Warner to use Microsoft Windows Media 9 (VC-1) in HD-DVDs - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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not so sure if this was already posted here, anyway just read froma german DVD site....

http://www.areadvd.de/news/2005/2005...-DVD_VC1.shtml

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Warner hat in den USA am Rande der Fachmesse NAB bekannt gegeben, für seine im Herbst geplanten HD-DVDs Microsoft Windows Media 9 als Kompressionsformat zu verwenden. Der von Microsoft entwickelte Video-Codec wird auf den HD-DVDs in der standardisierten Variante VC-1 verwendet werden. Diese wurde von der amerikanischen "Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers" (SMPTE) als Video-Standard für die HD-DVD abgesegnet. VC1 kann optional neben MPEG2 und MPEG4-AVC auf HD-DVDs verwendet werden und muss auf allen HD-DVD-Playern abspielbar sein.

Warner plant die Veröffentlichung der ersten HD-DVDs in den USA im vierten Quartal 2005. Geplant sind eine große Auswahl von Katalog-Titeln aber auch bereits neue Filme. Unter anderem sollen alle drei Harry Potter-Filme sowie die gesamte Matrix-Trilogie in den USA auf HD-DVD veröffentlicht werden.
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post #2 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 07:34 AM
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And in english:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...stry_warner_dc

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post #3 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 07:51 AM
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Warner Bros. has evaluated the video quality of VC-1 and found it to be outstanding, making it an ideal format for the delivery of high-definition content," said Chris Cookson, chief technology officer at Warner Bros. Entertainment. "By releasing a wide range of titles in VC-1, we are creating great new opportunities to bring high-definition video to consumers."
Come'on man don't blow smoke up my arse. You got some greenbacks or concessions with this deal. It doesn't matter anyways it'll all be transparent to the consumer. The real concession was made a while ago when both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray groups chose two codecs that basically offer the same thing to mate along with MPEG2.
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post #4 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 08:07 AM
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Warner Bros. has evaluated the video quality of VC-1 and found it to be outstanding, making it an ideal format for the delivery of high-definition content," said Chris Cookson, chief technology officer at Warner Bros. Entertainment. "By releasing a wide range of titles in VC-1, we are creating great new opportunities to bring high-definition video to consumers."
If Warner supported Blu-Ray, they'd have more data to write to and wouldn't need such an efficient compression format.

Hey Chris "blow-smoke" Cookson, we already know the only reason you've chosen HD-DVD over Blu-Ray is to save a little bit of money and that you don't give a rats-@$$ about the consumer. If you did, you'd be picking the best compression format AND the best disc format: Blu-Ray.

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post #5 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 09:20 AM
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agree with the rest just PR
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post #6 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 09:26 AM
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I have sent an e-mail to Chris Cookson and Jim Cardwell letting them know how I feel about it:

Quote:
Mr. ******,

I'd like to voice my opinion concerning Warner Brother's support of the HD-DVD format. Although I'm sure you have weighed the cost and benefits of HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray and found that HD-DVD is more compatible with WB, I'm afraid you may have overlooked what consumers want.

As a consumer, I can tell you that I want the highest possible quality. I'm not going to tell you why, technically, Blu-Ray is better...as I'm sure you're already aware. However, voicing the WB's support for VC-1 is NOT the answer. Can you imagine how much better your content would look if it was VC-1 AND filled up a Blu-Ray double-layer disc?

As far as consumers are concerned, the ONLY advantages of HD-DVD over Blu-Ray is cost to the studio. Sure, that may effect pricing passed on to the consumer, but, again, quality is king and HD consumers have clearly shown they are willing to pay for it.

It's obvious that it's too late for WB to switch to support for Blu-Ray, but, as much as I love WB's content, I have to say that I will NOT be supporting HD-DVD and, in turn, will NOT be purchasing WB products (HD, Non-HD, etc.). I won't purchase, subscribe, or watch any content that has anything with the WB logo on it.

I still hold hope that Blu-Ray will win the HD-disc format war and WB will be forced to re-release content in Blu-Ray. I really do enjoy WB's content, but not when consumers best interests are ignored.

Regards,

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post #7 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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have you guys been trying the wmv9 encoder ? its freeware and you can get it from MS.

not saying that it would be the same, but I am sure the VC-1 codec is very similar to the current wmv9 codec that is standard with Windows XP and media player 10

did some testing and there are options for "lossless" encoding and also 1080p@22mbps. Most of the current HD-WMV titles are usually only using about 9 or 10mbps.

