source for the Blu-ray disc, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion..within moderation. But if they are still making the same overt and snide insults toward Mr. Coppola (and Kim for that matter) now as I read weeks ago, all I can say is that it is indeed fortunate that he and Kim don't read the forums because if they did, they would undoubtedly find all the clamor to be disrespectful and only hinder further releases on Blu-ray that they hold rights to.

Yeah, right. God himself could've approved of this transfer and it still wouldn't change that it looks like garbage. The colors are off and painfully altered from the original (green flame?). The black levels are an inky mess and ruin many details that were the original photography. What was done to this film transfer-wise is an abomination. Worse than the Traffic HD-DVD, because at least the colors and black level weren't screwed up on that.

As for FFC and Kim... If FFC's other films are getting the same kind of "mastering" as Dracula then god help us. The thought of more revisonist transfers in the future is far scarier than anything in Dracula.
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Yes I have watched the Blu-ray two times fully through and pieces several times more.

Then you know that the text isn't visible, even in motion.

Quote:


Destroys is an unnecessary bit of hyperbole. Unless the scribbles were integral to your viewing experience.

Again I ask, why would the director and editor have created that effect if the shot was going to be artificially darkened so much that it would never be seen?

And obviously, it is not just this one shot, but the entire movie that's been darkened and desaturated in ways that do not look organic to the film's style.

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Just curious but have you gone to a 1080p projector yet or still on the 720p?

My equipment list is located in my profile. I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion, other than your holding a grudge over a thread from almost a year ago now.

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Old 12-04-2007, 12:24 PM
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One reason I was so OCD on this was because some people kept saying that I was "anti-Blu" or, "Your PJ is off. You need calibration.." With Xylon's grabs, everyone can now at least see what I and many others were referring to. My PJ was not and is not "off" or in need of calibration. The actual raw grabs clearly show the black crush and desaturation. I've also had a PS3 since Dec. 2006 and love it.
And what's nuttier? Someone who may be a bit obsessive about something or the people who get obsessive about the other person's obsessiveness? Way creepier to me.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:33 PM
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Dave,

You realize Francis Ford Coppola hates you now according to Penton-man.....
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