THE Ultimate HD-DVD receiver!! $399! - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Joffer, you have got me curious on this. I know there are certain things that are decided by the authoring process (ie; not allowing you to skip the FBI warning). So are you saying that 99% of current HD-DVD media itself is authored to prevent the decoded bitstream to transfer over HDMI 1.3? I just wanted to get clarification on this. If so... in theory at this point in time, there really is no benefit to having a receiver that can decode the advanced audio codecs... at least on HD-DVD. Can you elaborate?

that's the way i understand it. i read some rumors of some HD DVD players in the future giving the option to bypass decoding in the player, thereby throwing away the mixing of menu/interactive sounds, but those are just rumors. i don't know why you'd want to do that anyway.

i was going to wait to by an HDMI 1.3 receiver until i did some research. then i ended up getting a Denon 2807 because i could find no advantage in HDMI 1.3 as far as HD DVD is concerned. i also think that once blue-ray gets the BD Java thing ironed out, those discs will start being authored "advanced' as well.

obviously if you're in the market for a new HDMI receiver, getting the latest and greatest is the way to go, but there's no reason to replace a 1.1 receiver with a 1.3 receiver as far as i can tell.

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post #212 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnickersonjr View Post

Well, you just said what I said. " LPCM via HDMI will still be the only method for TrueHD delivery with an A2 or A20"

yes, we're in agreement - i was scanning the posts quickly, and misread your post as implying that the 605 would be preferred due to TrueHD support. I was pointing out what you were - that if someone is going to pair the AVR with an A2 or A20, the 604 was just as good a solution because those players are incapable of sending TrueHD natively.

sure it supports TrueHD, but it can't send it..

sorry for any confusion.
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post #213 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Joffer, you have got me curious on this. I know there are certain things that are decided by the authoring process (ie; not allowing you to skip the FBI warning). So are you saying that 99% of current HD-DVD media itself is authored to prevent the decoded bitstream to transfer over HDMI 1.3? I just wanted to get clarification on this. If so... in theory at this point in time, there really is no benefit to having a receiver that can decode the advanced audio codecs... at least on HD-DVD. Can you elaborate?

This is from Dolby (my bold):


Quote:


Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player's mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver.

And, of course, the importance of the very last sentence should not be minimized. Why there's such a push for receiver decoding is puzzling, but I do believe it goes back to the old formats/situation. It's a new game...

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_3.html

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post #214 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 02:57 PM
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^^^ ahhh, that's what it was. the disc would allow bypassing not the player. thanks Jack.

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post #215 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joffer View Post

^^^ ahhh, that's what it was. the disc would allow bypassing not the player. thanks Jack.

Yeah... thanks guys. The sad thing is this thread went 8 pages with joffer mentioning it several times and it seemed to go right over the top of everybody's heads. It kinda makes most of the 605's new features useless, at least for the time being.

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post #216 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

Yeah... thanks guys. The sad thing is this thread went 8 pages with joffer mentioning it several times and it seemed to go right over the top of everybody's heads. It kinda makes most of the 605's new features useless, at least for the time being.

Everybody? From page 2...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10262986

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post #217 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 03:32 PM
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Maybe I missed a memo but this receiver doesn't really bring anything new with regards to HD DVD. Can the XA2 send out a TrueHD bitstream from a disc authored in advanced mode? To my knowledge most (all?) software released to date is authored in advanced mode. I'm under the impression all HD DVD audio has to be decoded in the player because of the authoring mode, it has nothing to do with HDMI 1.3 or lack there of. Can the XA2 work around this?

EDIT-->Slow typer I see it is now coming to light.
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post #218 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

It kinda makes most of the 605's new features useless, at least for the time being.

For those who have HDMI receivers...

I had to buy a new receiver around this time last year due to my old one breaking (Aiwa) and went out and purchased a Onkyo TX-SR503. I could have paid a bit more and gotten one with HDMI, but since my TV didn't have HDMI inputs, I decided to go the cheaper route.

I later purchased an HD-A2... which I'm very happy with, but I have no way of getting TrueHD on the few titles that I have with it. I also intend on getting a PS3 next month, and I have a TON of titles with PCM or DTS-HD MA and no way of listening to them either... so, while I hate to spend the money on a new receiver when I'm happy with mine, pre-ordering allows me the ability to get a machine capable of getting the TrueHD from my HD-A2, PCM from the PS3, and should allow me the ability to get DTS-HD MA from the PS3 soon (hopefully) as well as 1080p pass through for when I get that new 1080p TV late this year for only a little more than what I paid for for the SR503 last year.

