Component is showing better picture then HDMI on my setup! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 53 Old 10-16-2006, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Strange things with this A1, the best picture that I am receiving through my Front projector is through component have tried HDMI, 1080i, 720i, etc have tried everything that I can think of and yet the best picture is through component . :eek:

Able to get a picture with HDMI and yet the component is better. Have a Panasonic projector and they state that their input is HDCP compatible, etc. :(

My question is has anyone encountered this???? I do admit the picture is great but wondering well it must be fantastic if I can get the true Digital signal through the HDMI. :D

Ralph
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post #2 of 53 Old 10-16-2006, 12:53 PM
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I have only had my A1 for a few days now but it seems the HDCP handshake can be an issue for some people. The simple solution seems to be to turn off both devices and unplug for 5-10 minutes. Turn on your projector first then turn on your A1 to establish the handhsake over HDMI.
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post #3 of 53 Old 10-16-2006, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It appears that my information from Panny is wrong according to additional research the projector is copy protected. :eek:

Ralph
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post #4 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 10:02 AM
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I still could believe this with any given projo / display / HD-DVD player combo though.

If you want the best out of your equipment, you better be ready to do some serioous trial and error on different connection schemes. You can't really go by conventional wisdom alone that digital is always better than analog.
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post #5 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 10:58 AM
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If you're getting a picture on your projector with HDMI, then there is no copy protection issue.

And it's entirely reasonable that you might get a better picture with component. All the hype about HDMI is largely theoretical (keeping it all in the digital domain means it will definitely be a better picture). I've done A/B testing with my projector and plasmas and have never been able to see that HDMI ever provided any improvement. It was either a tie, or component was a little better. And I did my testing blinded from the source.
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post #6 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian

And it's entirely reasonable that you might get a better picture with component. All the hype about HDMI is largely theoretical (keeping it all in the digital domain means it will definitely be a better picture). I've done A/B testing with my projector and plasmas and have never been able to see that HDMI ever provided any improvement. It was either a tie, or component was a little better. And I did my testing blinded from the source.
Yes, independent "expert" testing has shown this as well. Component is just damn good. There was nothing wrong with it, consumers were just duped. At least ICT is some years away and my analog set can enjoy some HD signals for the rest of its life.

HDMI was simply a pandora's box. Theoretically it is superior, as one less D/A A/D should be better, but HDMI also brings in other problems, way more annoying than an impercetible (at best) loss in signal.

Enjoy the component, but if you want SD DVD upconversion, you need to backup your DVDs. I do this and it works really, really well. You could run both and use HDMI only for SD DVDs.

***Warning*** Do not look into laser with remaining eye!!
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post #7 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
If you're getting a picture on your projector with HDMI, then there is no copy protection issue.

And it's entirely reasonable that you might get a better picture with component. All the hype about HDMI is largely theoretical (keeping it all in the digital domain means it will definitely be a better picture). I've done A/B testing with my projector and plasmas and have never been able to see that HDMI ever provided any improvement. It was either a tie, or component was a little better. And I did my testing blinded from the source.
What do you guy's mean, that HDMI is just a Hype? Perhaps so is HD-DVD, if running the player through HDMI is not better but component is just as good why bother with the hassle of buying more expensive DVD and a player? :mad:

If I am able to receive an image :eek: through my projector, could it just be an analog picture??

Ralph
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post #8 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 03:23 PM
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I think each setup is different, and there are many different variables. Resolution (of the source and destination), source quality, cable quality, cable length. And last, but probably most importantly...individual perception. Some people like the color reproduction of digital (including me), but probably just as many prefer a softer image that may come from analog signals. I had excellent quality with both component and HDMI, but I prefer the HDMI. Especially over the longer distance I have (25ft), the HDMI is clearly better for me. For smaller runs, I've heard the differences is lesser, even negligible. So, take your pick, choose what works best for YOU. After all, the specs mean nothing if you don't like it!
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post #9 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 03:30 PM
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What do you guy's mean, that HDMI is just a Hype? Perhaps so is HD-DVD, if running the player through HDMI is not better but component is just as good why bother with the hassle of buying more expensive DVD and a player?
Don't get your point. It's fairly well known that running the picture through component can be as good as HDMI. Only problem with using components with HD-A1 is you can't use the upconverting ability of the HD-A1.
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post #10 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
What do you guy's mean, that HDMI is just a Hype?
Here's what I mean. HDMI *theoretically* could give you a better picture because there's one less digital to analog conversion to be made. But in reality, most people can't tell the difference, but some *think* they can. But HDMI was never designed with the viewer's best interest in mind. It was developed as a copy protection vehicle, pure and simple. But some folks have been duped into thinking that it was a gift from the studios to give us better picture quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
Perhaps so is HD-DVD
No, HD-DVD (and well done Blu Ray) is clearly not hype, it is significantly better than any SD DVD could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
... if running the player through HDMI is not better but component is just as good why bother with the hassle of buying more expensive DVD and a player? :mad:
You're not understanding what you're talking about. The reason you're buying a more expensive DVD and player is for the higher quality audio and video stored on the discs. But you can still see and hear that higher quality through analog connections like component video and 5.1 channel analog audio.

