First HD-DVD Titles Announced - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cybersoga
I'd love to jump on the bandwagon as soon as the hardware is released, but when I think about it, I don't think it's such a good idea. I don't want to end up buying two players to play all of what's on offer, I like films from Sony as much as Warner. I havn't got the room for 2 players, and i've only got one component input on my display (i don't want to have to use a switch box).
Buy one and have a friend/neighbor buy the other. Then swap players and/or movies for a month or so. I'm still not sure if movies will be available for rent early, in which case you might just be able to swap players. Okay, not the most convenient, but just an idea.

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post #92 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 07:48 AM
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I find it highly suspicious, that for a format that is coming out in a few months, we don't know *anything* about the copy protection schemes.


There is no way Hollywood won't screw this up in several ways.
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post #93 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 10:43 AM
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I see HD formats as a hard sell, as they have to compete with a established DVD format.

Look at what BR and HD are going up against. New DVD's can be had for under $6.00 for good movies. DVD players are in everything (computers, cars, personal, stand alone...) and can be bought for $50.00 and under. DVD's are well established and people like them alot. Most everyone can not display HD anything. More then most anyone could care less about HD.

Who (in the general public) in their right mind is going to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a HD set, two HD players and HD discs at $40.00 a pop, when they already have a system that is looks just as good (at least to their eyes) and is already paid for?

I think these guys coming out with HD are in for a big suprise, as it will never be the money maker DVD is, as long as they have DVD to compete against.

I'm not even sold on HD as of yet and I have one of the best displays you can have (9" CRT, 161" screen) and would probably see the biggest improvement in image quality. Right now DVD's can look very film like and keep getting better all the time. I can rent them for free or very cheaply, you can buy them at yard sales for a couple of bucks, new movies that I have not seen yet that are a couple of years old can be had for the price of popcorn, new movies are under $20.00.

It will probably be a good 5 years (if ever) before I get into HD. Hopefully by that time they will have this mess all strightened out, players will be out for computers for under $100.00, the movies will be under $30.00, they will have figured out how to get HD onto a disc...

And what about regular DVD, in all this time will it be even more dominate, being cheaper, even higher resolution (better compression software, found a way to put more info on a disc) and still plays on your old DVD player.

Deron.

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post #94 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 12:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by absolutic
Who's got James Bond? Is it Sony or HD-Forum?

I will have to buy all the James Bond movies since i am a huge fan. That way the Entertainment Industry would have accomplished making a complete sucker out of me: I will own every James Bond on VHS, DVD, and HD-DVD:)

Another issue is that I'd really want to read the reviews on each and every movie there if the cost of the dvds would go up to $40. Some movies are just grainy and HD DVD simply won't help these.
I'm with you man:D That's why i'm going with BLU-RAY because that's what i plan to purchase, i too am a bond fan:cool:
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post #95 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hartley
I find it highly suspicious, that for a format that is coming out in a few months, we don't know *anything* about the copy protection schemes.
Actually, we already know close to *everything* about the copy protection schemes (and DRM). Say hello to AACS and HDCP, both all but done deals for HD-DVD and Blu-ray:

http://www.aacsla.com/media/aacs_tec...iew_040721.pdf

www.digital-cp.com/data/HDCPlicense10042004.pdf

http://www.digital-cp.com/data/HDCPS...tionRev1_1.pdf

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post #96 of 163 Old 01-12-2005, 09:24 PM
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>Say hello to AACS

Interesting.

A quick search shows the guys at Slashdot are not particularly impressed:

"Long story short, the MPAA is being sold a lot of snake oil. It's too bad that they're too technologically clueless to realize it."


http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...1748210&tid=93
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post #97 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Hartley,

The /. peanut gallery is hardly impressed with anything, not that that carries much weight in reality.

Two of the largest pre-recorded content providers in the world (well, three, counting Sony as CTHE) were intimately involved in the development of AACS, and it satisfies their needs. That's what matters.

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post #98 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped
I see HD formats as a hard sell, as they have to compete with a established DVD format.

Look at what BR and HD are going up against. New DVD's can be had for under $6.00 for good movies. DVD players are in everything (computers, cars, personal, stand alone...) and can be bought for $50.00 and under. DVD's are well established and people like them alot. Most everyone can not display HD anything. More then most anyone could care less about HD.