In other words, if you don't have an HDMI receiver, this is a pretty good deal...

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post #219 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

From the DTS-HD White Paper:
The DTS-HD Master Audio stream can consist of the core decoder plus the lossless audio extension if backwards compatibility is desired. If backward compatibility is not necessary the lossless audio extension can be used with no core.
Operation with no core maximizes the efficiency of the stream and minimizes decoder complexity and is appropriate where no backwards compatibility is necessary, such as in professional audio archiving or cinema exhibition. In most
cases, however, backwards compatibility with the core and lossless extension is the preferred option.


Source: http://www.dts.com/media/DTS-HD_WhitePaper.pdf

----This is the "core" track I was speaking of.

I see HiRes tried to quietly correct his mistake, but somebody caught it. Sweet Irony

You said the core was DTS-HD. That's simply not true. The DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio core is the regular DTS Digital Surround at 1.509Mbs. If the HD player (HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.2) can't process internally the DTS-HD High Resolution Audio or DTS-HD Master Audio, it will only output regular DTS as bitstream or PCM converted.

This method of DTS extensions over the core (regular DTS Digital Surround) is for compatibility with legacy equipment when the source or receiver/preamp can't access the HD extensions avoiding transcoding.

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dts-...-and-hddvd.php
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post #220 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Where did you see this?

I went to Onkyo's website and looked at the 604 and extrapolated. It looks like you need an 874 or higher to have pre-outs in the last gen.

The fact they omit pre-out in the specs is another sign.
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post #221 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 05:41 PM
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i am trying to understand all of this...but dayum

im so far ahead...I feel outdated
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post #222 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRes_PR View Post

You said the core was DTS-HD. That's simply not true. The DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio core is the regular DTS Digital Surround at 1,509Mbs. If the HD player (HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.2) can't process internally the DTS-HD High Resolution Audio or DTS-HD Master Audio, it will only output regular DTS as bitstream or PCM converted.

This method of DTS extensions over the core (regular DTS Digital Surround) is for compatibility with legacy equipment when the source or receiver/preamp can't access the HD extensions avoiding transcoding.

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dts-...-and-hddvd.php

Yes.... maybe you missed it. I mislabeled it. I made a mistake. You already let me know once. I admitted the mistake, then clarified the "core" I was speaking of, then zhaofl corrected me also, see below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zhaofl View Post

DTS-HD has both formats DTS-HD Master Audio (lossless) and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio(lossy). Though in general discussion, DTS-HD can also refer to DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, the lossy audio format. WirelessGuru quoted the DTS whitepaper about the "core" track, but he mislabeled it as DTS-HD. The DTS Core is the 5.1 channel DTS Digital Sound. HiRes_PR is correct in post #151.

My issue is when you (HiRes_PR) come in here quoting my thread and claiming everyone here is confused and don't elaborate on anything more than a simple teminology slip, and then you yourself go on to quote incorrect data rates, then edit your post as if you never made a mistake in your life.

I am all about ongoing dialogue and discussion, and I am not afraid to admit a mistake if I make one. What I do not like is know it alls who come into the discussion and chip apart others typos, mispellings, and minor mistakes, claiming everyone here is confused, and then not bringing anything to the table. In fact, I find it quite rude.

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post #223 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

And, of course, the importance of the very last sentence should not be minimized. Why there's such a push for receiver decoding is puzzling, but I do believe it goes back to the old formats/situation. It's a new game...

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_3.html

While it may not be needed with the Tosh players - when cheaper Chinese players show up with perhapns no 5.1 decoding of the lossless formats - this receiver will come in handy. To me its all about having options ...
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post #224 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post

In other words, if you don't have an HDMI receiver, this is a pretty good deal...

~Alan

This is exactly why I'll be buying this receiver.
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post #225 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 06:56 PM
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I'm not perfect so I have a doubt.

Does the HD-XA2 manual states it can pass Dolby TrueHD through the HDMI? What about DTS-HD or DTS-HD MA? I'm asking because it's not online on the Toshiba website to verify this.

I'm really curious about that. The pass through of newer audio codecs is not a function of the HDMI 1.3 chip but the Broadcom chip to manage all player functions.
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post #226 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRes_PR View Post

I'm really curious about that. The pass through of newer audio codecs is not a function of the HDMI 1.3 chip but the Broadcom chip to manage all player functions.