What HDMI allows for is:
1) the studios to copy protect their stuff (the sole reason for HDMI in the 1st place)
2) a single connection from one component to the next instead of 3 component cables and 6 audio cables
3) one less digital to analog conversion and *theoretically* a resulting better picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
If I am able to receive an image :eek: through my projector, could it just be an analog picture??
Umm, you're still not with us here. If an analog signal comes into your digital projector, then your projector does an analog to digital conversion and spits out its image. If it receives a digital signal, then depending on the resolution of that signal, it can display it natively or scale it to its native resolution. And your brain is going to do a digital to analog conversion anyway. We don't have digital brains.

So, bottom line, your picture is just fine. All you've done is proven the point that the *theoretical* improvements/benefits of HDMI are just that, *theoretical* in many cases. But it's OK, you're not missing anything.
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post #11 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=jacksonian]If you're getting a picture on your projector with HDMI, then there is no copy protection issue.

Correction, and a little miss understanding here, my Panasonic AE500 has only DVI input, so I used a HDMI converter to use out of the A1 and connected to the DVI input on the Panny. According to Key Features on the Panny it States = COPY-Protected DVI Input.

Ralph
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post #12 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 05:22 PM
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Ralph,
I'm not misunderstanding anything. I own the same projector. You said your projector was copy protected. Projectors aren't copy protected, the material might be. But if you're getting a picture with your setup, then obviously copy protection is not part of the issue you brought up. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Based on your questions and responses here, I'd encourage you to do a lot more reading and get a better understanding of these technologies or you're goinig to be very frustrated.
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post #13 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you running the A1 through the avi or component, and your thoughs if you think that the A1 is showing a better picture then your previous DVD player? and do you think that the player worth the extra bucks that we have spent.

By the way thanks for your quick replies.

Ralph
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post #14 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 06:06 PM
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With the RCA HDV-5000 and my Pioneer DV-59avi I get a better picture through component than HDMI to DVI on my Pioneer Elite RPTV. Sound and Vision Mag tested the big brother to my set 64in. and said when running high def signals through component and DVI the component resolved higher frequency signals than did the DVI allowing for greater resolution than the new digital input was capable of. With anything I have put in the component output looks noticeably better. I think the results will vary by set. In theory Blu Ray was supposed to look better than HDDVD, so no HDMI is not always superior.
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post #15 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
And it's entirely reasonable that you might get a better picture with component. All the hype about HDMI is largely theoretical (keeping it all in the digital domain means it will definitely be a better picture). I've done A/B testing with my projector and plasmas and have never been able to see that HDMI ever provided any improvement. It was either a tie, or component was a little better. And I did my testing blinded from the source.
This is exactly right - look at which companies were behind creating the HDMI spec - Silicon Images, Microsoft, Intel, and the movie studios. Not a single Consumer Electronics company. HDMI wasn't invented to provide better picture quality, it was primarily a trojan horse to give movie studios HDCP protection on their content.

And after the exceptional marketing blitz, it seems to have worked.

I love HD...and I hated that Anti-Consumer format war.

Now that we can move on... Blu-ray > Digital Downloads!
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post #16 of 53 Old 10-18-2006, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdavis21484
This is exactly right - look at which companies were behind creating the HDMI spec - Silicon Images, Microsoft, Intel, and the movie studios. Not a single Consumer Electronics company. HDMI wasn't invented to provide better picture quality, it was primarily a trojan horse to give movie studios HDCP protection on their content.

And after the exceptional marketing blitz, it seems to have worked.

It seems that it has worked so far, to a but let see how many players are sold, in one forum they stated that they expected higher sales of BR and DVD, it appears that their projections on sales are way off so far.

Ralph
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post #17 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapper
What do you guy's mean, that HDMI is just a Hype? Perhaps so is HD-DVD, if running the player through HDMI is not better but component is just as good why bother with the hassle of buying more expensive DVD and a player? :mad:

If I am able to receive an image :eek: through my projector, could it just be an analog picture??

The best HD vs SD is the reason to buy the player. Not Digital vs analog.
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post #18 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRO-630HD
With the RCA HDV-5000 and my Pioneer DV-59avi I get a better picture through component than HDMI to DVI on my Pioneer Elite RPTV. Sound and Vision Mag tested the big brother to my set 64in. and said when running high def signals through component and DVI the component resolved higher frequency signals than did the DVI allowing for greater resolution than the new digital input was capable of. With anything I have put in the component output looks noticeably better. I think the results will vary by set. In theory Blu Ray was supposed to look better than HDDVD, so no HDMI is not always superior.
It's very common for component to work better than DVI/HDMI on a CRT. Having the player do the D/A conversion instead of the display seems to work better (video signal in a CRT has to be converted to analog at some point for output). On my Sony CRT RPTV (KP-57WS520) component and HDMI are very close once fully calibrated, but I give component a slight edge. But, Sony did a good job implementing HDMI on my set.