Who (in the general public) in their right mind is going to go out and spend thousands of dollars on a HD set, two HD players and HD discs at $40.00 a pop, when they already have a system that is looks just as good (at least to their eyes) and is already paid for?

I think these guys coming out with HD are in for a big suprise, as it will never be the money maker DVD is, as long as they have DVD to compete against.

I'm not even sold on HD as of yet and I have one of the best displays you can have (9" CRT, 161" screen) and would probably see the biggest improvement in image quality. Right now DVD's can look very film like and keep getting better all the time. I can rent them for free or very cheaply, you can buy them at yard sales for a couple of bucks, new movies that I have not seen yet that are a couple of years old can be had for the price of popcorn, new movies are under $20.00.

It will probably be a good 5 years (if ever) before I get into HD. Hopefully by that time they will have this mess all strightened out, players will be out for computers for under $100.00, the movies will be under $30.00, they will have figured out how to get HD onto a disc...

And what about regular DVD, in all this time will it be even more dominate, being cheaper, even higher resolution (better compression software, found a way to put more info on a disc) and still plays on your old DVD player.

Deron.
You mention that you are not even sold on HD yet? You mean you aren't impressed with the quality or you aren't convinced it will survive?

I don't see how one can't be impressed with HD if you have a good system. If you have a good system and aren't impressed you must have a really crappy provider. There is a big spread in content quality out there, but on the whole, HD is insanely better than SD. I have a hard time even watching SD channels anymore.

I do agree with you that it will take quite a while for HD-DVD or BR to take off. I think the only way it will do well is if they do put HD and SD on the same disc and phase out DVD. Then everyone can use the discs anywhere they want and then take full advantage of them once they eventually get a player.

If they don't go this route, it is going to be a long and tedious journey. We thought Frodo had it rough!
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post #99 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped

I'm not even sold on HD as of yet and I have one of the best displays you can have (9" CRT, 161" screen) and would probably see the biggest improvement in image quality. Right now DVD's can look very film like and keep getting better all the time.n.
DVDs simply stink compared to HD when you watch them on a 9 inch CRT. They do not look film like compared to HD because they lack the resolution and almost always are polluted with digital shenanigans to hide that lack of resolution. DVDs are pretty hopeless if your goal is a film-like experience. If everything is done right on a DVD it looks quite nice, but wide shots still fall miserably apart compared to the same shot in HD.
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post #100 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped

I'm not even sold on HD as of yet and I have one of the best displays you can have (9" CRT, 161" screen) and would probably see the biggest improvement in image quality. Right now DVD's can look very film like and keep getting better all the time. I can rent them for free or very cheaply, you can buy them at yard sales for a couple of bucks, new movies that I have not seen yet that are a couple of years old can be had for the price of popcorn, new movies are under $20.00.

It will probably be a good 5 years (if ever) before I get into HD. Hopefully by that time they will have this mess all straightened out, players will be out for computers for under $100.00, the movies will be under $30.00, they will have figured out how to get HD onto a disc...

And what about regular DVD, in all this time will it be even more dominate, being cheaper, even higher resolution (better compression software, found a way to put more info on a disc) and still plays on your old DVD player.

Deron.
Well,

You may need to see what HD looks like so you understand. I have seen HD on Art's G-90 stack (as long as we are comparing systems) and it is nothing short of amazing. Throw in the same DVD afterwords and you can see how week a format it is.

From my perspective, I have a pretty good projector as well (Qualia w/ ISF calibration). DVD look great on it. No doubt. But when I put in D-Theater HD content, it is a whole other ball game. The difference is stark to say the least.

Yes, DVDs ae cheap but who cares! Most here want Hi Def content and will pay for it. I have about 200 Laser Discs upstairs that averaged in cost to about $40 each. Many including myself were happy to pay the premium. That hasn't changed. If you are a true hobbyist, wanting HD content should be at the top of your list.

(but that said, you may never be able to enjoy it on your 9" CRT as HD may not be able to be accepted via analog inputs. HDCP and HDMI look to be the HD conduit of the future.)

