Which HD-DVD titles would you buy? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Assuming that you purchased an HD-DVD player which titles would you purchase initially?

Here are the 89 Titles

For me it'd have to be

Universal Home-

Pitch Black
12 Monkeys
Chronicles of Riddick
Apollo 13

Warner-

Batman Begins
Contact
Dark City
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
The Last Samurai
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Se7en


Paramount
-

Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow
Sleepy Hollow
Star Trek: First Contact
Braveheart

I'm getting pretty excited about the pending launch of HD for the home. I want to see the BD lineup asap as well.
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post #2 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 07:50 AM
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THE THING
BACKDRAFT

NORTH BY NORTHWEST
PHANTOM OF THE OPERA (this way I can justify the cost to the wife!)
UNDER SIEGE

GREASE
BLACK RAIN
WE WERE SOLDIERS

Actually, this is a better lineup at launch than DVD...where I had a choice between ERASER or MORTAL KOMBAT where I picked up my first player! :rolleyes:

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post #3 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 08:17 AM
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Most likely none. It doesn't make much sense to buy a $1000 paperweight. I plan on waiting to buy these on BD:

Van Helsing
U-571
The Thing
Waterworld
The Bone Collector
Dante's Peak

Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery
Blade
Constantine
Dark City
Final Destination
Friday
The Mask
Rush Hour
Se7en

Italian Job
Sleepy Hollow
Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
We Were Soldiers
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post #4 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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It'll be interesting to see if any studios break rank and deliver movies in both formats.

I don't really happen to be a much of a fan of either format. They both are simply a mens to an end. Give me great quality and reliability and usability and I'll be happy. Both formats should be able to do that fine.

I'm definitely going to need a lot of Columbia titles particulary my Asian films and some Disney as well.
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post #5 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Most likely none. It doesn't make much sense to buy a $1000 paperweight. I plan on waiting to buy these on BD:
Gonna be a LLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG wait.

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post #6 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:15 AM
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my guess a real short wait for everything except possibly TW
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post #7 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:16 AM
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The Bourne Supremacy
The Chronicles of Riddick
U-571
The Thing
Pitch Black
Batman Begins
Blade (New Line)
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Constantine
Contact
Dark City (New Line)
Friday (New Line)
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
North by Northwest
The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
The Polar Express
Se7en (New Line)
Troy
Elizabethtown
Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow
Braveheart
Mission Impossible 2
Sleepy Hollow
We Were Soldiers

That should hold me over for awhile. I could care less if there are two formats personally. I've been enjoying D-Theater for awhile now and I will enjoy these formats until one goes away.

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post #8 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
my guess a real short wait for everything except possibly TW
Bad guess, studios have already said they aren't going to support a format war. That is probably the only thing that has been clearly spelled out in this big fiasco. And it is going to take a while before we see a clear victor in this battle. Pre-Recorded HD is a niche format regardless and it will probably take longer than SD DVD took for mass consumer adoption. And that took 3-4 years. I think the only way we'll see a cross over is if Toshiba or Sony just back out completely or one of the formats just dies. And I don't see that happening anytime soon either.

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post #9 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:24 AM
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PS Kris, do you think when just the PS3 will have hit 1M and at the same time HD-DVD has only hit 100-200k devices (if lucky) that the studios wont do the math and see $$ in their eyes and support BR? the only one that might keep up appearance will be TW because it is the only one with something to lose. By the end of 2006 I think all studios minus TW will have BR versions of the movies. As an example look at UMD, when the PSP came out only Sony made UMD movies, how long has it been out? all studios except TW now produce UMD version of movies.
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post #10 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:28 AM
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well they are already supporting a war because 100% of the studios are not on one side. If studios see a 10-1 in the players distribution in BRs favour are they supporting the war by not making BR movies or by making them and pushing it in one direction (i.e. if you can buy all movies in one format why would anyone buy an other one?)
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post #11 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
PS Kris, do you think when just the PS3 will have hit 1M and at the same time HD-DVD has only hit 100-200k devices (if lucky) that the studios wont do the math and see $$ in their eyes and support BR? the only one that might keep up appearance will be TW because it is the only one with something to lose. By the end of 2006 I think all studios minus TW will have BR versions of the movies. As an example look at UMD, when the PSP came out only Sony made UMD movies, how long has it been out? all studios except TW now produce UMD version of movies.

