Bram Stoker's Dracula comparison *PIX* - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 09:21 AM
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I can see more detail(minimal) in the 29:47 timestamp on my display, including a word to the left of the lamp. Maybe it's there on the screencap, and my monitor is not resolving it. It's still nowhere close to the DVD though.

Can you grab a screenshot when the buggy approaches the castle? Around 11:45 in? Dave's pics showed basically non existent shadow detail, but I see a decent amount of dark detail in that scene. I thought I recall him saying those pics he took were very close to what he was seeing.
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post #182 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 11:25 AM
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I actually think most every blu-ray screen cap you guys have posted looks better. The SB-DVD version looks wildy over-saturated and unnatural.
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post #183 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebanks View Post

I actually think most every blu-ray screen cap you guys have posted looks better. The SB-DVD version looks wildy over-saturated and unnatural.

I agree about that. But I think Xylon tries to show, that the lettering seen in the DVD is "abscent" on the BD.
I assume this can't be Coppolas intention.
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post #184 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by degas View Post

I agree about that. But I think Xylon tries to show, that the lettering seen in the DVD is "absent" on the BD.
I assume this can't be Coppolas intention.

Bingo. If my screenshots are verified by others, there is no fraking way anyone can spin this. BUT, I will interested what they have to say.
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post #185 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dot50Cal View Post

Hey Xylon, Just wanted to say your shots are proper. I took some shots via PS3's output at 1080i, and they match up nearly perfectly (though mine have a slight tint of green which can probably be explained by the capture card).


Dot50Cal I need a HUGE favor. Can you do another capture using the 29:47 timestamps? Blu-ray should suffice but if you have the SB DVD it would be better.
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post #186 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What luma range setting is activated within Haali Renderer? There's PC (0-255) and TV (16-235) levels. Not sure which version you're using but on mine selecting TV (16-235) expands it to PC levels.

On a seperate note what YUV colorspace is selected within your Haali control panel? There's BT.601 and BT.709. If you're using Haali Renderer to play dvds and it's on BT.709 than that would explain the orange reds problem that's in a lot of your dvd captures.

I will check and recheck all settings tonight. I will give you all the relevent settings.

You know there must be someone else who can post the same digital screenshots. I need to isolate my system to make sure its not me.
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post #187 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 04:15 PM
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I find it funny how some of you are actually trying to justify that the BD is better. Assuming Xylon's procedure is correct, every BD image looks underexposed. Don't kid yourself: the BD is not "creepier" this way. Yes, it does have more detail and is sharper but so what? If it was the other way around, you guys would just say "I can't believe I survived with the DVD all this time. I couldn't even see their faces. And the colors just pop off the BD!!!"
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post #188 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Bingo. If my screenshots are verified by others, there is no fraking way anyone can spin this. BUT, I will interested what they have to say.

I'm sure Gary will give it a good go
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post #189 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Bingo. If my screenshots are verified by others, there is no fraking way anyone can spin this. BUT, I will interested what they have to say.

Xylon, thanks so much for the hard work.

What you're seeing is exactly what I've been seeing on my set-up at those time-stamps. And that confirms it to me that there is definitely something wrong with this transfer no matter what anyone tries to make me believe...

Also, thanks again Dave. I was always trying to give the release the benefit of the doubt, but you were right all along. Cheers.
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post #190 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 06:32 PM
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Perhaps the black levels on the BR are slightly off. If you have a system that doesn't clip below black information, try turning the brightness up slightly. I'd be curious to hear if the diary writing just becomes noticeable. If so, FFC was probably pushing the scene to the darkest level possible, and then the movie was encoded slightly too dark (which does happen; look at how different DVD THX calibrations can be from disc to disc; they're meant only for the movie that's with them). If still no difference, forget I said anything.
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post #191 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bing View Post

I find it funny how some of you are actually trying to justify that the BD is better. Assuming Xylon's procedure is correct, every BD image looks underexposed. Don't kid yourself: the BD is not "creepier" this way. Yes, it does have more detail and is sharper but so what? If it was the other way around, you guys would just say "I can't believe I survived with the DVD all this time. I couldn't even see their faces. And the colors just pop off the BD!!!"