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #101 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mhafner
DVDs simply stink compared to HD when you watch them on a 9 inch CRT. They do not look film like compared to HD because they lack the resolution and almost always are polluted with digital shenanigans to hide that lack of resolution. DVDs are pretty hopeless if your goal is a film-like experience. If everything is done right on a DVD it looks quite nice, but wide shots still fall miserably apart compared to the same shot in HD.
I wholehearted agree with you. I had a 32" Toshiba tube for years and thought DVDs were incredible until I got my 46" Sammy DLP about 2 months ago. Once you get a high rez tv and a larger screen, the flaws in DVD become easily apparent. There are some pretty decent DVDs out there but I think they are few and far between. DVDs are optimized for standard non-HD sets. Our HD capable TVs are too good for DVDs and show all the hidden flaws in the transfer.

You mentioned how wide shots fall short. I hate looking at medium to long range shots on a less than par DVD transfer. They are so blurry. Prime example is TROY. Close shots look decent but they pan out at all and the film looks pretty bad.

I much prefer to watch a movie on HBO or Showtime HD than on the DVD in most cases. They aren't perfect but the generally beat out the DVD in color and resolution.

I'm very curious to how good a BR or HD-DVD actually looks. Will it look like something like an HBO HD movie or will it blow that out of the water. I can't wait to see a demo next fall. Now that I have HD and see what good HD looks like, anything less just falls short. I'm am floored watching stuff on HD Discovery Theater that is done well.
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post #102 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amillians
Two of the largest pre-recorded content providers in the world (well, three, counting Sony as CTHE) were intimately involved in the development of AACS, and it satisfies their needs. That's what matters.
History is not on the side of "DRM".

So far the only successful schemes have involved proprietary media (Gamecube) or peripheral formats that nobody cared to crack.
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post #103 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 10:57 AM
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I'm just gonna post this bit of press release here:
Quote:
Pioneer are about to launch at CES this week the company's ninth-generation high-speed, dual format DVD burner and are demonstrating for the first time new Blu-ray Disc prototypes for home and computer high-definition video recording.
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/146073


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"DonÂt let them tell you who you are is not enough, that itÂs wrong and that you wonÂt find love. DonÂt let them use my life to put your future down, or tell you that happiness canÂt be found."
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post #104 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mchuckp

I'm very curious to how good a BR or HD-DVD actually looks. Will it look like something like an HBO HD movie or will it blow that out of the water. I can't wait to see a demo next fall. Now that I have HD and see what good HD looks like, anything less just falls short. I'm am floored watching stuff on HD Discovery Theater that is done well.
BR and HD-DVD will look better than HBO HD or any other channels, but not be in an altogether different league. It's still the same transfers, just less compressed and maybe in time without vertical filtering. At best expect more a difference like letterbox DVD at 4 Mbit/s versus anamorphic at 8 Mbit/s.
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post #105 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 03:18 PM
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Sound & Vision has an article on HD-DVD vs. Blue Ray this month. Nothing special, but it's got some decent info.

Vimeo is the home of the Super8 Shooter...
http://vimeo.com/super8shooter
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post #106 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mhafner
If everything is done right on a DVD it looks quite nice, but wide shots still fall miserably apart compared to the same shot in HD.
This is my experience. The other day I was comparing a few upconverted DVDs (1080i) to a few D-Theater titles and at times I would think the DVD looked good but certainly not nearly as nice until I focused on the background. At that point it became very hard to keep viewing knowing what I was missing.
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post #107 of 163 Old 01-13-2005, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mhafner
BR and HD-DVD will look better than HBO HD or any other channels, but not be in an altogether different league. It's still the same transfers, just less compressed and maybe in time without vertical filtering. At best expect more a difference like letterbox DVD at 4 Mbit/s versus anamorphic at 8 Mbit/s.
I was watching Drumline from HBO-HD the other day from Comcast (I don't believe they are adding any extra compression) and during fast movements or flashing lights it would do a lot of macroblocking (I believe this is the word for it). I was thinking that if this were HD-DVD or BluRay they would probably correct for something like that (possibly by going less detailed during that time), where with live broadcasts it just goes through. That is, if the person doing the mastering cares enough. So, besides the less compression, I think this non-realtime issue could help the prerecorded content.