1 Million PS3 does not equal 1 Million HDTV sets with HDMI. UMB is a proprietary platform and isn't comparable to the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle at all.

I'd bet money that you don't see everyone but TW with BD movies. The PS3 is only going to ship mid 2006 and it'll probably be constrained for at least a qtr as all new consoles are. I don't think you have much clarity in this theory.
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post #12 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 09:51 AM
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Universal Home Entertainment titles:
The Bourne Supremacy
Apollo 13

Warner Home Video titles:
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Contact
From the Earth to the Moon (HBO)
The Fugitive
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
The Polar Express
The Sopranos (HBO)

Paramount Home Entertainment titles:
Italian Job
Forrest Gump
Braveheart
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post #13 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 11:30 AM
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PS Kris, do you think when just the PS3 will have hit 1M and at the same time HD-DVD has only hit 100-200k devices (if lucky) that the studios wont do the math and see $$ in their eyes and support BR?
Sorry but the studios aren't going to use PS3 hardware sales as their gauge. They are going to use sales of BDR pre-recorded movies. UMD is the worst example you can possibly use as it is the only handheld device with movie playback capability on the market. It would be another story altogether if Nintendo's DS had the support of a few studios and they all left to go there. That is a market with no format war and no competitors. Pretty no brainer.

The studios said they would not support multiple formats. That is what I meant by a format war. The only way they are going to switch at this point is if one of the formats pulls themselves out or dies, which is going to be a long time from now.

I think this delusion that PS3 is going to be the be all end all of this format war is wishful thinking at best. Next thing I'm going to hear is DVD-A is through because it supports SACD. Right. They are both niche markets and it is going to take more then a game machine to end it.

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post #14 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 11:33 AM
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If studios see a 10-1 in the players distribution in BRs favour are they supporting the war by not making BR movies or by making them and pushing it in one direction (i.e. if you can buy all movies in one format why would anyone buy an other one?)
Exactly. So if HD-DVD is on the market for 5-6 months before BluRay even arrives and people are buying those, why the hell would they be interested in some other format??? It works both ways friend.

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post #15 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 11:47 AM
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So, this has gone from "what would you buy" to another HD-DVD vs Blu Ray debate?! *YAWN*

Blu Ray... 3-D TV... 4K... I Like New STUFF!!!

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post #16 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm_B
So, this has gone from "what would you buy" to another HD-DVD vs Blu Ray debate?! *YAWN*

I grow weary as well...I "know" i'll need both formats. I can't wait until we know what the initial catalog for Blu-Ray will be.

Hopefully they'll have

House of Flying Daggers
Hero
CTHD
Leon: The Professional
Spidey (of course)
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post #17 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 01:50 PM
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Which player will have Lord of the Rings? Then I'll buy it.

Of course I will have to wait until I purchase a new TV as well. Either that or they allow HD over component... :rolleyes:

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post #18 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 06:31 PM
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I only want to support Blu-Ray but I have a feeling I'll buy into Hd-dvd just for Batman Begins. I also broke for D-theater just for I-Robot!
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post #19 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering
Gonna be a LLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG wait.
I've waited three years already what's a couple more? ;) Some of the members here think it's impossible to live without certain movies. That's certainly not the case with me. I will happily buy all of the Sony, MGM, and Disney BDs I want when they are released. I won't shed a tear if I have to wait a couple of years for the other studios to get on board so that I can own their movies on BD. But I agree with Anthony, Warner will be the last holdout and they won't resist the cashflow that BD becomes for long. HD-DVD will fall flat on its face soon after the PS3 comes out. Never disgard the coolness factor. HDTV has it, PS3 will have it. It's not that much of a stretch to predict that BD will have it as well. Teenagers and college students like to own what's hot.
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post #20 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering
Bad guess, studios have already said they aren't going to support a format war.
Anthony already addressed this but I just really wanted to also point out that you're flat out exactly 'wrong'.

