Time to ask FOX to drop dtsHDMA - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Does anyone else think it is time to ask FOX to drop dtsHDMA in favor of PCM or DolbyTrueHD since very few players actually support it and the most popular player the PS3 may never support it?

I am sick and tired of waiting for dts and Sony to fully support dtsHDMA on the PS3. Really this only issue I have with the PS3 overall since the marketing initially advertised it as an all-in-one entertainment device.

At this point in time with DTHD and uncompressed PCM, dts is just another delivery stream that does the same thing.

If FOX went with DTHD or PCM then I believe the number of dtsHDMA titles released would drop significantly and the PS3 userbase demanding dtsHDMA would not care nearly as much about dtsHDMA being absent on the console.

I don't want this to turn into a dts vs DD debate. The fact is that if both dtsHDMA and DTHD do their job correctly the resulting PCM output is the same. Lossless is lossless and if sonic differences exist between lossless encodes on different platforms with the same master, then lossless is NOT lossless.

dts was behind at DVD's launch and never became popular until halfrate dts was introduced. dts is again behind on the next gen formats and if it is was not for one major studio using dtsHDMA exclusively no one would care.

dts had their chance but again could not deliver decoders in time for the initial players and now those players don't have the processing power to deliver it or don't have the latest HDMI revision, 1.3, to pass the bitstream to more capable equipment.

dts at this point would have no relevance if it was not for one major having an exclusive deal with them. I don't believe dts has the manpower to keep up with Dolby Labs' innovations.
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post #2 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 11:56 AM
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no, looking at the praises from those that can get the lossless part of the codec, i dont think we want them to drop dtsma. imo it's the players that need to catch up to decoding it. until the ps3 can decode it, i'd have to buy both a streaming player and a decoding receiver to get dtsma, and i still wont vote for removing it.
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post #3 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:02 PM
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Yeah, the players need to support decoding it. Welcome to the world of piece-meal support for various codecs/features/profiles in Blu-ray... aren't there even some players that don't do full Dolby True-hd decoding?

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post #4 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:02 PM
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You're an early adopter... Going in you should've known if you were going to "want it all", you'd have to upgrade your hardware...

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post #5 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

no, looking at the praises from those that can get the lossless part of the codec, i dont think we want them to drop dtsma. imo it's the players that need to catch up to decoding it. until the ps3 can decode it, i'd have to buy both a streaming player and a decoding receiver to get dtsma, and i still wont vote for removing it.

Again, I don't think dtsHDMA offers anything beyond the capabilities of DolbyTHD and uncompressed PCM. And if I had to put money on which company will be around 10 to 15 years from now, Dolby Labs is a much more stable business.
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post #6 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

You're an early adopter... Going in you should've known if you were going to "want it all", you'd have to upgrade your hardware...

Your missing my point though. DTHD and PCM can do exactly what dtsHDMA does and guess what most current hardware and even the lauch firmware in the PS3 supported both DolbyTHD and PCM. dtsHDMA does not offer anything other that a different algorithm to do the exact same thing as DTHD.

Would I like the PS3 to be updated to at least internally decode it? Yes, but I am tired of waiting and I am tired of dts again not be able to deliver a software decoding algorithm. dts is always late yet they have convinced the public that they are somehow superior so people demand their decoding algorithms in their AV equipment.

Exhibit A: dts late delivering on DVD. They wanted to use the available PCM track on DVD. DVD forum said no because it was way too easy to damage equipment if the wrong track was selected without the dts encoder in stream.
Exhibit B: dts claimed they were significantly superior to DD@448kbs on DVD. Well in order to get more support from the studio they had to halve their rate so bandwidth and disc space was not compromise. dts-lite was not a significant step-up from Dolby @ 448kbs. Many of the differences between DD and dts on the same titles were proven to be due different masters being used for each codec.
Exhibit C: dts is late again on the codec for the new format. dtsHDMA proves to be processor intensive that many initial players cannot be upgraded to support. Dolby has better luck adding TrueHD to the initial players on both HD DVD and BD players.
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post #7 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

no, looking at the praises from those that can get the lossless part of the codec

All 6?
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post #8 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:14 PM
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You sure the issue isn't with the company that manufactured your player?
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post #9 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:15 PM
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I think they should add pcm. I am not going to upgrade my player just to decode dtsma. I have a first generation samsung and it only does pcm for the hd audio.
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post #10 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:16 PM
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DTS HD-MA does offer a better lossy track for those who can't decode it. Unfortunately that's most of us now, but there should be more support in the future. Supposedly the reason the PS3 doesn't have it is political rather than technical.

