Tosh HD-A2 HD DVD - First End User Reports! - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 02:39 PM
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I know I posted this on another thread- but I am really worried.just hooked up the player-I am using optical for audio (no HDMI on B&K reference 50)-the problem is the sound is all messed up. The soundtrack and effects seem to be there but the dialog seems distant like its coming from some surround channel-I can hardly make it out. The setting I used is 'Bitstream". The B&K displays DTS 5 surround-which is a music setting. I set it to movie but it reverts back. If this is the case I cannot use this player-which is unbeleivable since B&K is hardly cheap stuff. Anything I am missing?
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post #632 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by scaesare View Post


To the best of my knowledge there are NO sets that have a multiple-of-24 output, but refuse a multiple-of-24 input, an instead will only accept a 60i in.

To the best of my knowledge this is correct. There aren't any.

(Optoma HD81 1080p DLP FP is rumored to have proper 1080i/60 IVTC/frame rate conversion for a display rate of 48Hz with upcoming C07 firmware.)
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post #633 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

btw... Now that it has been confirmed that the A2 still suffers from CUE with its HD 1080i/60 output it is per definitionem true that you NEVER EVER can restore the original frames encoded on the disc by going through a fancy (and totally unnecessary to begin with) IVTC process. PQ always suffers with 1080i/60 decoding and output. CUE is not just a slight announce - it is VERY serious. We are talking here about an enthusiast format that's most important selling point is its vast improvement in PQ/AQ. CUE is a antediluvian issue that slashes real world chroma resolution/definition. HD-DVD sure doesn't deserve this.

Question is: A1/XA1 has the same issue. And still Toshiba didn't change it for G2. I sincerely hope that they don't use "CUE free" as one upgrade argument for the upcoming XA2... And be aware: This is a defect present in the decoder - if XA2 still uses the same 1080i decoding process and "deinterlaces"/IVTC the 1080i/60 stream for 1080p/60 output (which is confirmed information) it will also suffer from CUE! So only REAL 1080P decoding will make this problem go away (or they get their 1080i chroma upsampling to work properly).

NATIVE 1080P/24 DECODING AND OUTPUT IS THE HOLY GRAIL. Listen to Joe Kane for once...

I am sorry to disagree. I have a very good video eye and can rarely see CUE and very slightly when I do. CUE varies in degradation and the A2 has very little CUE and I can only see it when the resolution is set to 720p.

I agree when viewing video on a 1080p 24 Hz display with source material and a device that supports native 1080p and all devices in the circuit also support 1080p 24 fps you will get the very best video, but less than 1% of all HD displays can support 1080p 24. So by making these posts we are doing nothing but confusing the members and guests who read this forum. I understand this is an advanced forum, but I would bet that if we took a pole of the displays used we would still come up with less than 5% of the users with true native 1080p 24 displays.

Please also consider that all HDTV have scalers built-in to convert any signal to the displays best resolution and when you combine a HD DVD player with a external scaler you get as good an image as possible, just as good as any player that can output 1080p 24.

Most importantly remember every HD DVD player interlaces the HD DVD disc's native 1080p 24 to 1080i 60 and ALL of the (data) information is included with the output, it's just interlaced to match the majority of HDTV capabilities best and most HDTV handle this signal excellently, especially those very few 1080p 24 displays that easily reassemble all of the interlaced data back to 1080p progressive lines.

-Robert
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post #634 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I am sorry to disagree. I have a very good video eye and can rarely see CUE and very slightly when I do. CUE varies in degradation and the A2 has very little CUE and I can only see it when the resolution is set to 720p.

I agree when viewing video on a 1080p 24 Hz display with source material and a device that supports native 1080p and all devices in the circuit also support 1080p 24 fps you will get the very best video, but less than 1% of all HD displays can support 1080p 24. So by making these posts we are doing nothing but confusing the members and guests who read this forum. I understand this is an advanced forum, but I would bet that if we took a pole of the displays used we would still come up with less than 5% of the users with true native 1080p 24 displays.

