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pondering the hd format war

7K views 71 replies 36 participants last post by  Toknowshita 
#1 ·
Just some questions about the format war...



I basically slept on it. I had gotten engaged in 2006, move to another state in 2006, changed jobs in 2007, and married in 2007, so basically any and all of our disposable income went to that from 2006-2008 ish… so I just missed the whole thing. I finally picked up blu ray in jan. of 2010. And I just don’t really remember the nitty gritty of this all, because I just had way more important things going on in life so… whatever. I missed the boat


So the past few months I have really gotten back into the Betamax format, and was looking at the downfall of that format, and a lot of people speculate one of the main reasons (beside tape length) was lower cost of the vhs players getting more people through the door for the format, and the cost was due to JVC licensing any and everyone who would give them royalty money. Was that also one of the many reasons for the failure of HD-DVD?? Like look at this, out of all the HD DVD players, here is the breakdown:
-21 toshibas
-2 venturers
-2 lgs (but were hd-dvd/bd combo units)
-1 rca
-1 onkyo
-1 integra
-1 samsung


That’s a crap load of Toshiba units… and not much else. Did Toshiba have a less than stellar licensing agreement? Why did no one else churn out any players? Now i know the main reason was company alliance, and of course the PS3 put several million units in household overnight basically. I don’t think it would make any difference at all what the prices were, or the availability of units, or anything. If the movies you want were all on blu-ray, you would have to support that format. So in the end, yes, the main deciding factor was the ps3, and all the company’s that ran to blu-ray in late 2007/early 2008, and left Toshiba standing alone. But why is that list of units so scarce with 3rd party manufacturers for hardware?
 
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#43 ·
I'm a computer guy, and watched the beginnings of the War with a great deal of interest. I heard all of the arguments before I invested in it, and one thing became glaringly clear:


HD-DVD had far less capacity than Blu-Ray.


I could see quite quickly which format would win. It was so obvious. The game was over as soon as Blu-Ray came on the scene. HD-DVD could have made every concession to the industry, and still could not have possibly been in contention without a major upgrade to the spec.


The final blow wasn't the defection of the studios - it was the lack of interest in selling blank media. Remember, this was the time that disc storage was the main means of storage.


School was out.


HD-DVD was a dead duck from day one in the face of plain facts. The rest was smoke, and busted mirrors.
 
#50 ·
Absolutely nothing here is true. This segment on Wiki says it best:

On January 4, 2008, citing consumer confusion and indifference as a reason for lackluster high-definition software sales, Warner Bros. publicly announced it would stop supporting HD DVD by June 2008, and the company would release HD titles only on Blu-ray Disc.[35] But despite public statements from Warner Bros., privately it was rumored that Warner Bros. had received $500,000,000 from the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) to go Blu-ray exclusive. According to Matt Buchanan at Gizmondo, "Warner actually wanted to go HD DVD. They gave Toshiba the chance to bring another studio into the HD DVD camp before they turned Blu. Fox was lined up, and told the HD DVD camp it was going to switch to HD DVD, which would've also turned Warner exclusively HD DVD. At the last possible minute, it nixed the deal." Gizmondo also reports that Don Lindich from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette received inside information a week before the switch. Quoting Lindich, "It's because Fox received a reported $120 million payout from Sony to stay Blu-ray—Warner then switched and received between $400 and $500 million for its defection".[36] According to Lindich's article for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, "With no studio joining them on the HD DVD side, Warner's hand was forced and it went with Blu-ray, receiving a reported $500 million for doing so".[37] This was followed by news of Netflix phasing out support for the format, and Best Buy's decision to recommend Blu-ray Disc over HD DVD in its retail locations and to remove HD DVD players as part of its ongoing "HDTV advantage" promotion. Finally, retailer Wal-Mart announced that it would be supporting only Blu-ray Disc by June 2008. On February 19, 2008, Toshiba announced plans to discontinue development, marketing and manufacturing of HD DVD players while still providing product support and after-sale service to consumers of the format (including firmware updates). The company cited "recent major changes in the market".[38] Shipments of HD DVD machines to retailers were reduced and eventually stopped by the end of March 2008.[39]

The size of the discs mattered little, like previous posters have mentioned, no one uses BD's for computer storage, not now not then, access is slow and limited size and little compatibility that someone else will have a BD/HD DVD drive to transfer info to if physically transporting data. I use a Mac exclusively and even though they supported BD, they never opted to support BD, actually phasing out optical drives altogether. Flash media is more readily used for this type or an external enclosure drive. Between 2006-08, no one would use a BD or HD DVD to store data or transport, they had external drives then too with faster transfer rates. At the time of launch up to HD DVD's demise the majority of HD DVD discs were already using the 30gb discs while most BD's were using 25 and MPEG-2. HD DVD's used mostly VC-1 which is on par with MPEG-4 which most early BD's hadn't used yet.

