Aspect Ratios of movies Please read before posting questions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 62 Old 03-24-2007, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a explanation of aspect ratios. This has been asked to have a sticky so here it is.

http://www.rexer.com/cine/oar.htm


http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5140690-4.html
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post #2 of 62 Old 04-07-2007, 11:23 AM
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Mybe I'm missing something obvious here, but I think it would be helpful if more information were included on both those sites about effective image resolution - the native pixel area data of the movie on the disc (especially in the case of a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie), and how the film-scan itself was performed.

To elaborate, is the pixel area (resolution data burned ONTO the HD-DVD disk) of the image of a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie 1920 pixels wide x 1080 pixels high? If it is, does any of the 1080 pixels high include black bars? If it does not, this must mean that the original scan of the movie film was perfomed UNEQUALLY in the horizontal and vertical dimensions - that is, either the vertical resolution is 1080 pixels high and the horizontal width was scanned at a different ("stretched") frequency than the vertical (thus allowing the horizontal width to be "streched out" to it's original 1920 pixel width by the display device), or the opposite.

If the pixel-area data on the HD-DVD for a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie is not 1920 pixels wide x 1080 pixels high, then what is it?

Specifcally, how can it be claimed that when one uses a zoom to expand the image to fill the vertical dimension of the display (chopping off both ends of the horizontal dimension), it causes the image to become "softer"? Is this softening due to the "coarser" scanning rate in the horizontal dimension now being made more obvious?

If that's the case, my wife and I like having full height on our 16x9 lcd display (no black bars) without softness, so we would like to see made available 1.78:1 "pan and scan", or "formatted for your screen", versions of 2.35:1 movies. That way, those folks who want to see the original aspect ratio would be happy, and those who want to have full 16x9 height without softness due to mis-matched horizontal/vertical scaling would also be happy.

Put them on separate disks, or even sell them separately, if necessary. My wife and I are sick and tired of "slot vision", so we'll buy the 16x9 "chopped" version every time.
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post #3 of 62 Old 04-07-2007, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

To elaborate, is the pixel area (resolution data burned ONTO the HD-DVD disk) of the image of a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie 1920 pixels wide x 1080 pixels high? If it is, does any of the 1080 pixels high include black bars? If it does not, this must mean that the original scan of the movie film was perfomed UNEQUALLY in the horizontal and vertical dimensions - that is, either the vertical resolution is 1080 pixels high and the horizontal width was scanned at a different ("stretched") frequency than the vertical (thus allowing the horizontal width to be "streched out" to it's original 1920 pixel width by the display device), or the opposite.

If the pixel-area data on the HD-DVD for a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie is not 1920 pixels wide x 1080 pixels high, then what is it?

The entire 16:9 image, black bars included, has a resolution of 1920x1080. The original HD master uses square pixels and does include the black bars on movies wider than 16:9. The 2.35:1 active image area of a "scope" movie utilizes approximately 1920x800 of those pixels.

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If that's the case, my wife and I like having full height on our 16x9 lcd display (no black bars) without softness, so we would like to see made available 1.78:1 "pan and scan", or "formatted for your screen", versions of 2.35:1 movies. That way, those folks who want to see the original aspect ratio would be happy, and those who want to have full 16x9 height without softness due to mis-matched horizontal/vertical scaling would also be happy.

Put them on separate disks, or even sell them separately, if necessary. My wife and I are sick and tired of "slot vision", so we'll buy the 16x9 "chopped" version every time.

You and your wife should stop worrying about the black bars and just watch the movie. Turn off the lights in your room -- It helps.

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post #4 of 62 Old 04-07-2007, 12:00 PM
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Here's another pretty good guide/explanation:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...hic/index.html
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post #5 of 62 Old 04-07-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The entire 16:9 image, black bars included, has a resolution of 1920x1080. The original HD master uses square pixels and does include the black bars on movies wider than 16:9. The 2.35:1 active image area of a "scope" movie utilizes approximately 1920x800 of those pixels.

