Toshiba's Secret Strategy to get HD-DVD to win... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-24-2005, 10:26 AM
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Old 06-24-2005, 11:41 AM
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I don't think either of the formats have to be a huge seller right off the bat in order to survive. Look at SACD/DVD-A disks. Both of those formats are still producing a fair number of new recordings, even though sales are poor. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be much much bigger than hi-rez audiophile disks, because everybody loves movies and will be able to see a clear difference, especially on newer TV's, whereas very few poeple have an audio setup where the advantages of hi-rez are obvious.

When it comes to supporting BR or HD-DVD, all that will matter to a studio is whether it can make a profit by selling that format. Before long, the cost of producing disks in both formats will be low enough, I suspect, that as long as there's even a small installed base in each format, the studio will produce versions in both.

So my conclusion is that both will survive for quite a while - probably until the next big format is developed - maybe 3840 x 2160 - at which point there will be much less of a visible difference for home systems than now between standard and hi-def DVD. That will be a harder sell unless there's some advantage other than resolution.
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Old 06-27-2005, 09:50 PM
 
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LOTR trilology will be on HD DVD not BR...end of discussion.
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Julie
LOTR trilology will be on HD DVD not BR...end of discussion.
Ha. I wouldn't count on it. LOTR was not listed as part of the HD-DVD release titles. And when Blu-Ray wins the format war, all of those HD-DVD titles will need to be re-released on Blu-Ray in order to actually make money. :D Perhaps Time Warner is waiting to see who the true format winner is before releasing such a huge title in a format that could possibly lose.

Anyway, if LOTR Extended Edition was released on HD-DVD, it would be a real shame. Blu-Ray would be the only thing that would do LOTR justice.

Personally, I still think a universal player will be released and the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray "format war" will officially end.

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Old 06-28-2005, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by trailergod
Toshiba will make the HD DVD drives for the Xbox 360... yes Xbox will indeed have an HD DVD drive...
Link please...

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Old 06-28-2005, 07:19 AM
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How did my post end up BEFORE your post? I was replying to yours. LOL

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Old 06-28-2005, 07:20 AM
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just in....

Toshiba will make the HD DVD drives for the Xbox 360... yes Xbox will indeed have an HD DVD drive... and also MS and Toshiba will dev a player for the HD dvd format
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Old 06-28-2005, 07:44 AM
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agree with ckenisell's psychic abilities. Considering every statement made by anyone at MS and any PR that came out of MS has been adamant that the 360 will only have a DVD drive and no chance it will come with an HD-DVD drive you need an extremely credible link to make your post even 1/2 serious.
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckenisell
Ha. I wouldn't count on it. LOTR was not listed as part of the HD-DVD release titles. And when Blu-Ray wins the format war, all of those HD-DVD titles will need to be re-released on Blu-Ray in order to actually make money. :D Perhaps Time Warner is waiting to see who the true format winner is before releasing such a huge title in a format that could possibly lose.
There are thousands of other titles that were not mention too, but that doesn't mean much does it? TW will release LOTR on HD DVD in the near future, you can bet on it. They know that triology ALONE will force people to buy HD DVD players.


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Originally Posted by trailergod
just in....

Toshiba will make the HD DVD drives for the Xbox 360... yes Xbox will indeed have an HD DVD drive... and also MS and Toshiba will dev a player for the HD dvd format

“The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today's DVD format,†Gates confirmed. “We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD DVD player or something else.â€
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Old 06-29-2005, 09:24 AM
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Toshiba will make the HD DVD drives for the Xbox 360... yes Xbox will indeed have an HD DVD drive...
Well someone already pointed this out but you're wrong. The initial "version" will not have an hd-dvd drive, but future versions "might" have one. I think this may only lead some people to waiting on purchasing an xbox360. I probably will wait now.

It's really a shame, because if Toshiba and Microsoft could have gotten things sorted out earlier, HD-DVD would have had a huge install base very early on in xbox360's, and ultimately could have lead to hd-dvd winning the format war. I personally am happy that 360's don't have an hd-dvd since I think the format is subpar to begin with. Will initial hd-dvd movies be dual layer or single layer only?