The way I see it, there are just too many titles out now to ignore it and wish they would drop it. If they do that, the player makers could slack off and not support it. If anything, we may need more titles to include it to ensure solid support in the future. Sure, I agree it doesn't offer anything over the other codecs (except the lossy quality), but it's too late to let it go.
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post #11 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SirDrexl View Post

DTS HD-MA does offer a better lossy track for those who can't decode it. Unfortunately that's most of us now, but there should be more support in the future. Supposedly the reason the PS3 doesn't have it is political rather than technical.

The way I see it, there are just too many titles out now to ignore it and wish they would drop it. If they do that, the player makers could slack off and not support it. If anything, we may need more titles to include it to ensure solid support in the future. Sure, I agree it doesn't offer anything over the other codecs (except the lossy quality), but it's too late to let it go.

OK point taken that dtsHDMA has the fullrate lossy dts version. But it is getting to be an issue now that more titles are coming out that I will begin to overlook FOX titles due to their dtsHDMA exclusitivity for titles that feature PCM and DTHD lossless audio which I can enjoy in my setup.
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post #12 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by chipvideo View Post

I think they should add pcm. I am not going to upgrade my player just to decode dtsma. I have a first generation samsung and it only does pcm for the hd audio.

I agree. I may upgrade one day, but not for a few years. Maybe when I can go to BB and buy a 2.0 BD player that has everything for under $200.
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post #13 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by robertc88 View Post

You sure the issue isn't with the company that manufactured your player?

I really like the PS3. My issue is that it was marketed as an all-in-one device and they even mentioned HDMI 1.3 in their initial marketing so many assumed that it would eventually bitstream all versions of HD audio. Now it appears that is not the case.

If someone was looking to buy a fairly future proof BD today, then I would still point them to the PS3.

Again my point is that if it was not for FOX using dtsHDMA exclusively, dtsHDMA decoding/bitstreaming would be a moot point.
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post #14 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:36 PM
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No. I am glad that Fox and Lionsgate have gone with DTS HD MA. I wish more studios would, and it would get the player manufacturers to get off their duffs and include it. Why is it the new recievers have no problems including decoders, but the players still haven't caught up? To me it is the player manufacturers holding things up, not DTS.

At this time my reciever only decodes the old streams, so I just use the DTS core, or dolby digital. When I upgrade my reciever I will be sure to get one that can decode the new lossless codecs. If the PS3 never decodes DTS HDMA I will be a little upset, but I will just buy a new player down the road when DTS HDMA is included for a reasonable price. For now I am happy with the fact that the movies that I am buying are more future proof, and I won't have to replace them when a better soundtrack comes out. The DTS lossy codec is good enough for me right now.
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post #15 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by b.greenway View Post

All 6?

Exactly. You are getting it. Very few people can even enjoy it. If they went with DTHD or PCM then they would have a larger satisfied customer base.
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post #16 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigW View Post

Does anyone else think it is time to ask FOX to drop dtsHDMA in favor of PCM or DolbyTrueHD since very few players actually support it and the most popular player the PS3 may never support it?

Hell no! Have you heard DTS HD MA? It freakin' rocks!
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post #17 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigW View Post

Exactly. You are getting it. Very few people can even enjoy it. If they went with DTHD or PCM then they would have a larger satisfied customer base.

Not from me. Every upcoming player I've seen will handle DTS HD MA. I'd guess the PS3 will to at some point.
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post #18 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chipvideo View Post

I think they should add pcm. I am not going to upgrade my player just to decode dtsma. I have a first generation samsung and it only does pcm for the hd audio.

just upgrading player is one thing, quite a few of us need to upgrade receiver as well, and not talking about hdmi-less receivers either, just 1.2 instead of 1.3.
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post #19 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Beerstalker View Post

No. I am glad that Fox and Lionsgate have gone with DTS HD MA. I wish more studios would, and it would get the player manufacturers to get off their duffs and include it. Why is it the new recievers have no problems including decoders, but the players still haven't caught up? To me it is the player manufacturers holding things up, not DTS.

