HD-DVD player hacks for Component Video upconvert? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 02-06-2007, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm hoping there is some hack to use the component video output on an HD-DVD player for sDVD upconverting.

I know there's some for hacks for standard definition players, but if I'm going to get a new player (I have a denon 1920 right now, and it sadly does not do the component video at 720p, and there's no hack I know of), I'd really like to get one that does some HD media as well.

My understanding is that any HD player will play over the component video for HD, but not for upconverted DVD, unless the DVD is non-copy protected (as in a backup copy). I really don't want to burn copies of 300+ dvd titles.

Any recommendations?
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post #2 of 28 Old 02-06-2007, 07:58 PM
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Geeze, if I had 300+ DVD titles and did not want to go through the effort of making a backup, ripping & reauthoring to just the movie (without trailers/ad's) and just the soundtrack of choice -- then I would feel that I could afford to buy a HDMI display. Such is life
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post #3 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, well, this will really flip your lid then.

My current display IS hdmi. ;-) However, it is a 768x1366 pixel system anyway, and only does 1080i.

My AVR is not, and I just bought it last year. And since component at 720p looks no different than HDMI at 720p, and I can run it through my AVR, easily flipping between sources, I'd really rather just find an HD DVD that can upconvert at 720p on component... since I am goint to buy an HD DVD player anyway.

Otherwise...

I'd have to use the TV remote... flip to the HDMI input, change the avr input, mute the sound on the TV... it's all just such a PITA.

Pretty damn funny hey?
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post #4 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 12:56 PM
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Hmm, buy a new remote? A Harmony 880 will set you right up.
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post #5 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey_C View Post

Pretty damn funny hey?

I agree that it would be great if they just made things easier for us all. They could have just boosted the data rate a little bit on coax S/PDIF and given us 5.1 linear PCM, or DD+, or dts-HD HR without whole new digital audio interface using HDMI (or previous IEEE Firewire iLink with 5C). But content providers' desires for copy protection got in the way.

I'm using analog 5.1 and component video outputs. If I want to re-watch a DVD that I own with the best upconvert display capability -- then I go through the bother of making a backup. Probably a good idea anyway since the desire to re-watch a DVD would indicate that it is valuable to me anyway.
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post #6 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey_C View Post

Okay, well, this will really flip your lid then.

My current display IS hdmi. ;-) However, it is a 768x1366 pixel system anyway, and only does 1080i.

My AVR is not, and I just bought it last year. And since component at 720p looks no different than HDMI at 720p, and I can run it through my AVR, easily flipping between sources, I'd really rather just find an HD DVD that can upconvert at 720p on component... since I am goint to buy an HD DVD player anyway.

Otherwise...

I'd have to use the TV remote... flip to the HDMI input, change the avr input, mute the sound on the TV... it's all just such a PITA.

Pretty damn funny hey?

A couple extra cables doesn't matter if you have a good universal remote. I press just as many butons on my remote as if I had one cable or ten connected to my display. I only bought a HDMI AVR so I could enjoy DD+ and DDHD...etc etc. Use your HDMI port...thats what it's for.


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Simple. Clean. information about high definition
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post #7 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey_C View Post

I'm hoping there is some hack to use the component video output on an HD-DVD player for sDVD upconverting.

I know there's some for hacks for standard definition players, but if I'm going to get a new player (I have a denon 1920 right now, and it sadly does not do the component video at 720p, and there's no hack I know of), I'd really like to get one that does some HD media as well.

My understanding is that any HD player will play over the component video for HD, but not for upconverted DVD, unless the DVD is non-copy protected (as in a backup copy). I really don't want to burn copies of 300+ dvd titles.

Any recommendations?

I tried making a backup of a movie I own just to see if the Xbox HD Drive would upconvert it. NOPE. Doesn't work.

There's Good TV, Better TV and DirecTV, but nothing beats a calibrated TV!!

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post #8 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmschultz View Post

I tried making a backup of a movie I own just to see if the Xbox HD Drive would upconvert it. NOPE. Doesn't work.

Are you positive, because other people are saying it does? I have no way of knowing myself, because my TV does not show the resolution that it is displaying.
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post #9 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbutle4 View Post

Are you positive, because other people are saying it does? I have no way of knowing myself, because my TV does not show the resolution that it is displaying.

I've never heard anyone say the XBOX 360 with the HD player add-on will upconvert on component video.

However the Toshiba standalone players all do (with backup DVDs).
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post #10 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 02:38 PM
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Greetings

If your display is 1366x768 ... sounds like a plasma set. This TV has 1.05 million pixels to display an image.