You and your wife should stop worrying about the black bars and just watch the movie. Turn off the lights in your room -- It helps.

Thanks for clearing up the question of the pixel-dimension of the HD-DVD signal.

As I said, my wife and I would like the option of seeing a movie that was shot in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio cropped so that our display recieves an "active image area" signal that is approximately 1080 pixels high, by 1920 pixels wide - or, in the case of our lcd display, 768 pixels high by 1366 pixels wide.

In other words, we want full height resolution maintained and cut off, in the theortical case of a native 1080 x 2538, 2.35:1 aspect ratio image, 309 pixels on each side.

Whether or not one does this is all a question of taste, and it seems that my wife and I are far from alone.

From what you say about the HD-DVD active image area being 1920x800 on a 2.35:1 movie, I think that my wife and I can get what we want on our 1366x768 lcd display should we in the future buy an HD-DVD player that has a zoom feature. We'll send our display a 1080i signal (our display does not accept 1080p) and simply zoom it until our display's 768-pixel height is filled, or nearly filled, or whatever we want in between, with the 800-pixel active image height of the incoming 1080 signal.

Bye bye black bars, and we'd still have full "HD" vertical resolution. Of course we'd lose image on either end, but, as I said, so be it.
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post #6 of 62 Old 04-07-2007, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

From what you say about the HD-DVD active image area being 1920x800 on a 2.35:1 movie, I think that my wife and I can get what we want on our 1366x768 lcd display should we in the future buy an HD-DVD player that has a zoom feature. We'll send our display a 1080i signal (our display does not accept 1080p) and simply zoom it until our display's 768-pixel height is filled, or nearly filled, or whatever we want in between, with the 800-pixel active image height of the incoming 1080 signal.

Bye bye black bars, and we'd still have full "HD" vertical resolution. Of course we'd lose image on either end, but, as I said, so be it.

The black bars are not your enemy. Learn to accept them and you'll be much happier in the long run.

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post #7 of 62 Old 04-10-2007, 06:54 AM
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Going to make a more detailed post or thread on this soon.

But a heads up.

For those that have been irritated on your HD DVD displaying old non-anamorphic HD DVDs in a window box, I've found the solution to the problem. (It should work on all the HD DVD players out there) .


On the HD XA2 or HD A2 Go to the Picture: Resolution Setting: and change it down to 480p. For the HD A1 or HD XA1 hit the resolution key on the remote and change the to 480p.

That should re-enable your displays zoom functions so you can enlarge the picture from the window box and fill your 16:9 screen from right to left and get the right OAR and proper sized letterbox.

Obviously the picture might be a bit softer because the Reon is only going to 480p and the quality of the zoomed picture is up to your displays capability, but its cool for those older non-anamorphic DVDs that you have.

Maybe, someone posted this before, I didn't see it, but the picture quality still looks more than ok on my HD XA2 and my front projector combination, and its a lot handier than using optical zoom on the HD upconverted 720p or 1080i image.

It works because most displays will not zoom HD content but the will zoom 480p content.

Apologize if this has been posted before.

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post #8 of 62 Old 04-10-2007, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

That should re-enable your displays zoom functions so you can enlarge the picture from the window box and fill your 16:9 screen from right to left and get the right OAR and proper sized letterbox.

I'm pretty sure my (ancient) Pioneer PRO-510HD locks to "FULL" if a progressive signal is the source (and it's component only). It would have to be 480i for me to be able to use the different screen modes that it offers.
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post #9 of 62 Old 04-18-2007, 03:47 PM
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In an effort to help decide which ratio my next screen should be I talllied all the HD-DVD titles I could find with their associated aspect ratios. The results might benefit others so I'll post the relevant ratios and there percentage. If this is not appropriate pm me and I'll remove this post. If anyone wishes to view the spreadsheet to view groupings PM me and I'll email it to you.

