Will HD-DVD PC output be restriced to 480p? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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If standalone HD-DVD will only be 480p over component, why would Toshiba allow unrestricted PC playback?

Anyone think new videocards with hardware HDCP are forthcoming?

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post #2 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 10:57 AM
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in the WMV- HD thread in the forum, some members who are also working with Miscrosoft did mention that HDCP displays are needed and that Miscrosoft is working on something to make the Windows envoroment HD-DVD ready. They also mentioned that futture videocard will indeed have HDCP
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 11:10 AM
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That's the thing with HTPC verses a consumer DVD player -- with the HTPC, there will *always* be a way around resolution limitations.
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 11:18 AM
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Optimist- They want everyone with a PC to be able to watch HD-DVD on their existing monitor. As such, it would have to work via DVI and VGA. Everyone wins.

Pessimist- They are such azzholes that they will block regular DVI and VGA and require a new video card/display with HDCP. Scumbag MPAA wins.
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 11:38 AM
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Pragmatist - Whatever they do it will probably be annoying enough that we will just hack it to get around all these restrictions anyway, just as with CSS, region coding, macrovision, etc.

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post #6 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mattsoft
That's the thing with HTPC verses a consumer DVD player -- with the HTPC, there will *always* be a way around resolution limitations.
Hardware is changing.. real/strong crypto is being integrated into many pieces. These will not be easily crackable, like CSS.


I think it's unlikely that there will be some sort of downres requirement, because to downres it the video data would need to be in the computer in the clear - which would put it at risk of copying. It's more likely to be an all-or-nothing situation. If your mobo, video card, display, BIOS, and OS all have support for the DRM + crypto, it will work. If not, too bad. In your compliant computer, the data is never available on the host system in an unencrypted format.


If you value your fair use rights, the flexibility your HTPC gives you, and continuing the high rate of innovation in the digital media space, don't just stand by and assume someone else will fix it for you. Support the EFF ( http://www.eff.org/ ), Public Knowledge ( http://www.publicknowledge.org/issues/bfcase ), write your congressional representatives, write the FCC... make your voice heard.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveFi
If standalone HD-DVD will only be 480p over component...
Forgive my ignorance, but where does this information come from?

Why would anyone create a standard with 1080i material, only to have the hardware downrez the content? They must think us consumers is juz plane stupid:D

Hammer
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-09-2005, 02:35 PM
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Will HD-DVDs play at native res on a computer straight up thanks to the various vendors responsible for the components involved? I don't know.

Will I be able to watch HD-DVDs in their native res from my HTPC? Yes.

-Suntan
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-19-2005, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hammerdwn
Forgive my ignorance, but where does this information come from?

Why would anyone create a standard with 1080i material, only to have the hardware downrez the content? They must think us consumers is juz plane stupid:D

Hammer
well US consumers in the AVSforum...you are correct. But also remember we are the majority. don't beleive me? Go to best buy and eaves drop on people looking at tv's. Then see what the masses really don't know ;)

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post #10 of 19 Old 01-19-2005, 11:22 AM
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My main application for my HTPC nowadays is HDTV viewing via MyHD hardware. I still rent DVDs but not as many as I used to. I use these four modes more or less in this order:

1) Live HDTV OTA broadcasts in realtime.
2) Unattended recording of HD transport streams to hard drive for timeshifting.
3) Creating/viewing select programming archived to DVD as HD transport streams.
4) HD-PVR function (just experimenting with the Beta2 PVR code now).

I can't see changing my habits as long as I can continue to view unencrypted OTA broadcasts in the native 720p/1080i format on my analog RGB projector. I am considering adding a second HTPC/MyHD in my Home Theater just for "dual tuner" record capability, with a simple KVM multiplexor to switch between them. (I have enough miscellaneous pieces to build such.)

I actually think many years will pass before OTA broadcasts are encrypted, since very little of the installed base of HD hardware is fully broadcast-flag compatible - they would lose too many viewers today. It is possible today to archive and playback OTA broadcast programming to red-laser DVD in transport stream format as data recordings - and I think this technique will continue to work for the forseeable future:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=458141

I believe the only form of DRM that may trouble me at least in the near future is whatever is in place on whatever format of HD media that first becomes available for rental at my local video stores. Whatever media this is I expect will I will not spend one minute of angst because I don't know whether this is D-VHS, HD-DVD, or Blu-Ray. Whatever it is will probably replace my current DVD rental activity, and I'll make what changes are required to the Home Theater to accomodate the new media.

What, Me Worry?

Gary

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post #11 of 19 Old 01-21-2005, 07:41 PM
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How many people can get their hands on an RGB encoder card for less than $1K and know how to use it? Common sense comlpetely escapes them.

I wonder how much it would cost to add a HDMI port and DA chipset to a $250 19" CRT monitor.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-21-2005, 09:14 PM
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There are already video cards like the Radeon X800 that are HDCP ready and will probably be activated for use with Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The Radeon X800 is "DVI 1.0 / HDMI compliant and HDCP ready", which is located just above the "2D display modes" section. I'm not sure whether down resolution will actually be done on computers, but I am sure that Hollywood wants it.