When you tell the HD DVD player to output 720p ... you send out 922,000 pixels to the TV.

The TV gets these 922K worth of pixels and has to scale up to fit its 1.05 million pixel panel.

Scale up ... as in make up information to fill the extra space.

When you tell the HD DVD player to output 1080i ... you send out an image comprised of 2.074 million pixels of information. When the TV gets this signal ... it throws away information (downscales) to fit the available 1.05 million pixel panel.

The end result is the Tv is still displaying 1.05 million pixels of real information ... versus your method of displaying a less detailed image at 720p on the same display.

Just wondering why? (There are reasons why people would do this, just wanted to hear what yours were.)

Regards

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post #11 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

I've never heard anyone say the XBOX 360 with the HD player add-on will upconvert on component video.

However the Toshiba standalone players all do (with backup DVDs).

Why wouldn't the 360 add-on be able to upconvert a backup DVD over component if the Toshibas can?
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post #12 of 28 Old 02-07-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbutle4 View Post

Why wouldn't the 360 add-on be able to upconvert a backup DVD over component if the Toshibas can?

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post #13 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

If your display is 1366x768 ... sounds like a plasma set. This TV has 1.05 million pixels to display an image.

When you tell the HD DVD player to output 720p ... you send out 922,000 pixels to the TV.

The TV gets these 922K worth of pixels and has to scale up to fit its 1.05 million pixel panel.

Scale up ... as in make up information to fill the extra space.

When you tell the HD DVD player to output 1080i ... you send out an image comprised of 2.074 million pixels of information. When the TV gets this signal ... it throws away information (downscales) to fit the available 1.05 million pixel panel.

The end result is the Tv is still displaying 1.05 million pixels of real information ... versus your method of displaying a less detailed image at 720p on the same display.

Just wondering why? (There are reasons why people would do this, just wanted to hear what yours were.)

With the 1080i signal sent to the 720p (or in this case 768p) TV there are three major transformations:

1. The player interlaces the 1080p from the disc into 1080i.
2. The TV deinterlaces the 1080i signal.
3. The TV removes pixels to bring it down to 768p.

Those three steps could make things worse than simply having the player do the one step of downscaling the signal down to 720p followed by the minor upscaling to 768p in the TV.
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post #14 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post


sorry if it's a dumb question
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post #15 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

With the 1080i signal sent to the 720p (or in this case 768p) TV there are three major transformations:

1. The player interlaces the 1080p from the disc into 1080i.
2. The TV deinterlaces the 1080i signal.
3. The TV removes pixels to bring it down to 768p.

Those three steps could make things worse than simply having the player do the one step of downscaling the signal down to 720p followed by the minor upscaling to 768p in the TV.

Greetings

Thanks ... I know that. And there are other possibilities. But what are the original poster's reasons? These are your reasons, not his.

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post #16 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbutle4 View Post

sorry if it's a dumb question

Not dumb. I am confused by what Microsoft engineered in the 360 HD DVD software for component video output hard limitation on upconverting any DVD. I think they over-reacted IMHO.
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post #17 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Not dumb. I am confused by what Microsoft engineered in the 360 HD DVD software for component video output hard limitation on upconverting any DVD. I think they over-reacted IMHO.

I think they simply did it to save money, given the low price of the HD DVD add-on. They just want didn't want to do the programming and testing for upconversion over component.
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post #18 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 09:08 AM
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I would think this device would give you want you're looking for.


Edited to add: Well AVS doesn't like links to eBay it would appear, so here it is in plain text:

http://cgi.*********/HDMI-to-VGA-PC-...QQcmdZViewItem

Just replace the asterisks with e b a y . c o m (without the spaces).

I give up, the eBay item number is: 320078120753

Roger

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post #19 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

I think they simply did it to save money, given the low price of the HD DVD add-on. They just want didn't want to do the programming and testing for upconversion over component.

the subject was discussed here on AVS for ages...
that limitation has nothing to do with technology: NO DVD Player is allowed to upconvert copy-protected material (most commercial DVDs) beyond 480p, that's the rule imposed on manufacturers by DVD Consortium.
Of course in the age of HD (and specially HD-DVD) it's idiotic, but it is the LAW...

Kris
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post #20 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 10:00 AM
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The 360 will upconvert video files to HD - whatever resolution your 360's interface is set to. However, this is done through the Media Center functionality and not through the DVD or HD-DVD drive. You would need to host the file on a USB drive or on a PC on the network with the 360 and stream the content via the Media interface. This works in several different formats (MPG, WMV, Etc), there is even a plugin available that supports transcoding of DivX and Xvid files on the fly - and it all works pretty well actually... But, you can't author the files to your own DVD and play it upconverted through the drive. I have read (Green Button site) that you can copy WMV files to a CD/DVD and play those disks in the drive upconverted but, I have not verified that myself so cannot confirm.