What I'm saying is that mpeg4 or VC-1 codec at around 10mbps or even up to 22mbps is more than enough for HD-DVD.

try this sample

alexander
Audio: Windows Media Audio 48000Hz 6ch 440Kbps
Video: Windows Media Video 9 1920x1080 23.98fps 9600Kbps
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post #8 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 12:21 PM
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I actually own some WMVHD discs and they do look pretty good. And there's no doubt that HD movies will look great on HD-DVD. They'd still look better on Blu-Ray and you'd have more options for audio tracks, additional features, more episodes per disc, etc.

I don't care what anyone says about HD-DVD, no matter how many ways you slice it, the disc will NEVER hold as much data as a Blu-Ray disc will. And with 8-layer Blu-Rays in the works, it's unbeatable.

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post #9 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 12:30 PM
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VC-1 is a mandatory codec for both formats. And will produce better picture quality on HD-DVD compared to BD, if the latter uses MPEG-2. As such, mixing the format battle here with what Warner is trying to do with us makes little sense.

I assume everyone wants to have the best picture quality and anything that takes a step in that direction should be a good thing. To that end, this deal is about us working close with Warner to achieve the highest image qualtiy encoding possible with VC-1. We are lending our technical expertise to Warner to make sure the codec produces the best streams possible. They should not be faulted for trying to do better in their chose path.

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post #10 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 12:45 PM
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Amir, I totally agree! I just wish they would have chosen a different path.

Kudos to them to go to you for the best possible compression technical expertise. I think it's great that they are worried about the best quality available on that format.

Buy wouldn't you agree that, no matter what compression scheme a company uses, it would almost always look better at a higher data rate? I mean, we're not talking about uncompressed AVIs here.

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post #11 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 12:57 PM
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You are generally correct Chat that higher bit rates do improve picture quality. The question however, is how much better. General thinking is that once you achieve 15 Mbit/sec or so with advanced codecs such as VC-1, it is harder to see any incremental improvements.

Of course, you could always pick "pathological" cases where higher bit rates would be necessary. And people surely argue with the exact number where transparency is preceptually achieved.

My sense is that there is higly liklihood that at least some BD supporters will use MPEG-2 because there is enough capacity there to get reasonable HD quality together with some other business drivers. That temptation, might push them away from using more advanced compression technology, creating an interesting situation where the format with more capacity might wind up with somewhat lower picture quality! Of course, our hope is that they use something better but the jury is out until the real disks come out.

Put another way, my opionion is that people should be pushing for best compression technology first, disk format second!

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post #12 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 01:18 PM
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Once again, I agree Amir (partly because you probably wrote the WMP9 exporter for Adobe Premiere that I use every day ;)). But in all seriousness, I kinda figured your response would be "how much improvment?" especially at those data rates. And that's totally valid!

However, what's the likelyhood that Blu-Ray supporters are going to allow the picture quality of their films to be lesser than that of the best possible picture quality on HD-DVD? You know, probably better than I, that Blu-Ray also supports VC-1 (heck, you were probably in some of those meetings). Mpeg-2 was good in it's day. The 15-GOP length format was great for compression. Like you said, the jury is still out on compression formats actually used and the quality they turn out to be.

All I know is that, when I get a Blu-Ray burner (from Dell or whoever), I want my discs to be able to play my home-HD movies at the highest data rate VC-1 as possible. :D

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post #13 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 01:53 PM
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What I'm saying is that mpeg4 or VC-1 codec at around 10mbps or even up to 22mbps is more than enough for HD-DVD.
the problem is that @22mbps for video HD-DVD is not enough for it

22mbps=1320mbpm=165mBpm=9900mBph=9.9GBph HD-DVD only has 15 or 30GB and you have not added audio or anything else yet :)

The other thing is that highest quality audio should be added to match the video and so you need an equally high bit rate for it (assuming more then one audio track) so 30 GB becomes roughly 1.5h and 50GB of BR becomes 2.5h
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post #14 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 02:09 PM
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My sense is that there is higly liklihood that at least some BD supporters will use MPEG-2 because there is enough capacity there to get reasonable HD quality together with some other business drivers. That temptation, might push them away from using more advanced compression technology, creating an interesting situation where the format with more capacity might wind up with somewhat lower picture quality! Of course, our hope is that they use something better but the jury is out until the real disks come out.
Amir, even though I don't disagree with you with that possible scenario, it is still a week argument. Let's say one movie or 10 or 100 movies come out on BR using MPEG2

1) that does not mean that they would have been any better on HD-DVD, they might have used MPEG2 on HD-DVD and that would be worst

2) it does not mean that any other movies will be using MPEG2 and so other movies will be better on BR compared to HD-DVD

3) they might remake a higher quality remastering latter using an advanced codec and we might have an even better quality then HD-DVD.