Please also consider that all HDTV have scalers built-in to convert any signal to the displays best resolution and when you combine a HD DVD player with a external scaler you get as good an image as possible, just as good as any player that can output 1080p 24.

Most importantly remember every HD DVD player interlaces the HD DVD disc's native 1080p 24 to 1080i 60 and ALL of the (data) information is included with the output, it's just interlaced to match the majority of HDTV capabilities best and most HDTV handle this signal excellently, especially those very few 1080p 24 displays that easily reassemble all of the interlaced data back to 1080p progressive lines.

-Robert

Robert,

I'm sorry but I disagree. Read my posts above.

PLEASE, let's not downplay a issue like CUE. This is serious. And it has been for years now. It is not something just the golden eyes like Kris and Stacey in their fancy labs are able to spot. Depending on the content CUE artifacts are jumping right at you watching a movie on a large and decent FP setup. HD resolution sure lessens the obvious defects compared to DVD. But as always : the better and more revealing ones setup the more severe a issue like CUE gets. And as always: ignorance is a bliss.

And Robert,

the point is that if you introduce CUE during decoding chroma detail/resolution/information is lost forever (and with our 4:2:0 sources we don't have much of this to begin with) and the result is that the IVTC process can per definitionem not restore the original frame stored on the disc. AND CUE is a by-product of 1080i based decoding - decode in 1080p/24 and there cannot be CUE. Sometimes the easiest and most straight forward things are the best. And if you have your native 1080p/24 stream after the decoding stage you can still convert it (-> infamous 3:2 pulldown) to 1080i/60 for mainstream output. THAT'S the way it SHOULD be done.
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post #635 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

Robert,

I'm sorry but I disagree. Read my posts above.

PLEASE, let's not downplay a issue like CUE. This is serious. And it has been for years now. It is not something just the golden eyes like Kris and Stacey in their fancy labs are able to spot. Depending on the content CUE artifacts are jumping right at you watching a movie on a large and decent FP setup. HD resolution sure lessens the obvious defects compared to DVD. But as always : the better and more revealing ones setup the more severe a issue like CUE gets. And as always: ignorance is a bliss.

um, there is a thread to continue this debate. Please refer to it. CUE is not being downplayed, if anything its being discussed too often (I accept my share of blame in this matter). No one has noticed it in an initial impression, so it should leave this thread.

***Warning*** Do not look into laser with remaining eye!!
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post #636 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

um, there is a thread to continue this debate. Please refer to it. CUE is not being downplayed, if anything its being discussed too often (I accept my share of blame in this matter). No one has noticed it in an initial impression, so it should leave this thread.

Agreed. Thank you for starting the new thread.
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post #637 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by thetman View Post

I know I posted this on another thread- but I am really worried.just hooked up the player-I am using optical for audio (no HDMI on B&K reference 50)-the problem is the sound is all messed up. The soundtrack and effects seem to be there but the dialog seems distant like its coming from some surround channel-I can hardly make it out. The setting I used is 'Bitstream". The B&K displays DTS 5 surround-which is a music setting. I set it to movie but it reverts back. If this is the case I cannot use this player-which is unbeleivable since B&K is hardly cheap stuff. Anything I am missing?
thetman

Mine arrived today and DTS shows on my receiver. I have bitstream checked also. I prefer DTS, but I guess I accidently hit the audio button on the remote because the actors started speaking FRENCH. Not know what happened I hit AUDIO and another language. Audio again and English but sounded far away, hard to make out. Audio again and English at normal levels out of receiver and speakers. Don't know if that is your problem, but try AUDIO on the remote.
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post #638 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

um, there is a thread to continue this debate. Please refer to it. CUE is not being downplayed, if anything its being discussed too often (I accept my share of blame in this matter). No one has noticed it in an initial impression, so it should leave this thread.

AMEN

Joe V.
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post #639 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:23 PM
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AMEN

Yes. Oh please.
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post #640 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:31 PM
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What is a superbit DVD? I've got a 5th Element DVD that I've have for some years now. Is there a newer release?? Doesn't Blu-Ray own that title?