As far as the OP's question: I have not seen a hack or anything myself that allows upconversion of standard DVD's over component on any of the HD-DVD players.
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post #21 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.berger View Post

the subject was discussed here on AVS for ages...
that limitation has nothing to do with technology: NO DVD Player is allowed to upconvert copy-protected material (most commercial DVDs) beyond 480p, that's the rule imposed on manufacturers by DVD Consortium.
Of course in the age of HD (and specially HD-DVD) it's idiotic, but it is the LAW...

Did you read the posts in this thread? We were talking about the 360 refusing to upconvert unprotected DVDs over component. By upconverting nothing over component, they didn't have to include the however many lines of code that would be required to do it.
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post #22 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 10:54 AM
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I am assuming that if the HD DVD add-on cannot upconvert unprotected dvds over component, then the 360's internal dvd player can't either, right?
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post #23 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

Did you read the posts in this thread? We were talking about the 360 refusing to upconvert unprotected DVDs over component. By upconverting nothing over component, they didn't have to include the however many lines of code that would be required to do it.


That's the ORIGINAL question of OP:

Quote:


I'm hoping there is some hack to use the component video output on an HD-DVD player for sDVD upconverting.

I know there's some for hacks for standard definition players, but if I'm going to get a new player (I have a denon 1920 right now, and it sadly does not do the component video at 720p, and there's no hack I know of), I'd really like to get one that does some HD media as well.

My understanding is that any HD player will play over the component video for HD, but not for upconverted DVD, unless the DVD is non-copy protected (as in a backup copy). I really don't want to burn copies of 300+ dvd titles.

Any recommendations?

So, it clearly is NOT what was originally discussed here...

Kris
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post #24 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 01:04 PM
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The device I pointed to on eBay (Item number 320078120753) does exactly what the OP wants. It takes the HDMI output from the source, ignores the copy protection, and outputs RGB or Component at the same resolution that it is fed.

So, if your player will upconvert to 1080i or 1080p or whatever through the HDMI output, this device would allow you to feed that signal to your component inputs on your TV.

Roger

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post #25 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.berger View Post

So, it clearly is NOT what was originally discussed here...

My response was to the comment about the 360's "hard limitation" against upscaling over component, which is not the same as the industry-wide conditional limitation (based on whether the DVD is copy protected).
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post #26 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

My response was to the comment about the 360's "hard limitation" against upscaling over component, which is not the same as the industry-wide conditional limitation (based on whether the DVD is copy protected).

I understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that that was not original question. It was risen at post # 7 in this tread as totally unsubstantiated claim which would be put to rest with 15 sec Google search:

Quote for "endgadget":

""
VGA:

* HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
* DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
* Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:

* HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
* DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
* Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

""

End Quote

The fact that Xbox (with the HD drive) upscales over VGA means that obviously it HAS processing power and software to do so, it DOES NOT do it over component for above mentioned reasons (for "endgadget": >limited by CSS<).

Kris
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post #27 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.berger View Post

The fact that Xbox (with the HD drive) upscales over VGA means that obviously it HAS processing power and software to do so, it DOES NOT do it over component for above mentioned reasons (for "endgadget": >limited by CSS<).

Nope, it (XBOX 360 with HD DVD add on) won't upconvert on compenent video without regard as to whether the DVD has CSS or not. That is not the case for standalone Toshiba HD DVD players -- they will upconvert on component video, DVDs which do not have CSS.
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post #28 of 28 Old 02-08-2007, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdmi4ever View Post

With the 1080i signal sent to the 720p (or in this case 768p) TV there are three major transformations:

1. The player interlaces the 1080p from the disc into 1080i.
2. The TV deinterlaces the 1080i signal.
3. The TV removes pixels to bring it down to 768p.

Those three steps could make things worse than simply having the player do the one step of downscaling the signal down to 720p followed by the minor upscaling to 768p in the TV.

The first thing a HD-DVD player does is convert the 1080p/24 information on the disc to 1080i/60 no matter what is selected to be output so you are not going to get rid of that step. Then the player will de-interlace and re-sample to 720p so you have three steps in the player and one more in the TV. On the other hand with 1080i the TV can use the original 1080P images to re-sample to its display resolution of 768.

The single best single thing to do would be to output 480i to an external deinterlacer/scaler.

Gary J
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