Quote:
Originally posted by TheFerret
I wonder how much it would cost to add a HDMI port and DA chipset to a $250 19" CRT monitor.
I would guess around $50 if a lot of manufacturers decide to do it.
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post #13 of 19 Old 01-21-2005, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
I would guess around $50 if a lot of manufacturers decide to do it.
If its $50 then its a non-issue.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-22-2005, 02:23 PM
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The low-end front projectors with decent-enough specs that I would consider replacing my 3-year-old NEC VT-540 with start around $2000 and are getting cheaper. That gets you a decent brightness level and enough resolution to do justice to HDTV in a native 16:9 projector with HDMI.

It would positively annoy me to replace an RGB projector I paid $3000 for at the time - offset somewhat by the better specs and the fact I'd be doing an "upgrade". I have used several video boards over the 6 years I've been doing the HTPC thing, that's not a worry. I doubt if I'd bother to convert any PC monitor to HDMI - in any screen under 36" I'd prefer to own an integrated HDTV with an open slot for the cable or DSS HD tuner card of my choice. (This would be the wife's TV, I love the big screen myself.)

I don't know about the rest of you but the projector is about #3 in my expense list for 6 years of Home Theater. I rented something over 1600 DVDs for an average cost of about $3.50 apiece - that's my #1 expense. The second greatest expense is the DVDs I own, followed by the projector in third place.

This is too good a hobby to give up unless they manage to mess up the DRM thing and annoy me. My DVD rentals and purchases should indicate to Hollywood that I am willing to spend money on their products - and I'll gladly pay a small incremental bit more for HD media rental and purchase.

For the record, I've never uploaded or downloaded any movie or even TV program. In fact I've never abused any audio music copyrights either. I have occasionally timeshifted a rental DVD to hard drive for watching a film after the disk was due back - but those were temporary copies and I didn't retain a single one.

I'm watching how the DRM thing developes. If IMHO they end up messing up my hobby they will no longer get my money for their products. End of story.

Gary

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post #15 of 19 Old 01-22-2005, 02:46 PM
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I hope that HD-DVD players will support component output @ 1080i, I would like to use my matrix switcher with a HD-DVD player so I can use it on both my TV's.

I am not sure I will buy one if it is DVI/HDMI only.

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post #16 of 19 Old 01-22-2005, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
The Radeon X800 is "DVI 1.0 / HDMI compliant and HDCP ready"
Does HDCP "ready" equal to "compliant"? If not what's the difference? And is there any other HDCP ready/compliant display card?

regards,

Li On
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-23-2005, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Li On
Does HDCP "ready" equal to "compliant"? If not what's the difference? And is there any other HDCP ready/compliant display card?
I believe that HDCP ready means that with a driver update they can activate HDCP on the video card's DVI output. Also all of ATI's new video cards are HDCP ready so I believe that Nvidia's new video cards are probably HDCP ready too.
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post #18 of 19 Old 01-24-2005, 08:05 AM
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I don't think HDCP on a video card is good enough by itself if the PC hosting the video card passes info in the clear over the bus? If the makers of hi-def recording disc technologies are truly paranoid about hi-def piracy, you would also need encryption of the data in system RAM and over the bus. The HDCP on the video card would be necessary but would not be SUFFICIENT for this purpose of defeating piracy.

Otherwise it's just too easy to write a framegrabber application for your PC that streams the video to disk instead of to the framebuffer RAM on the video card. *poof*--instant perfect digital copy. (Of course, you have to do this less than real-time due to the need for recompression in order to store your copy.) Beats an analog copy by far. It boggles the mind that they would enforce HDCP for hi-def video output, yet neglect this hole.

Admittedly, it would make it so much easier for that home media server enthusiasts like to have around--a couple of terabytes of storage for instant, on-demand playback of all 12+ hours of LoTR ripped straight from the high-def discs! Now we just have to figure out how to rip the audio. Since no audio cards for the PC do the new formats (DD+, DTS-HD) in hardware, which means the software in a PC playback app would have to do it, meaning it can be bit-for-bit copied by simple modification of the audio driver to "play" it to disk.

OK that's all pure speculation for now, but if I get a chance I'll ask my industry contact if they're worried or unconcerned about such shenanigans, based on economic concerns and projected losses. Still would like to find out the definitive answer about PC hi-def analog video playback...

(EDIT for clarification: this is not meant as a post advocating piracy. It is obviously meant as an example of why PC playback of hi-def software is legitimately problematic from the viewpoint of the paranoid, i.e. Hollywood.)
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-24-2005, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveFi
If standalone HD-DVD will only be 480p over component, why would Toshiba allow unrestricted PC playback?

Anyone think new videocards with hardware HDCP are forthcoming?
I would like to see a reference source that confirmes that there will either be no component or only down-rezed component.

I will still predict that these players will allow full-rez component outputs. There is no danger in doing this, and not doing it will kill the format. It will be so small that you will not find it even if you look hard.

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