The one thing Sony did right was put a bd drive in every PS3, while Microsoft didn't even support their own software with the launch of the Xbox, relying on the add on drive later. This would have more to do with early failures of HD DVD rather than capacity. BD's took 10 years to go from 50gb to 100gb, while HD DVD had already a 51gb disc in the works within 2 years of launch.

The reason for HD DVD's failure has more to do with Sony throwing money at the studios under the table and having their own large film studio to work from. If you look at sales early on, up to 2007 HD DVD was outselling BD like 2-1. Looking back Blu-ray has been a costly investment and a bag of hurt for Sony. They should have looked to online streaming like Netflix and digital downloads which is what most consumers want now. Discs are old world technology and at some point will be forced to phase out.
 
#45 ·
Yeah. It took after the war before the dual layer Blu-rays came out cost effectively, and HD-DVDs were dual layer from he get go with triple and quads demo'd. (Being DVD based, and DVDs had mastered the dual layer art ages ago, it was trivial to extend it to HD-DVD).

Computer storage is a joke - few people buy Blu-Ray blanks, and all my burners support bd-xl which I've not seen a disc for sale. I know of one person who uses them for storage, and he doesn't do it much - media pricing, speed, and well, a portable hard drive is faster and more capacious.

Heck, you'd think PCs would use it to distribute their 30GB games, but no, everyone still uses DVD. It didn't take long for DVD drives to be standard in a PC, yet Blu-Ray drives are rare, and they're not exactly that much more expensive.

4k Blu-Ray is probably end of the line, reserved for very high end applications because the public wants to go netflix and streaming.
 
#49 ·
Yeah, VMD is one I never heard about... Must've died before the war started because it was only between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. The only advantage I saw is really cheap players - given they use red lasers which at the time was stupidly cheap over the blue lasers used by both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
 
#52 ·
Quick question, two actually: Do any modern gaming consoles or any other device play HD-DVD's? I have an old player not used in many moons, but may be in the market for a gaming console, so just curious. Also, someone mentioned ripping to the computer. I assume I would need an HD-DVD driver for that? Certainly don't have that. My 2010 era PC does have a Blu-Ray drive, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't read the HD-DVD. I'm assuming my only option, unless I hear otherwise, for playing my few HD-DVD's is going to be the old Toshiba player.

Thanks,
RT
 
#53 ·
The XBox360 has an optional external HD-DVD drive that plays HD-DVDs. It came with software for the XBox 360 and a remote control, as I recall. It also works as an external drive when connected via usb to a computer. There are also other external drives I've seen occasionally & internal computer HD-DVD drives as well that can be loaded into a desktop computer or installed in an external drive case. Playback software will be an issue since most programs dropped support long ago or never updated programs to work in newer op systems.
 
#60 ·
According to FoolintheRain "Just to let you know the electronics of both of the Tosh are the same. You just get a backlit remote, a motorized front cover, and the rs232 port, along with a heavier chasis"

Unless those differences are what's driving your decision why not just look for an A1?

Stace
 
#62 ·
The format war is what brought me here and I was hardcore red. Why? Java sucks, encrypted media is a PITA, but finally a couple years ago players are cheap and powerful enough and the standard mature enough for it to be affordable. HD-DVD was the consumer's format. Blu-ray was the studio's. But hey, we got a nice scratch-resistant coating.

But now, we have streaming media: Ultraviolet, Amazon, itunes, etc etc. With Disc-to-digital I've been able to legitimately buy/convert movies for $1 a piece. I don't have the big money audiophile set up any more. AQ/PQ may not be as good but since the studios weren't really pushing that in the first place with discs full of DNR, bad encodes, etc in many cases I rather save money AND have a bigger collection.
 