Total # of HD-DVD titles: 177

Ratio....%

2.40...20.34%
2.35...31.64%
1.85...28.81%
1.78...14.12%
1.77-1.33...3.39%
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post #10 of 62 Old 04-26-2007, 01:31 PM
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I am very new to this but have a panasonic 50" 9UK and an XA2. I bought a few used hd movies and was disappointed to see that the apect ratio was different than the display's 16x9. Horizontal black bars are not necessarily my friend. All else being equal it would be nice if the movie properly filled the entire screen. I bought all the screen size that was affordable and would like to take full advantage of it. Are more movies going to be in the 16x9 ratio in the future? Is that what is being said here? To me that would be a good thing.

Tom
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post #11 of 62 Old 04-26-2007, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobester View Post

... Are more movies going to be in the 16x9 ratio in the future? Is that what is being said here? To me that would be a good thing.

Though that would indeed be a good thing, that is not what is being said. Some of us are fervently hoping that more and more future movies are shot with a 16:9 OAR so that our HDTV screens will be filled, but it comes down to what Aspect Ratio the director or the studio wants the movie shot in.

In what may be a futile effort, you can choose to not go to the theater or to not purchase movies filmed with ARs that don't closely match your HDTV, but it's doubtful the studios will get the message and make movies according to what fits on our HDTVs though, as it's in the interest of the studios to draw people to the theater for the "experience" that can't be achieved at home (for most).

Blu won :(
No big deal, I don't buy movies anymore anyway. Time to move on.
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post #12 of 62 Old 04-26-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

If that's the case, my wife and I like having full height on our 16x9 lcd display (no black bars) without softness, so we would like to see made available 1.78:1 "pan and scan", or "formatted for your screen", versions of 2.35:1 movies. That way, those folks who want to see the original aspect ratio would be happy, and those who want to have full 16x9 height without softness due to mis-matched horizontal/vertical scaling would also be happy.

Put them on separate disks, or even sell them separately, if necessary. My wife and I are sick and tired of "slot vision", so we'll buy the 16x9 "chopped" version every time.

Sir! Clearly your LCD display is too small! Sorry, just teasing.

Seriously, though, why do the black bars bother you so much? Is it just an aesthetic thing or is it that you really want to maximize picture size (so much that you're willing to pan/scan or crop)?

I realize not everyone has the budget or space for it, but I watch my HD-DVD movies on a 110" diagonal projection screen and, at that size, my personal feeling is that 2.35:1 films are plenty big and still sharp/detailed (even on my 720p projector). I no longer feel like the black bars are wasting space. Too busy enjoying the rest of the picture.

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post #13 of 62 Old 04-27-2007, 06:47 AM
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Black bars are good when on the TV

Black bars are bad when encoded on the disk, wasting valuable pixels.

2.35 to one aspect ratio is much nicer on the eyes than 1.85 to one (imo) even on a normal 16 by 9 TV.

Long live the 2.35 to one aspect ratio!!!
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post #14 of 62 Old 04-29-2007, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

The black bars are not your enemy. Learn to accept them and you'll be much happier in the long run.

i agree there noting like ws. people dont relize 16x9 tv were designed for tv shows shot in 1.85,not movies.i think they should have designed them for movies where 2.35 fills the screen,but not gonna happen.with the big sound you get now and watch the movie with the light outs you wont even notice the black bars after awhile.
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post #15 of 62 Old 04-29-2007, 04:21 PM
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New to the forum and I read the stickies before posting, even did some searching... but still have a question.

I recently upgraded to a A-20 player from a Samsung DVD (HD960) player. I have noticed on my TV's (I have a 42 and 52 inch Sharp Aquos) that when a movie's AR is 1:85 (The Thing) I am still getting letter boxing as if the movie has a AR of 2:35. I am using the 'dot by dot' setting on the TV.

When viewing 1:85 movies from my Samsung player (which up-converted to 1080i) in dot by dot, I still had a little letter boxing (which I know is normal) but with the A-20, it's no different than a 2:35 movie. For what it's worth, both players are connected via HDMI. I have screwed around with all of the settings and can't seem to get the 1:85 to display with the minimal letter boxing as it did on the Samsung. Granted, I have only tried this with a few movies and perhaps they were labeled wrong, I don't know. Just curious as to why my 1:85s are displaying like 2:35s with the A-20.