Superbit is a regular DVD with less compression. It has something like double the data by moving all the extra features to separate discs (or just getting rid of them). Even though they are not HD, the extra data does make them better for up-conversion than ordinary DVD's.

Why would superbit discs initially give the A2's indigestion? Maybe the A2 just needs a good meal to stretch its stomach before feasting on all the extra bits in the superbit disk? (I.e., maybe something to do with exercising a memory buffer before challenging it with all the extra data?)

5th Element may be in a unique situation. The "Superbit Collection" version is no longer available, but I thought I heard the current "Ultimate Edition" is using the superbit disc. I also thought I heard something about the Blu-Ray version being not so great a transfer, so a really excellently-upconverted superbit version can look pretty competitive to the Blu-Ray. I find that hard to believe, though.
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post #641 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:34 PM
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I just got my projector back from repairs..INFOCUS 4805..so this is the first time I tried this...it doesn't have HDMI so I used the components and popped the hd version of KK and I got 1080i signal from my display on the screen.....kool....you still cannot upconvert regular SD this way..but my copies can upconvert.......I am using an A1 player....is the A2 doing this as well through the components?
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post #642 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:47 PM
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Mine arrived today and DTS shows on my receiver. I have bitstream checked also. I prefer DTS, but I guess I accidently hit the audio button on the remote because the actors started speaking FRENCH. Not know what happened I hit AUDIO and another language. Audio again and English but sounded far away, hard to make out. Audio again and English at normal levels out of receiver and speakers. Don't know if that is your problem, but try AUDIO on the remote.

Thanks for your quick response- but its still a no-go. its wierd its like I am only receiving the soundtrack and the dialog is not there at all! I put the audio fromt he dvd playeron PCM and then I could hear all the dialog (butof course its not 5.1 now). This really bums me out-I waited months for this player and now this. So I guess I need a new receiver now-unbelievable. Is anyone else run into this problem?
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post #643 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 03:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thetman View Post

Thanks for your quick response- but its still a no-go. its wierd its like I am only receiving the soundtrack and the dialog is not there at all! I put the audio fromt he dvd playeron PCM and then I could hear all the dialog (butof course its not 5.1 now). This really bums me out-I waited months for this player and now this. So I guess I need a new receiver now-unbelievable. Is anyone else run into this problem?
thetman

Could you try PCM instead of bitstream for the optical? See if that solves the problem....
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post #644 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 04:01 PM
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Could you try PCM instead of bitstream for the optical? See if that solves the problem....

do you mean in the players menu-set it from bitstream to PCM? actually I did this because it was the only way I could hear any dialog..but of course its now in pro-logic not 5.1. I switched it to NEO-6 but still its no digital surround. So whats a good receiver to buy that will pass video and audio through HDMI (I've read that some receivers only pass the video but no audio). Hows the Denons? But really I would rather not buy anything-don't think the wife would like that one bit.
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post #645 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by thetman View Post

Thanks for your quick response- but its still a no-go. its wierd its like I am only receiving the soundtrack and the dialog is not there at all! I put the audio fromt he dvd playeron PCM and then I could hear all the dialog (butof course its not 5.1 now). This really bums me out-I waited months for this player and now this. So I guess I need a new receiver now-unbelievable. Is anyone else run into this problem?
thetman

it happened to me too with my A1 player.......make sure you have speakers set to 5.1 in setup menu..I know it doesn't make sense ....but I was messing around a bit one day and knocked out my sound too..so set to bitstream..and speakers to 5.1
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post #646 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 04:25 PM
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it happened to me too with my A1 player.......make sure you have speakers set to 5.1 in setup menu..I know it doesn't make sense ....but I was messing around a bit one day and knocked out my sound too..so set to bitstream..and speakers to 5.1

My processor automatically detects this-so I don't think this is the problem-never had this problem using coax-infact when watching Hi-Def on comcast-it automatically turns to 5.1 on the processor using optical-so this really puzzles me. If anyone has any more info I could sure use it. thanks
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post #647 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

I am sorry to disagree. I have a very good video eye and can rarely see CUE and very slightly when I do. CUE varies in degradation and the A2 has very little CUE and I can only see it when the resolution is set to 720p.