The point is not that every BR movie is better then what could be done with HD-DVD, it is that BR has more potential for better transfers.

Let's face it any studio has the capability of taking any movie out there that is on 3 DS DVD and with nothing more put it on an HD-DVD and call it an HD-DVD version of the movie with some minor adjustments. So even though I agree it is easier for someone on the BR camp to say movie X using the highest quality MPEG2 is good enough it does not mean that someone in the HD-DVD camp can't do the same.
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post #15 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trailergod
not so sure if this was already posted here, anyway just read froma german DVD site....

http://www.areadvd.de/news/2005/2005...-DVD_VC1.shtml
Warner announcin mit USA we kessin Mickosoften Arssen. Mit custen git squiden.
Locken pateten upen, geten big bucken. Der combinin mit Warner wid Mickosoften
resulten Weldt dominin. Deuchland uber alles !

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post #16 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 02:18 PM
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lets all be REAL here

Blu-ray will use the best codec for the format but can use it at a higher bitrate

HD-dvd needs a higher compression format and they know this beacsue there space is smaller.

both will look great but blu-ray has the upper side on longer movies and better sound beascue they can fit it on the disc.

Blu-ray will use there space to make the best quality possible.

HD-dvd will have to compress to fit everything on

Geese I think we already know this.

Blu-ray will give everyone what they need
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post #17 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by space2001
Blu-ray will give everyone what they need
Blu-ray will, but the blasted studios won't!!!

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post #18 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 02:42 PM
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well they teh studios will get screwed if they don't listen to Consumers, and especially us early adopters
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post #19 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 06:49 PM
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Is this announcement less than it seems? I know that WMV9/VC-1 is mandatory - along with MPEG2 and MPEG4 - for playback devices. However, I was reading the article on HD-DVD in the current March/April 2005 issue of Perfect Vision. I don't have it with me right now but I am pretty sure that it said that MPEG4 is THE mandatory encoding codec for all HD-DVD titles, although companies will be free to add MPEG2 or VC-1 versions on the discs. All HD-DVD will, at minimum, be MPEG4, though some may also be in MPEG2 or VC-1 (analogous to how in the DVD spec, Dolby Digital is the baseline mandate but you're free to also include DTS).

Can anyone with the issue confirm the article says this? And if it does, is it true? If so, all that today's press release from Warners and Microsoft says is that some HD-DVD titles will be released in dual MPEG4 and VC-1 versions. In other words, no big deal.

The February 23, 2005 meeting of the DVD Forum Steering Committee lists the approval of "Adoption of High profile for MPEG4 AVC as a mandatory profile for HD DVD-Video" (see http://www.dvdforum.org/29scmtg-resolution.htm). Note that this language is different from the February 25/26, 2004 meeting summary that provisionally approved "MPEG2, WM9 (VC-9) and MPEG4 AVC(H.264) Video CODECs as mandatory for the HD DVD Video specification for playback devices" (http://www.dvdforum.org/25scmtg-resolution.htm). Note the former makes no mention of playback devices, which leads me to believe that the action taken on February 23, 2005 mandated MPEG4 as the baseline encoding codec, which is what the writer in Perfect Vision said.

Anyone confirm or refute?
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post #20 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 06:56 PM
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Peter, your understanding is not correct. Both BD and DVD Forum have mandated what codecs the player must have. But neither have said anything about what content owners must do. Indeed, since all three codecs are guaranteed to be on the player, there is no reason to have a mandate for the encoding side. It would serve no purpose.

The DTS/Dolby situation existed because DTS was optional for current DVD format. This is not the same situation as the new HD formats.

The Warner announcement is significant that given a choice, Warner adopted VC-1.

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post #21 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 06:57 PM
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And just to clarify, there is no mandate whatsoever to use MPEG-4/AVC on either HD format.