I don't mind letter boxing, but just don't understand why 1:85s are displaying like 2:35s.

Any insight or feedback is appreciated.

Thanks..
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post #16 of 62 Old 04-29-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRH07xx View Post

I recently upgraded to a A-20 player from a Samsung DVD (HD960) player. I have noticed on my TV's (I have a 42 and 52 inch Sharp Aquos) that when a movie's AR is 1:85 (The Thing) I am still getting letter boxing as if the movie has a AR of 2:35.

The Thing is a 2.35:1 movie, not 1.85:1. The case is merely mislabeled.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084787/technical

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post #17 of 62 Old 04-30-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

Black bars are good when on the TV

Black bars are bad when encoded on the disk, wasting valuable pixels.

2.35 to one aspect ratio is much nicer on the eyes than 1.85 to one (imo) even on a normal 16 by 9 TV.

Long live the 2.35 to one aspect ratio!!!

It's ironic that the 2.35:1 AR which is so BIG and WIDE at the theater becomes the smallest image on TVs.

Blu won :(
No big deal, I don't buy movies anymore anyway. Time to move on.
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post #18 of 62 Old 04-30-2007, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronken View Post

It's ironic that the 2.35:1 AR which is so BIG and WIDE at the theater becomes the smallest image on TVs.

Depends on your theater. I've seen some where the screen is truly wider for 2.35 and I've seen some that shorten the height of the screen for 2.35 which is just like your tv.
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post #19 of 62 Old 04-30-2007, 11:01 AM
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Quote:


It's ironic that the 2.35:1 AR which is so BIG and WIDE at the theater becomes the smallest image on TVs.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561280
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post #20 of 62 Old 04-30-2007, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin M. Dean View Post

Depends on your theater. I've seen some where the screen is truly wider for 2.35 and I've seen some that shorten the height of the screen for 2.35 which is just like your tv.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561280

Yes, Constant Height projection screens show a 2.35:1 movie at full height, making the overall image bigger, but I guess I should have explicitly said TV displays, and not projection systems. But thanks for sticking up for the vast number of CIH screen owners.

So for the rest of us who only own fixed display devices, the 2.35:1 AR makes for a smaller image.

Blu won :(
No big deal, I don't buy movies anymore anyway. Time to move on.
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post #21 of 62 Old 05-01-2007, 11:05 PM
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I wonder with the advanced environment of HD DVD and Blu-ray they can created a smart crop mode for 2:35:1 movies. You can pick full screen or original aspect ratio before the movie. In full screen the player will zoom and crop to fill the screen with the part of the scene that the movie studio tells it to.
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post #22 of 62 Old 05-02-2007, 03:19 AM
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I wonder with the advanced environment of HD DVD and Blu-ray they can created a smart crop mode for 2:35:1 movies. You can pick full screen or original aspect ratio before the movie. In full screen the player will zoom and crop to fill the screen with the part of the scene that the movie studio tells it to.

Or you can simply zoom your tv....

Monsters inc is a dvd that has both wide and full on the same disc. Only the wide has 5.1 though.
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post #23 of 62 Old 05-05-2007, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

Or you can simply zoom your tv....

Monsters inc is a dvd that has both wide and full on the same disc. Only the wide has 5.1 though.

2x zoom is the only option with hd content with my panasonic 9uk and that is not a good option at all. I wonder if there is a devise such as scaler that would give good results. I am using a Xa2 and would like to fill the screen with hd movies and upconverted dvds.
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post #24 of 62 Old 05-05-2007, 11:34 PM
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Quote:


I wonder if there is a devise such as scaler that would give good results.

Either way you are zooming, and there will be a loss of picture quality.
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post #25 of 62 Old 05-08-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound dropouts View Post

Either way you are zooming, and there will be a loss of picture quality.