I agree when viewing video on a 1080p 24 Hz display with source material and a device that supports native 1080p and all devices in the circuit also support 1080p 24 fps you will get the very best video, but less than 1% of all HD displays can support 1080p 24. So by making these posts we are doing nothing but confusing the members and guests who read this forum. I understand this is an advanced forum, but I would bet that if we took a pole of the displays used we would still come up with less than 5% of the users with true native 1080p 24 displays.

Please also consider that all HDTV have scalers built-in to convert any signal to the displays best resolution and when you combine a HD DVD player with a external scaler you get as good an image as possible, just as good as any player that can output 1080p 24.

Most importantly remember every HD DVD player interlaces the HD DVD disc's native 1080p 24 to 1080i 60 and ALL of the (data) information is included with the output, it's just interlaced to match the majority of HDTV capabilities best and most HDTV handle this signal excellently, especially those very few 1080p 24 displays that easily reassemble all of the interlaced data back to 1080p progressive lines.

-Robert

Robert, curious... did you get any feedback from Toshiba Tech about the A2 not playing certain discs (Nemo), then playing them after some tricks? This is kind of annoying.
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post #648 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 05:02 PM
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Nemo works fine.

There is an issue with a Copy Protection technique which is trying to be used on those discs. When you are at the FBI screen, keep hitting Skip Next until the menu appears. From then on you will be fine.

This happens on some other DVD players as well, and Disney has stopped using this technique.

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post #649 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterS View Post

Nemo works fine.

There is an issue with a Copy Protection technique which is trying to be used on those discs. When you are at the FBI screen, keep hitting Skip Next until the menu appears. From then on you will be fine.

This happens on some other DVD players as well, and Disney has stopped using this technique.

well.... I cant get to the FBI screen.. says "can not play disc; check disc" with a error message 6...

I am on the road thus I have not tried rwestley's scheme yet to see if it will work for me.
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post #650 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 05:59 PM
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This is kind of a strange request but can someone measure the dimensions of the box that the A2 comes in from the store?
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post #651 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chris_steltz View Post

This is kind of a strange request but can someone measure the dimensions of the box that the A2 comes in from the store?

From the store or from Toshiba?
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post #652 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by chris_steltz View Post

This is kind of a strange request but can someone measure the dimensions of the box that the A2 comes in from the store?

Chris, the Toshiba Box from BB measures:

21" Wide x 18" Deep x 6 1/2" High
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post #653 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 06:57 PM
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I have to agree with Robert, Cue will not be an issue for most users. This player is great compared to the A1. No skipping and a wonderful HD Picture I just viewed MI3 and several other disks with no issues. I did have a problem with Nemo but it is resolved. Buy this player from Rob at Value Electronics you will not be sorry.
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post #654 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by thetman View Post

My processor automatically detects this-so I don't think this is the problem-never had this problem using coax-infact when watching Hi-Def on comcast-it automatically turns to 5.1 on the processor using optical-so this really puzzles me. If anyone has any more info I could sure use it. thanks
thetman

since I have an A1 player I do not know what the menus setup is like in the A2..I only know it has a 2 channel and 5.1 channel setting in the setup audio menu in the A1 and that if you do not have the audio set up to 5.1..even if you are using an optical or coaxil connection..you only get 2 channel decoding from the dvd player.....so if you have that option in the A2 setup audio menu..make sure it says 5 .1

you have me thinking about unretiring my ref 20 and checking it out for myself..the B&K pre amps are plug and play so there should be no issue..the lexicon I use sees it as dts film through the optical....