They picked 'sides' knowing other studios picked the 'other side'. That's exactly what supporting a format war is!

And in fact for them to do what you say they are doing and 'not support' a format war... ~half of them need to now flip to the 'other format' and make a clear majority supporting only one.

I think Anthony is thinking that'll happen and not take so long.

I know I'm saying that I think it could very well happen like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering
That is probably the only thing that has been clearly spelled out in this big fiasco. And it is going to take a while before we see a clear victor in this battle.
You don't know that.

I'll make a note that you like to spout guesses as facts for future reference to your credibility.
It also reflects on Secrect of Home Theater's credibilty since you note your connection to that site in all your posts.

Also.. uh... you wrote that already. You wrote that 'it'll be a loooooong time', and then Anthony wrote that he thinks it won't be.

BUT... then you decide you need to repeat (as if fact) that it will be a long time yet again??

Like saying more times makes it more true? It wasn't true in 3rd grade and it's true here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering
Pre-Recorded HD is a niche format regardless and it will probably take longer than SD DVD took for mass consumer adoption. And that took 3-4 years. I think the only way we'll see a cross over is if Toshiba or Sony just back out completely or one of the formats just dies. And I don't see that happening anytime soon either.
At least that sounds like you don't think you can see the future.

BTW... how does one format 'just die'?? I wasn't aware that such a thing could happen.

The way I see it... 'movies on disc' was something new for people to get used to with DVD's. If anything they knew Laserdics had been out and cost a lot and were goofy.

Now people know and love DVD so the HD version of that (either format) is easy for them to understand and want.

salesdork -"It's like DVD but high resolution like all these HiDef sets you see here."
Even daft old ladies will understand that.

Also I thought early DVD players were a lot higher cost than early HD format players are expected to be right?

Didn't DVD players start more in the >$2K range and HDF players are looking to start in the <$1K range? ~$400 or less for the PS3 based on lots of strong info.

That should effect adoption I'd think.

Also... the 'HD' element of these HD formats has been promoted for years now with HD sets. People have been seeing HD content and want it.

DVD was always an in-between format. Not standard def/analog, but not hi def/digital either.

HD discs (either format) will max out HD sets.
It's finally a matching maxed out format to HD displays.

People will be made aware of that and again... think that'll help adoption vs. DVD too.

DVD never had that selling point and was VERY popular anyway. Hell... most of us bought HD sets largely to max out DVD's as best we could.

So add that all up and I think it's a strong showing that HD disc players might not be the tiny market you think they'll be and could possibly beat DVD's adoption rate.

All it'd take IMO is a couple studios flipping to the format they didn't originally pick and the remaining will fall like dominos.

That 'could' happen fast or slow.

People buying new HDTV's will certainly want to tack on a new HD disc player if it's not 'too much' extra.
Could easily match or beat DVD's progress in the early years I think.
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post #21 of 98 Old 07-13-2005, 06:56 PM
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And just for whiners crying 'off-topic'...

I don't plan on buying any movies in either format till the war is over. I mostly rent anyway and I think it's VERY underplayed how a stand (so far not taken AFAIK) by B'Buster or Netflix could tilt the format war too.

I mean what would happen if these two companies came out and said they both have decided to only support HD-DVD? Or only Blu-Ray?