I thought I read somewhere that initial hd-dvd movies would only be single layer...? Can anyone confirm this? Because like other people said.. expect LOTR extended to suck ROYALLY, compared to blue-ray, on hd-dvd if only a single layer disc is used. Otherwise there will be two discs like the dvd version. Since mpeg4 codecs look to be the standard for new formats, this will save considerable space, but still not be enough for single layer hd-dvds. Why buy LOTR in 720p when Blue-ray will eventually be able to release it in 1080p? I like blue-ray because it offers plenty of storage to allow for optimal PQ/sound. HD-DVD is a small step in the HD direction where as Blue-ray looks to be the standard for many years to come. 1080p sets will be fairly common in 5 years, and people will be stuck w/ 1080i/720p if HD-dvd wins... :mad:
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Old 06-29-2005, 11:36 AM
 
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What makes you think HD DVD cannot support 1080p?
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Old 06-29-2005, 11:58 AM
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What makes you think HD DVD cannot support 1080p?
Well, there was a thread a little while back saying hd-dvd wouldn't support 1080p, only 1080i. Whether this is completely true or not is of course debatable since nothing is finalized, but the consensus was that hd-dvd would not support 1080p.

Also, I was referring to single layer hd-dvd's being the first ones available. I thought I read somewhere that hd-dvds would debut being single layer only. IF this is true, w/ only 15gigs of space, 1080p is out of the question. They might be able to get it to fit, but it would most definetly use heavy compression and look like crap. This will restrict movies to 720p, and why would anyone buy 720p if 1080p is around the corner? You'd have to re-buy the movie later on to support your nice new 1080p set. That's my point. Blue-ray WILL have the storage capacity from the get-go w/ 30 gigs, so 1080p is at least a possibility right from the start.
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Old 06-29-2005, 12:53 PM
 
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It's already been said that HD DVD content will be stored as 1080p on the disc.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:05 PM
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It's already been said that HD DVD content will be stored as 1080p on the disc.
You have a link to somewhere that says that? From what I've heard it won't support 1080i. Also, do you have any info whether hd-dvd will launch w/ dual layer discs or single? IF it does record movies at 1080p AND dual layer discs come out initially, i would say hd-dvd has a fighting chance. It seems to be pretty clear that blue-ray will support 1080p initially, especially seeing as how their games are looking to support 1080p.
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Old 06-29-2005, 03:19 PM
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Mikeoz, I believe Amir of MS or Keith of Sigma Designs stated this in the long HD DVD news thread. the discs will be 1080P, but the players may only output 1080i

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Old 06-29-2005, 09:54 PM
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You have a link to somewhere that says that? From what I've heard it won't support 1080i
I think it's up to YOU to support valid links proving that HD-DVD only supports 1080i. Amir and Keith Jack have said this is likely untrue. The orgin seems to have come from some random site from a guy obviously not using any info directly from the DVD Forum. Blu-Ray fans have jumped over this despite no empirical evidence.

I will say as I've always said. Within the context of movie distribution I find both formats to be fine. There's no way I want a 200GB 4 layer disc with only a .1mm protection layer seperating my data from possible destruction. That's just not good data protection.

What I'm more keen on knowing is how HD-DVD authoring environment matches up to Blu-Ray. The Java stuff sounds nice but I watch movies for movies not twiddlling with the menus.

I'm hoping Samsung makes good on their idea to possibly persue a universal player. It sucks but choice isn't a bad thing.
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeoz
You have a link to somewhere that says that?
I think others have already answered this but here is a link for you. As you see there, we are actually encoding the movies for Warner and I can assure you that they are in 1080p.

Note that players from both camps may only spit out 1080i regardless of what is stored on the discs. PCs would put out 1080p though, as will high-end DVD players.

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Old 06-30-2005, 11:54 AM
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Ok, thank you for the clarification. I was wrong.. If movies will be stored in 1080p, I would assume then that all/most hd-dvds will be dual layer discs then, right? 15gigs wouldn't be enough space for 1080p. Also, why would dvd players only output 1080i as opposed to 1080p? Is there a bandwidth limitation over hdmi?

Either way, at least if the movies are encoded on 1080p, this leaves the possibility of future players outputting 1080p. Thanks.
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikeoz
Ok, thank you for the clarification. I was wrong.. If movies will be stored in 1080p, I would assume then that all/most hd-dvds will be dual layer discs then, right? 15gigs wouldn't be enough space for 1080p.
Since the source material is 24fps, 1080p/24sf takes generally less place to store than 1080i/60, because 1080i/60 repeats some fields to go from 24 to 60.

At best, if telecine flags are used to avoid needless repetitions, 1080i/60 will take the same space as 1080p/24sf. So, space is not a concern for film based 1080p. In fact, it's the other way around.