I disagree. I just stumbled across this thread today, and in the first 3 pages every cap looks better to me on the BD version. However, the last two pages are a completely different monster. These are unacceptable.

Brandon
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post #192 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 08:43 PM
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I can't believe there were people defending this transfer. Took me about 2 seconds to realize they had ****ed up the black levels.
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post #193 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 10:27 PM
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Well, it's not hard to imagine why some people would stick to their guns. When you have a an expert like Robert Harris and even a rep from Coppola's company saying that this is how Dracula was always meant to look like it can be very easy to jump on that bandwagon. Of course the !@#$ hits the fan when actual screenshots come out (ie Traffic HD-DVD).
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post #194 of 763 Old 11-17-2007, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

If this is verified by members then a lot of people or so called "experts" will owe Dave Mack a public apology.

So, how do we explain this? Very curious.

I have a few words about this BD transfer as soon as I get more screenshots in. I need to see this thru to the end.

Thanks, Xylon!

I was just trying to back myself up, not be a know it all pain. My screenshots were literally just a digital camera pointed at my screen but my eyes knew something looked wonky.

You know, I have had a PS3 since last year, Dracula is one of my fave films of all times. I was so stoked for this release and even defended it when the first reviews came in when I hadn't seen it yet until I got my copy.
Then I was crucified over at BD.com and banned, was told my "calibration" was "off", that I had "an agenda", that I was "anti-blu" etc, etc. when all I did was point out and try to explain and defend my observations.
The screenshot comparison here of the "writing" hopefully backs me up once and for all. I had no agenda, I love the film and truly think the BD looks wrong in several spots. New color timing? Ok, even if a bit revisionist... But black levels so crappy that much of the image is now gone? Why build the amazing sets with all the detail in the first place? The entire "Harker wandering through the castle scene" is a murky, flat, soft mess where it wasn't before.

Here are xylon's shots made a bit smaller...





Just IMHO, the BD looks unnatural, processed, digital, flat and just bad.

I have a light cannon of a PJ, a mits hc3000 and turning up the "brightness" here, even all the way does not reveal the writing, it's just gone.
And what was confirmed was that a "REP" from Zoetrope relayed Coppolla's wishes for the tranfer to the people doing it. AFAIK, he himself was NOT there and didn't "personally" supervise it.

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post #195 of 763 Old 11-18-2007, 02:37 AM
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What would the cinematographer think of these alterations? All that effort to carefully light that beatifully detailed set only to have it crushed to empty black 15 years later. Thanks, Francis.
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post #196 of 763 Old 11-18-2007, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What luma range setting is activated within Haali Renderer? There's PC (0-255) and TV (16-235) levels. Not sure which version you're using but on mine selecting TV (16-235) expands it to PC levels.

Its at 16-235. I tried using 0-255 on Haali but it won't capture the image at that level. A bug? Harmless but still. So to get 0-255 raw file I used VMR9 this time. I have the ATI 2600 Pro and arfster indicated that it sometime screws up the levels (Photoshop can fix this before I upload the image).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

On a seperate note what YUV colorspace is selected within your Haali control panel? There's BT.601 and BT.709. If you're using Haali Renderer to play dvds and it's on BT.709 than that would explain the orange reds problem that's in a lot of your dvd captures.

Colorspace is BT.601 in all off the files. I see no discernable difference using that and BT.709 (remember Flags of Our Father?)
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post #197 of 763 Old 11-18-2007, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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post #198 of 763 Old 11-18-2007, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Its at 16-235. I tried using 0-255 on Haali but it won't capture the image at that level. A bug? Harmless but still. So to get 0-255 raw file I used VMR9 this time.

Yeah, you probably have to use print screen to get a capture when using Haali Renderer. Oh well.

Seeing the unaltered raw image it's obvious that there's nothing in the shadows. No writing overlay, no wall detail, nothing. It's one big black blob around poor Keanu. Bogus.