That would be HUGE IMO.
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post #22 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
1 Million PS3 does not equal 1 Million HDTV sets with HDMI. UMB is a proprietary platform and isn't comparable to the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle at all.
Quote:
Sorry but the studios aren't going to use PS3 hardware sales as their gauge. They are going to use sales of BDR pre-recorded movies. UMD is the worst example you can possibly use as it is the only handheld device with movie playback capability on the market. It would be another story altogether if Nintendo's DS had the support of a few studios and they all left to go there. That is a market with no format war and no competitors. Pretty no brainer.
Guys, I never said that it will only be because of the PS3, I agree that movie sales will be the final gauge, but I think it is naïve to think that if one format has 10x or more the number of players out there that it will not affect movie sales and won’t affect anything else. Lets say there are 200k HD-DVD player, 100k BR players and 1M PS3. you don’t think that the many more BR devices will also translate to many more BR movies bought? You don’t think the guy that bought the PS3 will say “lets buy/rent a BR movie and see what this hype is all about†you don’t think the store/rental place that has movies and PS3 games won’t think I have a large PS3 market, maybe I can see and ad some BR movies in the PS3 section to see if it takes off? You don’t think studios will notice this if it happens?

That is where UMD comes in as an example, no it is not the only portable standard, DVD has been portable for ages, TW came out with mini DVD. When the PSP came out everyone laughed that it can play movies and only Sony came out with a handful. What happened? In the few months it has been out many PSPs were sold and a few people decided to buy movies, the point is that enough movies were sold that the studios took interest and all except TW decided to make UMD movies, why not TW because they have massive interests in the competing (if you want to call it that) format mini-DVD. And even though mini-DVDs work in a DVD player (to all those that think hybrid disks are the answer) no one is buying them. And let’s face it UMD is a limited scope format, it only plays on PSP, you get rid of it and your UMD collection is useless.

The point is if studios think there is a market they will jump to it, if they don’t think there is one they will leave. They are there to make money and except for TW and Sony that have interests in the tech the rest make their money in disk sales and if by doing both formats they can double their sales or more) they will do it.

Quote:
The studios said they would not support multiple formats

where did they say that? They said three things

1) they don’t want multiple formats
2) they don’t want a war
3) none of their support is exclusive

that is a far cry from saying they will support one format, what they want is not to have the choice and not to need to make two copies (one on BR and one on HD-DVD) all until now and until there is one format is manoeuvring to do that. I think there is a possibility that BR studios will also make HD-DVD movies. But let’s face it form a number of potential sales out there I think getting HD-DVD studios to add BR to their portfolio is easier
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post #23 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 09:00 AM
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Which player will have Lord of the Rings? Then I'll buy it.
should be TW->HD-DVD, but not on their list
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post #24 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 09:07 AM
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I don't plan on buying any movies in either format till the war is over. I mostly rent anyway and I think it's VERY underplayed how a stand (so far not taken AFAIK) by B'Buster or Netflix could tilt the format war too.
agree, but the question would be why would they take a stand. I think their biggest role will be do they support 2G or not. If they do, unless paid by one side or the other, I don't see rental places playing a big roll in the winning format, they will offer what is available and what their customers have at home

PS the same goes for stores as well, Wall-mart, costco.... can also play major roles
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post #25 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 09:20 AM
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You don't know that.

I'll make a note that you like to spout guesses as facts for future reference to your credibility.
It also reflects on Secrect of Home Theater's credibilty since you note your connection to that site in all your posts.

I think he is just missinterpretting what studios have said. The simple truth is every format costs money, you need to create a remastering, you need different menues, different distribution, fighting for shelf space. But the same way that there are three formats now (VHS, DVD and UMD) and that studios could say we stop VHS because costs too much to replicate and we get less revenue from each tape so we cut it and UMD is niche so we cut that as well and just have DVD but don't. Soon there will be 5 formats they support if they don't have a choice (i.e. enough readers out there to make it cost effective). Obviously if there was only one format it would be three times as good and that is what they want.
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post #26 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 09:31 AM
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There are a lot of titles I wouldn't mind having, but in terms of what I'd excitedly fork over my credit card to buy out of the gate:

UNIVERSAL
The Thing
Pitch Black

WARNER FAMILY
Batman Begins
Dark City
House of Wax
North by Northwest
Se7en
The Sopranos

I'm sure if it came down to it, I'd wind up grabbing two or three times as many titles as I rattled off above; Dune and Conan... are a couple of movies I'd probably buy, but they aren't quite at that same level of interest. I feel kind of guilty for listing House of Wax, but I'm unapologetically a sucker for dumb slashers.
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post #27 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 02:43 PM
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Anthony,

“-agree, but the question would be why would they take a stand.-“

Why? I’d figure you’d already know that. ‘Cuz they don’t want to buy two of everything and see half of it become worthless. And taking up valuable store space.

I thought that was exactly the gist of why that big wig from B.Buy publicly flipped out over the idea of a format war and flat out said he did NOT want it (don’t have the CES quote handy but I’m sure you’ve read it anyway).

First... what ‘exactly’ does ‘2G’ mean? HD discs? HD rez anything?
You use this term a lot but I’ve never seen anyone else ever use it so I have to ask if you can specifically define it for me. Thanks.

“-I think their biggest role will be do they support 2G or not.-“

Could be I suppose. Or 'could' be like I was thinking... to support one format and end the war they don't want themselves. You know... like what the U.N. is suppose to do! heh

I figure the retail stores will feel a lot more pressure to have the stuff for sale on the day HD-DVD and then Blu-Ray comes out, but (like w/ DVD’s) rental places ‘could’ just hold off and not get either till the ‘war’ is over and probably be just fine.

But these companies (like the studios) don’t want the ‘other guy’ to get the jump on them by backing the winning format early on.

It might not be in B’Buster’s best interest to see N’Flix offically back Blu-Ray while they 'were' waiting things out. Or vice versa.

“-If they do, unless paid by one side or the other, I don't see rental places playing a big roll in the winning format, they will offer what is available and what their customers have at home.-“

Sure having one side pay them off I suppose could happen, but even if they don’t... they ‘could’ have a HUGE effect on the war if they decided to all get together and back one or the other.
Those rental places (at least used to) rent video game systems and DVD players so people could try a whole format that they didn't own at all.

Which with the PS3 could be a double reason to back Blu-Ray.

Don’t you think that could possibly work -even if you think it’ll never happen?

But why do you think these companies will just offer whatever from both formats?

You think they don’t care either way? Wasted shelf space and eventual worthless inventory from the losing format can’t be ignored can it?

I mean then you added -“PS the same goes for stores as well, Wall-mart, costco.... can also play major roles-“

I know. Retail and rental (I made a sepp thread about that too).

So you agree they ‘can’ if they wanted to play major roles. AFAIK... so far they have mostly been silent. Odd when they 'could' weild some BIG guns on this -and think it 'is' important to 'em.
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post #28 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 02:56 PM
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I'll make a note that you like to spout guesses as facts for future reference to your credibility.
It also reflects on Secrect of Home Theater's credibilty since you note your connection to that site in all your posts.
Make a note, write it down, put it on your bulletin. I don't really care. Everyone in all the threads about this stuff are making guesses and assumptions. How am I any different? Maybe the fact that I am a video editor for an editorial and maybe the fact that I have acess to the studios DIRECTLY or maybe the fact that I have friends that work in the industry that are directly involved with this stuff.

You're right, I am probably just pulling it all out of my ass.

Kind of like the price you put on the first DVD player every made when comparing it to the new formats. Toshiba released the first DVD player on the market and I owned it. It cost quite a bit less then $1000.

The only facts we're going to get out of this forum are direct quotes from press releases made by the companies themselves. Everything else is speculation.