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post #22 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Peter, your understanding is not correct. Both BD and DVD Forum have mandated what codecs the player must have. But neither have said anything about what content owners must do. Indeed, since all three codecs are guaranteed to be on the player, there is no reason to have a mandate for the encoding side. It would serve no purpose.
not only that, but forcing one codec would not make sense because no one will use a second codec, it would only take up much more space and no advantage, so making the two other codecs mandatory for players would have just been a waste of cost
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post #23 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 07:53 PM
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The Warner announcement is significant that given a choice, Warner adopted VC-1.
let's be honest, there are many reasons different companies pick different formats and (be it disk, codec....) like you said before the big news is that WB will get help from professionals at MS that know the codec well
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post #24 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 08:39 PM
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From PR perspective, the announcement is merely Warner saying they are not backing off from backing HD-DVD.

In the past two weeks, all we've heard is Sony executives are trying to get people back to the negotiation table.

It is really not necessary for Warner to say they're going to use MS codec. What's necessary was saying they are going to consult with MS in maximizing the potential of the codec. It leads to perceived advantage that by consulting with MS, HD-DVD will not go wrong.

It could also be perceived by BD supporters as saying, "We know that HD-DVD doesn't have a lot of space and that's why we're working with MS so that we don't fcuk up."


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post #25 of 69 Old 04-18-2005, 09:09 PM
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lol
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post #26 of 69 Old 04-19-2005, 05:26 AM
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Again the argument of BlueRay vs. HD-DVD pollutes the thread.
We have a few other threads here where the supporters of BluRay can bash HD-DVD, but this is about the codec Warner chose and I think it is a good decision.

Amir,
you chose your words very carefully, but do you really think that with "normal" movie material it would be possible to differentiate between 15 and 22 mbps when the transfer is carefully done with variable bitrate ?

And if this would be possible where would you see the difference and for how long given a movie that lasts 2 hours ?
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post #27 of 69 Old 04-19-2005, 06:20 AM
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We have a few other threads here where the supporters of BluRay can bash HD-DVD, but this is about the codec Warner chose and I think it is a good decision.
yes and the point is that @the highest bit rate the encoder can handle there is not enough place on one disk for most movies. Now if that pisses you off that we demonstrate it then it is not our problem.

Amir might say

Quote:
Of course, you could always pick "pathological" cases where higher bit rates would be necessary.
but don't you think it is a "pathological" case to compare BR with MPEG2 compared to HD-DVD with VC-1 just to say BR is not better

or

Quote:
I assume everyone wants to have the best picture quality and anything that takes a step in that direction should be a good thing
yes anything that takes a step in that direction is a good thig, but step sizes are also important. If one ting takes bigger steps it is better
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post #28 of 69 Old 04-19-2005, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyP
yes and the point is that @the highest bit rate the encoder can handle there is not enough place on one disk for most movies. Now if that pisses you off that we demonstrate it then it is not our problem.
I know that BlueRay supports higher data rates for a given feature length, how could it be different with the higher capacity it has ?
Gee, thanks you pointed it out again in this thread, as if everybody here didn't already know...

It is just that enough is enough. It is not really difficult to understand that you can achieve a higher data rate for a given feature length or more content for a given bit rate with a higher capacity media, so why post it in a thread that is about the codec that Warner puts on HD-DVD ? They have already decided on HD-DVD and now it is nice to hear that they indeed use the VC-1 codec, that's what the thread is about, not HD-DVD vs. BlueRay part 765.

And no, I am not pissed, I am only a little tired to wade through the BlueRay vs. HD-DVD arguments in almost every thread on this board to get to other informations that might be new or interesting to me :)
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post #29 of 69 Old 04-19-2005, 06:47 AM
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you might have read it before, but it does not mean that everyone that reads this thread has done it. In this thread somone said HD-DVD can handle VC-1@22 just because it is a setting on the encoder. I just showed that he was wrong. If the thread is on TW using 10mbps or 8 mbps don't talk about them being able to use more, the codecs are not the limiting factor. You might know it, I might know it but not every one that ight read this thread must know it
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post #30 of 69 Old 04-19-2005, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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well I am also glad Warner opted for the VC-1 codec.... same with Warner opting for most or all of their DVDs to have only dolby digital coz DTS uses up bandwidth from the video... a whole other story .. but same trend... in that Warner choose a better codec. Just imagine if Warner opted for the old mpeg2 on HD-DVD...

ehhhhh.... what if Sony opted for the old mpeg2 codec, then whats the whole point of having a bigger capacity.... I hope they wont :-)
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