At this time my reciever only decodes the old streams, so I just use the DTS core, or dolby digital. When I upgrade my reciever I will be sure to get one that can decode the new lossless codecs. If the PS3 never decodes DTS HDMA I will be a little upset, but I will just buy a new player down the road when DTS HDMA is included for a reasonable price. For now I am happy with the fact that the movies that I am buying are more future proof, and I won't have to replace them when a better soundtrack comes out. The DTS lossy codec is good enough for me right now.


I have a receiver, Onkyo 805, that can decode dtsHDMA and DTHD. It also receives 8-channel PCM. If those FOX titles were encoded with DTHD or PCM, then I could enjoy them today without another purchase or hope of a FW update.

dts is not a healthy company. They most likely will not stand the test of time. Dolby has the proven track record. It just became en vogue to trash Dolby during the early days of DVD. Kind of like the strong anti-Sony sentiment we see today.
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post #20 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:42 PM
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Hell no! Keep releasing DTS MA.

Complain to Sony about not giving you DTS MA on your PS3. It's not Fox's fault.
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post #21 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShagMan View Post

Yeah, the players need to support decoding it. Welcome to the world of piece-meal support for various codecs/features/profiles in Blu-ray... aren't there even some players that don't do full Dolby True-hd decoding?

This isn't a Blu-Ray issue, it's a DTS issue. HD-DVD players only recently got DTS-MA, and the A3 still can't do it.

DTS was LATE with their specs, which caused all this to happen. If you want to blame someone the problem lays with them.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #22 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:45 PM
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No one is forcing anyone to upgrade. If you want it, then there is no choice. I don't see it that Fox should stop because of the player or receiver manufacturers.
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post #23 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

Hell no! Have you heard DTS HD MA? It freakin' rocks!

Again I don't want to this to dissolve into my codec is better than yours.


Do you understand that when both dtsHDMA and DolbyTrueHD are decoded into PCM for playback they are an identical stream of 1s and 0s.

Both freakin' rock.

Again my point is there is no need for dtsHDMA. It does the same thing as DTHD and Dolby had their ducks in a row when the format launched.
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post #24 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:46 PM
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Hell no. We can get full 1.5 mbps lossy DTS out of it if your player can't decode and the players that can decode them are coming. Think of the early years of DVD, many dvd players couldn't decode DTS, pretty much all of them can now. Also DTS-MA is more appealing to Fox because it is a compressed codec over PCM (allowing them to use single layer discs instead of dual layer on some titles) and has lower peak bitrates than TruHD (same situation). Basically for them it is the best codec and for those whose players can't decode or stream them you get the best lossy available.
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post #25 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertc88 View Post

No one is forcing anyone to upgrade. If you want it, then there is no choice. I don't see it that Fox should stop because of the player or receiver manufacturers.

Well put... I agree 100%
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post #26 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:47 PM
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I think we need to ask them for more titles.

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post #27 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:50 PM
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Absolutely not!

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post #28 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by almostinsane View Post

Hell no! Keep releasing DTS MA.

Complain to Sony about not giving you DTS MA on your PS3. It's not Fox's fault.

NO the problem is with FOX. They exclusively support a codec that probably less than 1% of the BD install base can enjoy. That number would be much higher if they at least included DTHD or PCM.

Some could argue that they should do both or at least add a PCM track in addition. I just think that is a waste of disc space and bandwidth.
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post #29 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post

....Also DTS-MA is more appealing to Fox because it is a compressed codec over PCM (allowing them to use single layer discs instead of dual layer on some titles) and has lower peak bitrates than TruHD (same situation)...

The differences of peak bandwidth between DTHD and dtsHDMA is statistically insignificant when compared to max datarate of the format.

Again, why is FOX using dtsHDMA when the vast majority of installed BD players, the PS3, is not capable of decoding it. Do they know something we don't know?
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post #30 of 231 Old 01-29-2008, 12:55 PM
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I think we need to ask them for more titles.

Yup, and prices more in line w/Warner. I can only imagine what Fox would've charged for something like 'Blade Runner' if they owned it. Thank God they don't.

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