Quote:
They picked 'sides' knowing other studios picked the 'other side'. That's exactly what supporting a format war is!
Another one of your pulling it out of the old butt. The studios announced support for HD-DVD before anyone announced support of BDR. In fact, the only studio NOT owned by Sony that has announced support for BDR is Buena Vista. So THEY decided to support a war, not the other way around. Sony could have helped end this format war by presenting the Blu-Ray format to the DVD Forum for adoption as the next generation DVD format, they chose not to. The Forum chose HD-DVD (and the DVD Forum is comprised of a good majority of the members of the BDR consortium and they remain part of the DVD Forum) as the next format instead.

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post #29 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 04:24 PM
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Kris Deering,

"-I don't really care.-"

Then you shouldn't bother to reply, but that'd just make you look worse.

"-Everyone in all the threads about this stuff are making guesses and assumptions. How am I any different?-"

I SAID how.... 'cuz what you were guessing was stated as fact. And then you even repeated it like that makes it 'more true'. Very silly.

"-Maybe the fact that I am a video editor for an editorial and maybe the fact that I have acess to the studios DIRECTLY or maybe the fact that I have friends that work in the industry that are directly involved with this stuff.-"

If you have anything specific that's a fact that comes from your super special inside sources then you should state them when you pretent that your guesses are facts.

I doubt anyone really knows what's going to happen years from now insider or not.

"-You're right, I am probably just pulling it all out of my ass.-"

I didn't say that so don't be so childish.

"-Kind of like the price you put on the first DVD player every made when comparing it to the new formats. Toshiba released the first DVD player on the market and I owned it. It cost quite a bit less then $1000.-"

Not at all and you're either retarded or trying to twist my words on purpose.
If you would have quoted me your ploy wouldn't have worked 'cuz I WROTE -"-Didn't DVD players start more in the >$2K range and HDF players are looking to start in the <$1K range?-"

That funny thing at the end is called a 'question mark'. That makes what I wrote a 'question' -'cuz you obviously don't know that.
That's not at all stating guesses as facts like you were doing. But you think everyone does what you did so you aren't seeing plenty of other posts clearly either.

"-Another one of your pulling it out of the old butt.-"

Now that's childish and insulting. Do you do your editing work during recess?
Pretend to be a grown-up and I'll go back to treating you like one.

"-The studios announced support for HD-DVD before anyone announced support of BDR.-"

But they knew Blu-Ray existed right?

And 'yes' or 'no'.... more importantly AFTER they knew Blu-Ray existed (which was quite a long time ago) they didn't withdraw support for either side when a clear format war was started.

That would have been perfectly reasonable to do. They didn't owe HD-DVD anything.

And a long time later we even had both formats at least pretent to try to merge into one to avoid a war so the studios remaining on one 'side' is in fact what supporting a side in a format war is.

And remember the 'war' hasn't really started yet. The studios still have time to withdraw support to 'not back a format war' or flip sides (making the sides so uneven that the winner becomes clear right off the bat making the war short).

"-Buena Vista. So THEY decided to support a war, not the other way around-"

I didn't say it was the other way around. You seem to imply that I think it's the HD-DVD group that's at fault?

ALL studios 'backing a side' (either side) are supporting a format war.

"-Sony could have helped end this format war by presenting the Blu-Ray format to the DVD Forum for adoption as the next generation DVD format, they chose not to.-"

I'm sure it's as simple as you just stated. Right.

I won't bother even trying to debate situations that neither of us fully know about -unless you have the most incredible and vast amount of inside sources of anyone to know the full story of the history of either format.
And if you do please feel free to tell the FULL behind the scenes story of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray... 'cuz you'd be the only person who could do it.

"-The Forum chose HD-DVD (and the DVD Forum is comprised of a good majority of the members of the BDR consortium and they remain part of the DVD Forum) as the next format instead.-"

Everyone knows that already and it didn't lead to any kind of a point but thanks.
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post #30 of 98 Old 07-14-2005, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Ryan you were a little harsh and attacked Kris first. Why call a persons credibility ...we're all going to be right in ways and wrong in others.
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