However there are several things to try first
if you plugged in any cables during the setup of your player while either the pre amp and or the dvd player was plugged into electric you can cause a static discharge that can cause glitches..un plug both the dvd player and the pre amp from electric and let them fully power down..then plug in the dvd player first b4 plugging in the ref 50

if that fails..check the manual..I forget which buttons on the front you have to press simultaniuosly......and reset the ref 50 back to factory defaults
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post #655 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 07:55 PM
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I could never find a store that had an HD DVD player on display...they were always showing off the Blu-Ray players. The Blu-Ray players that I've seen displayed look quite impressive to my eyes. So I bought the HD-A2 from Best Buy today to try it out since they have an open box return policy. I hooked it up to my Sammy 5687 and went to town. The first thing I noticed was that the picure is as good, if not better, than the Blu-Ray players I had seen displayed. Second, the blacks are so much deeper and richer than any HD material I had ever seen with my DirecTV. It's at least $200 cheaper than any BD player I've seen. It's the size of a normal DVD player. The sound is incredible. I could go on and on, but in a nutshell, I've decided I can't part with this thing!
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post #656 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 07:59 PM
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Thanks for the measurements wirelessman
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post #657 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 08:16 PM
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Just got my A2 tonight. Thanks to Robert for getting these out to us. My apologies for my constant bugging.

Couple things I noticed:

1.) Pretty fast boot times. Comparable to my Sammy Upconverting DVD player I replaced.

2.) Tried out Parts of King King and it played great. Picture quality looked a little better than the 360 add on, but not major difference, but probably going from component to HDMI.

3.) Watched Chronicles of Riddick all the way through. No dropped audio or hiccups. Sound was great for DD+. I still had to turn my receiver up way higher than I do with LPCM from my PS3. Not sure what the differences are on the decoding of audio.

4.) Tried out V for Vendetta and selected the TrueHD track. My receiver showed PCM96. I remember someone asking about whether the A2 did 96khz audio, anad this one seemed to play it.

5.) I have the audio in the setup menu set to Auto via HDMI. My receiver does show PCM on the display, but under the "Display" section, the Audio is showing as Digital Bitream or something to do that effect. I would have expected to see PCM or something along those lines. Though I'm convinced it is passing the PCM audio since it reads it on the receiver display.

6.) I mentioned briefly that the Audio is MUCH lower than my BD playing movies playing LPCM. I watch Tears of the Sun at -10db on the receiver. I had to turn my receiver up to 0db to get somewhat decent audio out of the A2. This was also the case for V for Vendetta. I'm not sure whats going on, but for some reason the audio is lower. Hope this is fixable.

7.) I briefly played Gladiator to test out the upscaling and audio. It passed the DTS stream over correctly via HDMI. So that was good. The picture seems just as good if not better than my previous Sammy upconverting player.

All in all, I'm very happy with my player.

Now I wonder what I'll do with my 360 Add-on drive.
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post #658 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 08:53 PM
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The audio output over HDMI is lower on my A2 compared to my A1, but not by alot. Instead of my Denon being on -31dB for the A1 I need to put it on -27db for about the same volume with the A2.

I need to check out V and see what my receiver shows. I had it in yesterday but didn't notice 96khz popping up on the receiver.

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post #659 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 09:02 PM
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My Denon still shows 48Khz with the TrueHD track on V. With the A1 the Denon shows 96Khz output but nothing on the A2 has showed up as 96Khz.

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post #660 of 5306 Old 12-11-2006, 09:08 PM
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After all my CUE rant around here... - Kudos and a big thank you to Toshiba for providing 480i HDMI DVD output with the A2.

About CUE - I take it I may have put off and/or caused second thoughts among some "non-videophile" (read: not as anal about all this as I'm) potential A2 customers around here - this was certainly not my intention. First of all you will have a very hard time finding a next generation HD player on either side of the fence that doesn't suffer from CUE. And for all those who don't know what CUE is/means or have never been bothered by it up until now - rest assured you will not notice it with the A2 either. It is a non-issue for you. Go out, buy it and get yourself the great HD-DVD experience!

(btw This statement was in no way sponsered by Toshiba. It is my honest opinion.)
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