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Old 06-30-2005, 01:08 PM
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It wouldn't be a limitation of HDMI per se, just an oversight by the equipment manufacturer. Right now most DVD players that are upconverting could output 1080P if they wanted to but they still don't. This would be a similar circumstance.

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Old 06-30-2005, 03:01 PM
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Since the source material is 24fps, 1080p/24sf takes generally less place to store than 1080i/60
Ok, the bandwidth requirements make sense.. but aren't dvds(480i) ~30fps? Is 1080i/60fps a standard?? That just seems strange that they would increase the framerate 2x unless it was to compensate for the interlaced picture. But.. current dvds are 480i at ~30fps and they seem to be fine. Why would there be 1080i/60? If 1080p/24 is going to be the source on the disc, then i would think 1080i/24 would be the output for 1080i sets.

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It wouldn't be a limitation of HDMI per se, just an oversight by the equipment manufacturer. Right now most DVD players that are upconverting could output 1080P if they wanted to but they still don't. This would be a similar circumstance.
Sorry but you didn't address my question..? Why would an hd player not output 1080p? New hardware will be released so I don't see how old dvd hardware has much relevance to hd hardware.
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Old 06-30-2005, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeoz
Ok, the bandwidth requirements make sense.. but aren't dvds(480i) ~30fps?
DVDs are 480i/60. That means 60 fields ps, one field being half a frame.

Same for 1080i/60.

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Old 07-01-2005, 08:59 AM
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I thought I read somewhere that initial hd-dvd movies would only be single layer...? Can anyone confirm this?
never read that anywhere, I guess there is a chance of it SL is cheaper then DL but who knows. Don't forget that a 15GB compared to 25GB is a real big difference and if HD-DVD wants a good impression it better go out with DL

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Because like other people said.. expect LOTR extended to suck ROYALLY, compared to blue-ray, on hd-dvd if only a single layer disc is used.
I don't think a DL disk would be enough for a "good" version

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Otherwise there will be two discs like the dvd version.
I think you would need two even with DL, which is why I think it was not on the original list

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Since mpeg4 codecs look to be the standard for new formats,
no, it does not look that way, also you missed the PR from TW that said they will use MSs VC1 and not MPEG4 and MS is helping them with the transferring.

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this will save considerable space, but still not be enough for single layer hd-dvds.
it is not only a matter of codec but more so a matter of bitrate. the only difference is that whatever bit rate you pick the MPEG2 version will look worst

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Why buy LOTR in 720p when Blue-ray will eventually be able to release it in 1080p?
I don't think anyone has talked about 720p. I think all HD movies on BR or HD-DVD will be 1080p, the only difference, if there, that affect quality is the compressed bitrate or if it will be on more disks.

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I like blue-ray because it offers plenty of storage to allow for optimal PQ/sound. HD-DVD is a small step in the HD direction where as Blue-ray looks to be the standard for many years to come.
agree

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1080p sets will be fairly common in 5 years, and people will be stuck w/ 1080i/720p if HD-dvd wins...
I think you are mistaking the announcement that Toshiba said that they won't support 1080p output on their first player to it being a limit of HD-DVD. Most here think all movies will be in 1080p24 on disks, while most players will allow for lesser outputs
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Old 07-01-2005, 09:19 AM
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Blu-Ray fans have jumped over this despite no empirical evidence.
who jumped on it, I read all the threads on this forum and don't see anyone jumping on it.

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I will say as I've always said. Within the context of movie distribution I find both formats to be fine. There's no way I want a 200GB 4 layer disc with only a .1mm protection layer seperating my data from possible destruction. That's just not good data protection.
why is the .1 so important to you? Alex himself said in an other thread that BR should be more scratch resistant. Also in the end where the data is located is not all that important because even if the data is safe the laser still needs to go through the damaged part and it will mess up the beam. So yes there is a bit more natural protection from it being deeper, but look at it a different way, the data is closer to the back of the disk then the front, if it is so, why are scratches on the front more dangerous then the back? because the laser gets diffracted if the scratch is on the front, simple as that.

I agree 200GB might not be needed for movies, but it would be cool for recording, and it would be cool for series, imagine a full series in HD on one disk and not that crap that Toshiba is talking about when they say a 45GB HD-DVD can hold 13h
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Old 07-01-2005, 09:24 AM
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Why would an hd player not output 1080p?
because right now there are not more then a handful (if that) of display devices that can input 1080p. Evenb devices that can display 1080p don't tend to have an input for it
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