I still haven't seen anything definitive about the first HD-DVD transfers being one of the newer codecs and not MPEG2. It seems that a lot of people are assuming that they will be using a new codec out of the gate, but it won't shock me if the first releases are MPEG2 at 15GB and then followon releases are with a newer codec. If they are MPEG2 at 15GB then I won't be expecting a whole lot.

--Darin

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post #108 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
It seems that a lot of people are assuming that they will be using a new codec out of the gate, but it won't shock me if the first releases are MPEG2 at 15GB and then followon releases are with a newer codec. If they are MPEG2 at 15GB then I won't be expecting a whole lot.
--Darin
I agree, I will not be surprised that I will not be happily surprised with the hd-dvd quality. Plus you can assume to get single layer discs @ initial release and 15gb does not go a long way at all. I've seen tv captures of films roughly 2 hours that consume 10-13 gigs. Doesnt leave a lot of room for improvement.
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post #109 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 09:32 AM
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BluRay and HD-DVD WILL be a niche market product for some time.

Consider this:

Most homes still do not have 16x9 sets.
65% of Plasma sales last year were for ED (not HD) sets.
$200 is the "magic" price-point where sales start to take off.
Decent Progressive DVD players can now be had for $100 or less.
Many sets already out do not have HDMI w/HDCP - Component Only.
The mass-market is DVD. HD or BR-DVD will have a LONG way to catch up.

So, instead of trying to push this into the consumer space, why don't these companies focus instead on the high-end of the market? I don't want a $1,000 BR-DVD player which will be as good as a $100 DVD player (in terms of features, function and flexibility), I want a $3,000 BR-DVD player which is aimed at the audiophile/videophile marketplace and has been really thought out.

Don't make the discs $20, make them $50, but include only the BEST transfers which have as little compression as possible.

Of the over 500 movies I own, there are only like 50 or so which I would want in HD anyway. I play the DVDs on a HTPC which, for many of the discs, increases the quality to near HD anyway (I have other HD sources to compare it to).

Please, for once, realize that the entire consumer-electronics industry is not going to switch over to BR or HD-DVD in anything less than 5+ years or more. The market for these is the audiophile/videophile. This COULD end up being another DVD-A vs. SACD war, and we ALL KNOW how badly that turned out. The best answer would be a compromise prior to launch and a marketing strategy which is aimed squarely at the "high-end".

Too late for either now. Too bad.

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post #110 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 10:02 AM
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I agree completely.
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post #111 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 10:31 AM
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The reasons I say I'm not sold on HD yet is.

There really is nothing out there yet in HD. Even DVD still has quite a ways to go in getting more content.

HD is going to be very expensive for a very long time compared to DVD.

I may not even be able to display HD or BR on my system.

DVD's can and do look very good and they are getting better all the time.

I can play DVD's in everything I own right now.

Let's see, I want to watch a concert DVD (my favorite thing to view), well, guess what, it's not availble in HD anything, so I refuse to watch these piss poor DVD's. I will only watch HD as DVD's stink. Might as well bolt the door to the theater for a few years as I wait and save for HD.

Deron.

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post #112 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 10:51 AM
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Lets put it this way, I will buy into HD when these things are met.

I can get a player that will work in my computer.

The price of this player is under $500.00.

This player will play both BR and HDDVD.

I will be able to view this content with my CRT.

The discs are under $30.00 for concert DVD's.

The discs are under $15.00 for movies.

If I can not get the movies for under $15.00 then I would rent them for under $5.00.

When the quality of the image and sound on the disc is top notch.

I guess I'm stuck with regular DVD's for years to come.

Deron.

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post #113 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 12:51 PM
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Since I was a child of the 50's and 60's DVD's of today seem good enough for now. I remember only having 3-4 channels of TV to view and that was in B/W. We never could talk our Dad into buying a color set. I never owned a color set until the mid 80's and been married for 5 years. With that in mind I figure what I have now with a widescreen TV and a HTiB is light years ahead of anything I ever thought of owning. DVD's of todays quality is wonderful compared to what I used to have. With that I am real grateful. So I can wait quite sometime until HD-DVD's tech becomes more common place and a whole lot cheaper. Right now I would rather have a fast computer with a spiffy Vid Card then shell out money for any HD-Tech. I already have HDTV/Cable and that is good enough for now. In any event to have a good computer and soon(a few years) get a later version of a Media Computer set-up would be more beneficial then to spend top dollar for the first HD-Tech equipment...

