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post #91 of 4781 Old 09-23-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

Thanks for the info. Again, I was just wanting some information (hence the correct me if I'm wrong) and hope you didn't take it as a personal attack

That is one game though and you said currently (not future) xbox360 has lots of games that render at 1920x1080. Maybe I just haven't seen it but I though MS said most were 720 the "sweet spot". I also am curious as to how all these games will become 1080p with the update, again scaling isn't the same as rendering. So what would happen with something like PGR3 that isn't even rendering at 720p while racing? Will the framerate drop even more? Again, I haven't seen any evidence for a some of the other claims you've made .

FWIW, Joystiq also said that DMC4 demo at TGS was running below 720p natively, and I expect this to be the case most of the time, where the games might be rendered at 720p and then upscaled to the output resolution of 1080i or 720p.

And IIRC, PGR3 game engine was set in stone long before the Xbox360 hardware was finalized, and hence they could not rewrite their game engine to make advantage of tiled rendering [required by the 360 to render full 720p/1080i with FSAA], and still make the launch date with the console. I expect PGR4 to take full advantage of 1080 rendering with aroung 2xFSAA and some sort of AF.
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post #92 of 4781 Old 09-23-2006, 05:49 PM
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There needs to be a clear separation between games at 1080p and HD-DVD's at 1080P. To equate that the Xbox 360 has problems ruining games at 1080P so there for it a push for HD-DVD also is just flat out wrong. The only reason the Xbox 360 has problems is because of the graphics Processing Unit trying to keep up with that high of a resolution and appyling all of the graphic processing and tricks wich can take and ungodly amount of processing power to do at 1080P. Where the HD-DVD is just read off the disk and the 1:1 pixels are decoded and placed in their position. It does take some juice to decode the HD-DVD format but the XBOX 360 has more than enough to do so and the out RGB/Component has plenty of bandwith. If there is any reason the 360 has problem with HD-DVD is has nothing to do with processing power whatsoever.
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post #93 of 4781 Old 09-23-2006, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks

And there will be only one PS3 thread in BD forum also. Correct?
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post #94 of 4781 Old 09-24-2006, 07:12 AM
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It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK
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post #95 of 4781 Old 09-24-2006, 08:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BulletToothDave View Post

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.

u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u?
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post #96 of 4781 Old 09-24-2006, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by g55555sim View Post

u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u?

Hilarious. Includng the responses on joystiq that discount his input. You could at least provide a link so he can find out.
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post #97 of 4781 Old 09-24-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BulletToothDave View Post

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK

Yeah, someone mentioned this very same thing in another HD 360 thread. I posted a response in that thread, but in case you missed it, here it is:

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

Then you will have full res without copy protection over component connections. An if its truly 1080p (I don't care either way at this time since my set is 720p), then with the purchase of a couple products, mostly by microsoft, you have just done what the content providers didn't want you to be able to do: Have NON copy protected, analog connections of upconverted DVDs and full 1080 resolution for HD DVD. Hey...thanks microsoft!

-Alan
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post #98 of 4781 Old 09-24-2006, 09:07 AM
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Although I have an A1, I'm tempted to pick up an addon for my 360 if its cheap. Then I can move my 360 to the upstairs computer room, hook up via VGA to my 1680x1050 LCD, plug in my headphones and enjoy. I really don't get to play it much downstairs on the big TV due to kids etc, but I can lock myself away upstairs. And if I sit close enough it'll be pretty good :P
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post #99 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdTN View Post

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

-Alan

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.
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post #100 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 06:11 AM
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Another thing I find kind of amuzing, is people should take this product for what it is: An inexpensive alternative to those who already own 360s to get into HD DVD. This player isn't meant to best the HD-XA1 I'm sure. I'll probably bet its intended audience is the "bang for the buck" folks.

-Alan
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post #101 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 07:28 AM
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One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe). If Sony, who actually manufactures the diodes, has to delay their own console due to diode shortages then how is MS going to be able to make any significant number of players when they are dependant on buying the diodes from Sony and Nichia? I think there will be huge demand for the player but very limited market penetration simply due to limited quantities available.
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post #102 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_dallas68 View Post

One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe).

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.
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post #103 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_dallas68 View Post

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.


It's not useless or a scam.......Just not the greatest thing without HDMI.....Your display purchase is always the biggest in a multi media set up. So now you have to narrow your choices down to display's that will accept 1080P over VGA, or even have a VGA input. That is becoming rare as HDMI is clearly the standard. That just isn't the way it is supposed to work, the big thing being influenced by the capabilities of the little thing. Never mind the Audio issues you miss out on. MS knows this and I just wish they would say there isn't going to be HDMI. I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......I can understand and am fine with no built in HD-DVD drive, but they could have done HDMI and then with this add on they could have had a system that could stand Toe to Toe on specs with the PS3. I am just getting a little tired of MS downplaying the HDMI. Right now if the PS3 comes out with the bugs worked out and the specs aren't downgraded any further, then yes PS3 has a technological advantage over MS, and I think it will get bigger next year and 3 years from now!
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post #104 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.
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post #105 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?
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post #106 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Butler5 View Post

I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......