Not sure. But I'd not characterize the broadcom chip as the one that manages all player functions. But , if the chip only outputs decoded stream, then ofcourse there is nothing much the player firmware can do - but I'd guess that broadcom chip would be able to output non-decoded bitstream.
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post #227 of 590 Old 04-11-2007, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

Not sure. But I'd not characterize the broadcom chip as the one that manages all player functions. But , if the chip only outputs decoded stream, then ofcourse there is nothing much the player firmware can do - but I'd guess that broadcom chip would be able to output non-decoded bitstream.

The Broadcom chip is the player audio and video extraction manager from HD discs. It's the one who "see" all audio codecs available on disc and process the 3 video codecs. It supports all Dolby codecs as well as DTS and DTS-HD. But there are many unclear variables here regarding the behavior of players. And no one really knows if the current HDMI 1.3 equiped sources will work with the lossless codecs through this connection.

My advise to everybody is to wait until these Onkyo receivers are tested for HDMI 1.3 transmission for all advanced audio codecs with current players.
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post #228 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 04:15 AM
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Its gone, now its for $499. Feel lucky that i got my pre order in yesterday. But its on backordered, hopefully they dont cancel it.
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post #229 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 04:25 AM
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I'm probably going to grab a 705...unless something better comes out before my house is done in sept/oct
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post #230 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

While it may not be needed with the Tosh players - when cheaper Chinese players show up with perhapns no 5.1 decoding of the lossless formats - this receiver will come in handy. To me its all about having options ...

Sounds good, but it's tough to imagine 1.3-compliant players (necessary to send the bitstream, of course) not having such decoding. As I posted a couple times it's likely that many discs will require in-player decoding. This would make decoding mandatory in any HD-DVD player, I'd think. I suppose it's also possible that these hypothetical really-cheap players just won't provide lossless sound, only downsampled lossy tracks.

Again, it's not the same as DD/DTS from 10 years ago, where players dropped decoding once receivers had the capability. This stuff works differently, and doesn't require those 6 analog-outs everyone hated.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_3.html

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post #231 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by hjd17 View Post

Its gone, now its for $499. Feel lucky that i got my pre order in yesterday. But its on backordered, hopefully they dont cancel it.

Was anyone able to order this over the phone at the $399 price? They obviously realized that there was some interest in the 605 and raised the price.

Bryan

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post #232 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Lyle View Post

Was anyone able to order this over the phone at the $399 price? They obviously realized that there was some interest in the 605 and raised the price.

First rule of online buying at a low price... NEVER CALL!!!!

You bring attention to a price point that may not be correct.
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post #233 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 06:14 AM
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First rule of online buying at a low price... NEVER CALL!!!!

You bring attention to a price point that may not be correct.

SD rule #1
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post #234 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Lyle View Post

Was anyone able to order this over the phone at the $399 price? They obviously realized that there was some interest in the 605 and raised the price.

Actually it's not uncommon to raise a Preorder price to slow demand once you know your initial allocation is spoken for. I think they'll wait til they order up their 2nd allocation/Increase their initial. I think even Amazon will have a Lower shipping price once they get it in stock. They have the MSRP up as a Place holder.
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post #235 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Poolrad View Post

First rule of online buying at a low price... NEVER CALL!!!!

You bring attention to a price point that may not be correct.

Oh, I didn't call. I preordered the day it was announced here

Bryan

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post #236 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 06:55 AM
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I in turn ordered one on line yesterday at 4:07 pm. Had received the 604B just two weeks ago and still have not dialed it in all the way. Just contacted Amazon about sending it back. I in turn hope the pre-orders go through.

This thing looks AWESOME!

Mongo
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post #237 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 08:30 AM
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So has it been confirmed yet whether the 605 will do PCM 7.1 over HDMI?
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post #238 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 08:33 AM
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Crutchfield has all of their current Onkyo receivers on sale. So it won't be long before the new ones are up. I returned a 674 to them earlier this week after I read about the new line. Also, I realized I didn't really need the 674 because the 604 (and now 605) will do everything I need it to do.

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post #239 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

So has it been confirmed yet whether the 605 will do PCM 7.1 over HDMI?

The 604 seem to do it, it have 7.1 IN and HDMI section of the Manual specify MULTICHANNEL HDMI upto 96khz/24bit, so it's pretty much a give that the 605, newer model, will also do it..

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #240 of 590 Old 04-12-2007, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

This would make decoding mandatory in any HD-DVD player, I'd think.

Some decoding is mandatory according to the specs. I expect entry level players to provide just that - though as you say HDMI 1.3 is unlikely.

Let me put it this way. If I'm buying a receiver for the next 5 years, I'd like that to have HDMI 1.3 and decoding for the new codecs.
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