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post #19 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 08:26 AM
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HDMI produces an image that is superior to one delivered by component.

If that's not the case on your setup, then it needs some adjustments.
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post #20 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leedees
HDMI produces an image that is superior to one delivered by component.
Tell you what - you come over to my house and check out Lost in high-def, which I have going through component. If you're not completely floored, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Based on what I've seen from my calibrated display, HDMI is nothing more than a quicker way to make a connection, accompanied by a crapload of handshaking problems; the superiority to component is almost nil, and I have good eyes for that stuff.
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post #21 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksonian
If you're getting a picture on your projector with HDMI, then there is no copy protection issue.

And it's entirely reasonable that you might get a better picture with component. All the hype about HDMI is largely theoretical (keeping it all in the digital domain means it will definitely be a better picture). I've done A/B testing with my projector and plasmas and have never been able to see that HDMI ever provided any improvement. It was either a tie, or component was a little better. And I did my testing blinded from the source.
My own independent testing concludes pretty much the same. One, however, should always keep in mind all displays are not equal. Some may be optimized for one over the other, while their is no discernable difference in others. Go with whichever solution provides the best image.
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post #22 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leedees
HDMI produces an image that is superior to one delivered by component.

If that's not the case on your setup, then it needs some adjustments.
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone. :rolleyes:
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post #23 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leedees
HDMI produces an image that is superior to one delivered by component.

If that's not the case on your setup, then it needs some adjustments.

Delt with many HT systems???? Blanket statements like that show a lack of experience is all. :)
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post #24 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Bring on the heat :rolleyes: , this threat is getting a little personal folks.

Ralph
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post #25 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 01:38 PM
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Well I did not mean it to be personal. But after dealing with between 500 and 1000 different peoples setups and transformations. over the past 10 years or so. The only way to know you are getting the absolute best performance you can is to try it all, retry it all and decide for yourself which is the best way to connect and run various display / audio source combos.

This is just the reality of it.
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post #26 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 03:22 PM
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Alright, now this only applies to my 2 displays (Pioneer 6070 plasma and Panasonic 500 pj). But I just hooked everything up in parallel via HDMI and component. I have my TiVo S3 hooked up and a DVD player so I can A/B the same scenes over and over. HDMI and Component are INDISTINGUISHABLE. Can't tell them apart on A/B.

So 1 cable vs. 4 is nice. And with HD-DVD/BD, 1 cable vs. 9 is even nicer. But don't think you're going to get a magically better picture with HDMI. End of story.
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post #27 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leedees
HDMI produces an image that is superior to one delivered by component.

If that's not the case on your setup, then it needs some adjustments.
And your proof is......what?

I love HD...and I hated that Anti-Consumer format war.

Now that we can move on... Blu-ray > Digital Downloads!
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post #28 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 03:36 PM
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Component looks better on my TV (57s500) than the HDMI/DVI, not much better, but the color and depth of the picture just seem richer. I have a DLP HDTV and a CRT HDTV and the CRT beats out the DLP for overall picture quality.
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post #29 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
but the color and depth of the picture just seem richer
Variations in these are not caused by the connection, but by differences in calibration for the various inputs on your display.

On a high quality display, with properly designed circuitry, and with moderate to long cable runs, an HDMI connection will always display a significant increase in detail with less ringing than any form of analog connection. This is simply due to the fact that termination and impedance discontinuities in the analog world cause reflections within the cable, which blurs sharp transitions and increases blurring on edges in the image. This problem does not occur in the digital (DVI, HDMI) world.

Any other differences (black level, chroma, tint, gamma, picture "depth", etc etc) are merely byproducts of differences in calibration between the inputs being used. Calibrate both of the the inputs to a standard and these differences will disappear.


Vern
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post #30 of 53 Old 10-19-2006, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias

Any other differences (black level, chroma, tint, gamma, picture "depth", etc etc) are merely byproducts of differences in calibration between the inputs being used. Calibrate both of the the inputs to a standard and these differences will disappear.


Vern
unless what he's seeing is the black crush problem with hdmi:dvi

i wonder if he's got any adapters or a hdmi to dvi connection in his setup.

i just picked up my hd-a1 last night and i'm pretty disappointed with the black. i think i'm encountering this problem as i have a dvi switch between my hdmi receiver and hdmi projector. i'm going to test component tonight. but the whole bummer with this is that the reason i bought a new pio 84 receiver was so i could enjoy dd+ and ddthd over a single hdmi cable. :(

i'm really not in the mood to hook up the analog outs. :(

"the one who has the most fun wins."
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