Well I think I know what your opinion is on this matter. I would like to hear some others. I guess there may not be a good work around or someone would have mentioned it already if not here then in other areas I have searched. It does not seeem that the zoom and clip needed to fill the 16/9 screen would be that radical but I could be wrong.

Tom
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post #26 of 62 Old 05-08-2007, 11:01 AM
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Ok. I give. I looked at the link above to the guide to film aspect ratios and it would indicate that resizing 2:35:1 to 16x9 is not a good option. Too radical. So I can stop worrying about that and go on to something else. Thanks for the link.

Tom
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post #27 of 62 Old 05-26-2007, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

In an effort to help decide which ratio my next screen should be I talllied all the HD-DVD titles I could find with their associated aspect ratios. The results might benefit others so I'll post the relevant ratios and there percentage. If this is not appropriate pm me and I'll remove this post. If anyone wishes to view the spreadsheet to view groupings PM me and I'll email it to you.

Total # of HD-DVD titles: 177

Ratio....%

2.40...20.34%
2.35...31.64%
1.85...28.81%
1.78...14.12%
1.77-1.33...3.39%

Very cool, thanks for posting that!

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #28 of 62 Old 05-27-2007, 03:47 PM
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Ratio....%

2.40...20.34%
2.35...31.64%
1.85...28.81%
1.78...14.12%
1.77-1.33...3.39%

That means this data shows 16/9 47% and 2.35 53%, interesting.

If it isn't 720p or 1080i/p it isn't HD. If it is 720p or 1080i/p it may not be HD content.
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post #29 of 62 Old 06-10-2007, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herve View Post

As I said, my wife and I would like the option of seeing a movie that was shot in a 2.35:1 aspect ratio cropped so that our display recieves an "active image area" signal that is approximately 1080 pixels high, by 1920 pixels wide - or, in the case of our lcd display, 768 pixels high by 1366 pixels wide.

In other words, we want full height resolution maintained and cut off, in the theortical case of a native 1080 x 2538, 2.35:1 aspect ratio image, 309 pixels on each side.

Whether or not one does this is all a question of taste, and it seems that my wife and I are far from alone.


From what you say about the HD-DVD active image area being 1920x800 on a 2.35:1 movie, I think that my wife and I can get what we want on our 1366x768 lcd display should we in the future buy an HD-DVD player that has a zoom feature. We'll send our display a 1080i signal (our display does not accept 1080p) and simply zoom it until our display's 768-pixel height is filled, or nearly filled, or whatever we want in between, with the 800-pixel active image height of the incoming 1080 signal.

Bye bye black bars, and we'd still have full "HD" vertical resolution. Of course we'd lose image on either end, but, as I said, so be it.

Let me get this straight, you guys want so lop off the sides off of your image so it fits on your screen, but you are worried about wasting pixels on the TV? (or a soft image) No offense, but isn't this putting your tech before the content that you bought it for? What is the point of spending all of that money on gear for movies that you don't care enough about to not to butcher it? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this just seems backwards to me.

Maybe they should have put a pan and scan code in the spec for HD-DVD. That way people who want their movie chopped and dropped can let the player do all of the work. With that method, the director could get the P&S shots that are approved. You guys wanting a whole new disc, so you can get full-spec from your HD are just beeing greedy, IMO. They need to quit muddling our shelves with multi-releases. Far from alone may be the case, but given that %18 of HDTV owners don't know that they need an HD signal, I bet that most of those who want their fullscreen versions would never notice a loss of detail in their image. (yes, there must be major overlapping there)

I admit, when they do come out with wider constant-height direct-view sets, that will be cool, though. As tech gets cheaper, they will have to exploit something new and this could be a nice high-end niche display. One day, I plan on doing a constant-height projection screen theater room.
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post #30 of 62 Old 06-12-2007, 09:56 AM
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Does anyone know of a list that has HD-DVD releases and the aspect ratio they are released at?

I've seen the aspect ratio percentages post earlier in this thread, but I was wondering about specific movies. Or will I have to look at the info on a site like amazon?

Thanks
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