#63 ·
I rooted for HD-DVD thinking it would be cheaper (and players of course were) and that Microsoft would natively support it in Vista Media Center (which never happened).

Like several others I bought the 360 drive and a lot of discs in 2010. I'm glad I archived them to MKV, as at least a third of them fail now.
 
#65 ·
I converted all my HD DVDs to BD ISOs years ago and my Dunes play them flawlessly. I still have a brand new XA2 in the box in my attic. In a few more years I'll contact the Smithsonian to see if they want it for an exhibit.:D
 
#66 ·
I originally bought the A1, then after that the XA1 and the Onkyo version (plus I think it's an A2 I have as well). My Onkyo HD DVD player has worked flawlessly and still plays my large HD DVD collection (I can't be bothered with the time and expense of replacing them with Blu-Ray when the collection plays fine). I have a new-in-box XA1 and A2 that I thought I'd need as backup, but my Onkyo doesn't seem like it's giving up the ghost any time soon.
 
#67 ·
Let me tell you about the High Def wars Sonny :)


I recall getting my first Toshiba A-1 player from some sort of third party promotion, some airline catalogue ?? that some member put up, boy was that exciting time, that box was beautiful, I remember running down to Best Buy, and Circuit City which had a so call sale on HD-DVD's I think I purchased Serenity first, alone with a few other.. AND WOW that picture looked like nothing I ever seen on my Pio 50incher in that time, it rival anything on broadcast networks, I was HOOKED! I did purchased an XA-1 Tosh down the road, which was even sexier, faster, featured packed than the A-1


I must had purchased a little over 200 disc, it was great, unit till that dreadful January !:eek:


We fought a good format war, but at the end it wasn't the consumer's out come that lead the decisive blow!


Djoel
 
#68 ·
I recall driving up to VE to pick up my new A1 from the initial shipment

He had so many A1's delivered he had to store many of them outside on the sidewalk in front of his store

Really a shame the way this whole thing went: I had no idea of the firestorm that would be created starting that day: I never intended to end up in the middle of it
 
#69 ·
I came into it late, in the sense that I pretty much knew the format war was lost.

I bought my HD-A35 just around the time that Toshiba punted. I was always going to go to both formats, and planned on an Oppo 83 (which I got in 2010). I figured that I could get a reasonably priced HD-A35 (around 250) and load up on very cheap very good movies.

So during the time when people were dropping 30 to 40 dollars on blurays, I was getting a library of about 300 titles (including 300), for about 4 dollars a piece. They are now mostly MKV's, played through an Oppo 103D, but I still play an HD-DVD every two weeks or so, and enjoy it as much as I did originally.

I really enjoyed the format, and have the discs still. The only weakness, and it's due to the time of printing is that about half have lossy audio, but it doesn't really take away from enjoying the movies.

I figure it's about the movies, so HD-DVD really worked out for me.
 
#70 ·
I went into HD-DVD after seeing the initial tear down of the A1 showing it to be a full PC, so I bought it for that (especially with a $50 off $500 coupon from best buy), then bought a ps3 for the Blu-Ray. Because back then the cheapest Blu-Ray player was over $1000 and they were pretty bad. Preferred the format because Blu-Ray was quite awful - no extras or anything on the disc. As someone who loved extras, well, that left HD-DVD. It took Blu-Ray profile 2.0 to accomplish everything HD-DVD had at the get go and then it was only the ps3 that had that feature.
 
#72 ·
I think there's a lot of rose colored glasses here.

First the mythical HD DVD 51 disc never materialized. We never did get answer if it was backwards compatible with the current players. The most likely scenario was that it was probably not and hence it was dropped. BD50 discs were working fine within a year or so of Blu-day's release.

Next money was being thrown from both camps. Paramount was dual support until late summer 2007. Toshiba paid them for sole support of HD-DVD to get the biggest money of that summer locked up on HD-DVD. I just find it funny how the HD DVD supporters discount the payouts that their camp made.

HD-DVD had an uphill climb from day one. They had limited hardware support and limited studio support initially. The studios played both Toshiba and Sony. The fact is that HD media may have died if they went much beyond 2007 without a winner declared.

The smoking gun in all of this was the PS3. After that console launched BD titles started taking the weekly sales charts.
 
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