Quote:
Colorspace is BT.601 in all off the files. I see no discernable difference using that and BT.709 (remember Flags of Our Father?)

That was a near monochromatic image though. The differences show up in the colors. I'm not sure how bt.709 material reacts to being outputted as bt.601 but dvds outputted as bt.709 have the red/orange issue:
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post #199 of 763 Old 11-18-2007, 05:01 PM
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i finally got around to watching the BD version last night....

the part that bothered me the most was that it seemed excessibly SOFT. and the black levels definitely seemed clipped.


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post #200 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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post #201 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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post #202 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 04:56 AM
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Very nice comparison pics! Unfortunately the blu-ray looks a little too dark to my taste!
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post #203 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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post #204 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 10:09 PM
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They really screwed up the shadow detail didn't they? Winona's hair is a mess of black shapes instead of detailed hair. Just godawful.


Coppola to colorist thru e-mail:

FFC: "You know, my movie is a little too colorful and bright. Can you make it darker and scarier?"

colorist: "I think we can do that..."

::turns down brightness, cranks down color saturation, adds green tint::
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post #205 of 763 Old 11-25-2007, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

They really screwed up the shadow detail didn't they? Winona's hair is a mess of black shapes instead of detailed hair. Just godawful.


Coppola to colorist thru e-mail:

FFC: "You know, my movie is a little too colorful and bright. Can you make it darker and scarier?"

colorist: "I think we can do that..."

::turns down brightness, cranks down color saturation, adds green tint::

You going to upset Gary
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post #206 of 763 Old 11-26-2007, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

What would the cinematographer think of these alterations? All that effort to carefully light that beatifully detailed set only to have it crushed to empty black 15 years later. Thanks, Francis.

I must admit I am disappointed by the PQ of this BD.
This release was reportedly QCed by Coppola himself.
I guess that is where the buck stops.

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post #207 of 763 Old 11-26-2007, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

They really screwed up the shadow detail didn't they? Winona's hair is a mess of black shapes instead of detailed hair. Just godawful.


Forget the black blob that is supposed to be her hair, I can barely see her boobies!

But seriously if you are the director what is the correct color timing for this scene, the bright orange/red color or the subdued much darker green tinted black'ish color (anymore dialing down and we could be seeing a black and white version of Dracula )? What color best represent hightened emotion this case a very, very hot and horny Mina hypnotized by the vampires?


Trust your instincts. We have seen a lot of movies and their basic styles. Don't let so called insiders tell you what you should be seeing. Remember 5th Element remastering of the original BD release? Our moment of victory showing that we HD enthusiasts can't be fooled no matter what they say.
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post #208 of 763 Old 11-26-2007, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post


Coppola to colorist thru e-mail:

FFC: "You know, my movie is a little too colorful and bright. Can you make it darker and scarier?"

colorist: "I think we can do that..."

::turns down brightness, cranks down color saturation, adds green tint::

Good one Kram

I wonder if he has seen the BD release. It would be nice if he post somewhere his thoughts of the new transfer.
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post #209 of 763 Old 11-26-2007, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

I must admit I am disappointed by the PQ of this BD.
This release was reportedly QCed by Coppola himself.
I guess that is where the buck stops.

Hiya oink! (buffy says "WOOF!")

Actually the most they said officially was "a representative from zoetrope" relayed Mr. Coppolla's wishes re: the new transfer to the Sony guys doing the new transfer" Nowhere did they say that he himself supervised it or even watched it. In the commentary recorded over a year before the release, the new transfer hadn't been done yet. In the commentary, Coppolla also confirmed that he hadn't seen the film in years. The film saved his and zoetrope's financial booties so I think he looks back on it more as a job than some of his other more personal films.
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post #210 of 763 Old 11-26-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSX600F View Post

Very nice comparison pics! Unfortunately the blu-ray looks a little too dark to my taste!

As much as I love this film in never ceases to amaze me how hideous Lucy's wedding dress is.

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