Just my thoughts....
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post #114 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped
Let's see, I want to watch a concert DVD (my favorite thing to view), well, guess what, it's not availble in HD anything, so I refuse to watch these piss poor DVD's.
VOOM shows quite a few concerts in HD. And HDNet and INHD also have concerts. I believe these are generally 5.1 sound, but I could be wrong.
Quote:
Lets put it this way, I will buy into HD when these things are met.

I can get a player that will work in my computer.

The price of this player is under $500.00.

This player will play both BR and HDDVD.

I will be able to view this content with my CRT.

The discs are under $30.00 for concert DVD's.

The discs are under $15.00 for movies.

If I can not get the movies for under $15.00 then I would rent them for under $5.00.

When the quality of the image and sound on the disc is top notch.

I guess I'm stuck with regular DVD's for years to come.


When the quality of the image and sound on the disc is top notch.

I guess I'm stuck with regular DVD's for years to come.
So, in other words, if all other things are met, but you can't play them in your PC you will stick with DVDs. Even with their inferior image and sound. Will you still imply that others don't care about image quality because they don't use a projector like your's? ;)

I'm kidding, but it sounds like you won't be an early adopter. No problem. They don't expect to get everybody and this is all personal choice. I would say that most of the market they are going after has one requirement opposite from yours. The vast majority of the potential market out there probably wouldn't buy if they had to play from a PC.

--Darin

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post #115 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 05:21 PM
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Some of my simple comments.

I have had Comcast HD for a year. Now I have a difficult time even watching good quality DVD's.

I am not an early adopter, but what I call a "mid" adopter because I like to wait for prices to drop a little because the initial price drop is always larger than the price drop later. So I probably won't get the early HD DVD's (whichever one comes out) until the price drops enough to justify my enjoyment vs cost. For instance, I was dying to get a 42" Plasma when the prices were over $10K. I waited till they got down under $6K, then got lucky and got one at $4.5K (today the same set is under $3K).

Whatever...HD is sooooo nice compared to DVD that I can't wait till the prices are within reason. And $1,000 for a player is way too much.
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post #116 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 06:25 PM
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I really doubth that I have to worry that they will not come out with a player for computers. That should be a big money maker for them.

I should point out one other reason I do not buy into HD as of yet. Look at all the people it has spoiled. Watch some HD material and guess what, DVD becomes less enjoyable. I'm not going to torture myself, waiting, watching, searching, hoping as HD starts to trickle out at rediculous prices. I will let you guys do that.

What's the saying, "Ignorance is bliss". And, I have to say, it works real well.

Deron.

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post #117 of 163 Old 01-14-2005, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped
I should point out one other reason I do not buy into HD as of yet. Look at all the people it has spoiled. Watch some HD material and guess what, DVD becomes less enjoyable. I'm not going to torture myself, waiting, watching, searching, hoping as HD starts to trickle out at rediculous prices. I will let you guys do that.

What's the saying, "Ignorance is bliss". And, I have to say, it works real well.
That is a good point.

--Darin

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post #118 of 163 Old 01-20-2005, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deronmoped
Even DVD still has quite a ways to go in getting more content.
So 41,560 titles isn't enough for you? ;)

--Jerome
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post #119 of 163 Old 01-22-2005, 07:49 AM
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There are actually three optical disc HD formats. Remember WMV9? I have a couple of the discs and I think they look gorgeous. I'd be happy with this instead of BR and HDDVD. Does anybody know what's going on with WMV9?

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post #120 of 163 Old 01-23-2005, 07:52 AM
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It's interesting (but not surprising IMO) that the initial announcement for HD-DVD includes 89 titles, when the D-Theater releases are only 96 titles after 2-1/2 years.

I wonder when we'll be able to include HD-DVD titles in our Netflix queue?
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