Well, MS will probably come out with an HDMI cable for the 360 pretty soon. They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).
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post #107 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tom_dallas68 View Post

They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).

This is dead wrong. Digital output needs to be secure - which means HDCP now.
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post #108 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HorrorScope View Post

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.

I agree. The entire HD industry is poised to sell new equipment based on the virtues of 1080p and even HDMI despite the fact that 95% or more consumers will see no difference whatsoever from 1080i to 1080p and HDMI's biggest benefit is in DRM moreso than for the consumer.

At least HDMI brings the enhanced sound capabilities although even that is a somewhat manufactured benefit thanks to license restrictions on other digital Audio connections and requires new equipment (suprise!).

Tallen94's post though does have some indications that he *could* be an insider including the fact he list Dead Or Alive 4 as a 1920x1080 native 360 game and it so happens that Itagaki said in an interview that the goal for DoA4 was 1920x1080/60fps. Not sure, if the release game reached that target though, so I'll have to dig a bit...

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post #109 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 10:32 AM
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Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Will the add-on be able to upconvert my home movies and backed-up dvds over component since they are not copy protected? I know the only way to upconvert commercial dvds is with the VGA cable, but I haven't heard anything about home movies.

Thanks for the help.
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post #110 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_dallas68 View Post

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?

Starting reading here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8381945
including the links for some answers.

Bob
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post #111 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tallen94 View Post

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.

Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games.

If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles. Given that 1280x720 with anti-aliasing looks as good if not better (engineers love to argue this point) than 1920x1080 without, if anti-aliasing is not an option (and it is horribly expensive on the PS3's RSX), they will go for 1280x720 since you get back more precious VRAM.

For me, "1080P" with regards to PS3 games is something of a dubious bullet-point. Not quite "blast processing" but it certainly isn't the Holy Grail either.

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

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post #112 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BulletToothDave View Post

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK

Does this mean then that movies via component will also be able to be displayed at 720p (the max for my TV anyway)? He says 1080i, so I am assuming anything below that is fair game. If so, sweet deal, I will probably get this over the Toshiba because I am not happy with VGA on my TV (I tried it this weekend, did not turn out to good).

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post #113 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances. 1080p allows you to sit much closer to the TV without seeing the pixel/blocks. It is smoother, from 15' away (depending on screen size) you do not see this anyway so it is not as beneficial. This has been argues to death in the Plasma forum and the result is basically the same (what I just said).

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post #114 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances.

No. It is because people are often confusing resolution on the display with resolution at the transmitter. You don't see difference from the display because there is no difference to begin with. 1080i60 transfer the same 1080p/24/30i as 1080p60 did.

HDPLEX
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post #115 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallen94 View Post

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.
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post #116 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.

Ahh yes, the XDK. I have it for the Xbox1, that is a good way test it. So you have the 360 XDK then? Test and tell us then,

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

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post #117 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

The games probably don't render @ 1920x1080 it's probably something in between like 1024x768 or 1280x1024 so couldn't be classified as pure 1080p. Also, it may be that most of those games will be too slow on the 360 to play at that resolution so MS doesn't want to get people too excited.
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post #118 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 02:28 PM
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I don't have the XDK to hand - however, I do have a phenomenally powered HD capture system that can capture at any resolution up to 1920x1200, a retail Xbox 360, VGA cable, and Dead or Alive 4 demo

The only way right now to get big resolution from Xbox 360 is to use 1280x1024 and set it to Widescreen mode. So effectively we're getting 1024p - not that far off 1080p, and tons more vertical resolution than 720p. So any vertical scaling should be obvious to behold.

Here's a capture of the DOA4 demo running in this resolution. The only scaling artefacts I'm seeing are horizontal in nature due to a 16:9 image running in a 4:3 resolution.

This is that same image rescaled to widescreen in Photoshop - 1860x1024 (not a million miles away from 1920x1080). Obviously it's been scaled a fair bit horizontally but it still looks better than 720p.

Here is image 1 scaled to 1280x720. It definitely looks to me like resolution has been lost...

Finally, This one is the 720p image scaled back up to 1860x1024, ie to match image 2. Looks a bit fuzzier, but the difference is not as pronounced as I would hope.

So far from conclusive but I'd say that there is a some merit to this story that the 360 already has a catalogue of 1080p titles. And if it is just good scaling... well, then the 360 has a very nice scaler.

If any one wants TIFF versions of these files, please PM me with an FTP address and I'll upload them for you. In the meantime, I'll see about the resolution these games produce when the framebuffer itself is dumped. That's the only way to be sure.
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post #119 of 4781 Old 09-25-2006, 11:11 PM
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I currently have a Samsung TV that can only do 1080p through its VGA port. From what I read, the HD-DVD player will do 1080p movies with the cable?
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post #120 of 4781 Old 09-26-2006, 02:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post


Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.


for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps, so perhaps they'll run in 1080i/60 and be deinterlaced to 1080p on the TV or in the Xbox. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080i/60 (or 1080p/30 equivalent) source, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away. Quite a small percentage really.
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