Chinese HD-DVD Player Rumors/Facts/Conjecture - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1657 Old 05-06-2007, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by yampan View Post

If you "always" have a BD backup for when you invite guests over to watch an HD-DVD movie, and HD is sooooo unreliable, then why don't you just invite your guests over to watch the Blu Ray movie?

Don't even suggest that. Then HD DVD owners would be deprived of the frequent helpful comments that he goes to great trouble to share with us.
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post #92 of 1657 Old 05-06-2007, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

In this case, BD has a bitter job and is in a much worse position than HD DVD.

I agree. For HD DVD, the standards are already in place and the Broadcom platform is being perfected even as we write. For Blu-ray, step one will be finalizing their own specs; and step two will be finalizing a cheap platform for inexpensive players. I don't see step two happening until later this year at the earliest. That puts the production of cheap Chinese Blu-ray players into next year -- that is, if it ever happens at all or of the Blu-ray consortium allows it. But this shows the difference between Blu-ray (shut out the competition) and HD DVD (produce for the mass market) strategy.

The platform for the Chinese HD DVD players was announced at the CES, but has been in the works for quite some time. Since Blu-ray is never shy when it comes to making announcements about future releases, I think they would have already boasted about inexpensive Chinese players if they had any plans for them. Sony's announcement of their $599 player was a rather feeble attempt to answer Toshiba price cuts and future competition from Chinese players.
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post #93 of 1657 Old 05-06-2007, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

For Blu-ray, step one will be finalizing their own specs; and step two will be finalizing a cheap platform for inexpensive players. I don't see step two happening until later this year at the earliest. That puts the production of cheap Chinese Blu-ray players into next year -- that is, if it ever happens at all or of the Blu-ray consortium allows it. But this shows the difference between Blu-ray (shut out the competition) and HD DVD (produce for the mass market) strategy.

The platform for the Chinese HD DVD players was announced at the CES, but has been in the works for quite some time. Since Blu-ray is never shy when it comes to making announcements about future releases, I think they would have already boasted about inexpensive Chinese players if they had any plans for them. Sony's announcement of their $599 player was a rather feeble attempt to answer Toshiba price cuts and future competition from Chinese players.

What's there to finalize with the specs? You're talking about Blu-ray profile 1.1 and 2.0, right? The specs are final, have been so for quite some time. Only the implementation deadline has been changing. Profile 1.1 will become compulsory for new players after Oct-31 but the specs for it are finished already. For step two, one of the major thing is SoC which exists already.

With cheapest Blu-ray-players priced currently for $450, I don't see any reasons why there wouldn't be cheaper players coming soon.
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post #94 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JuKo View Post

What's there to finalize with the specs? You're talking about Blu-ray profile 1.1 and 2.0, right? The specs are final, have been so for quite some time. Only the implementation deadline has been changing. Profile 1.1 will become compulsory for new players after Oct-31 but the specs for it are finished already. For step two, one of the major thing is SoC which exists already.

With cheapest Blu-ray-players priced currently for $450, I don't see any reasons why there wouldn't be cheaper players coming soon.

Thats one way to keep down cost. Release a crippled version of your final product, then when cost comes down, maintain that price, only with all of the features that were "intended". So the specs are finnished...OK, thats good since the machine got released last year. I'm not saying that there will not be revisions of HD-DVD (there were with DVD, of course) but HD-DVD doesn't feel as rushed to me. (even though there seem to be kinks)
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post #95 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JuKo View Post

What's there to finalize with the specs? You're talking about Blu-ray profile 1.1 and 2.0, right? The specs are final, have been so for quite some time. Only the implementation deadline has been changing. Profile 1.1 will become compulsory for new players after Oct-31 but the specs for it are finished already. For step two, one of the major thing is SoC which exists already.

With cheapest Blu-ray-players priced currently for $450, I don't see any reasons why there wouldn't be cheaper players coming soon.

There's a difference between specs on paper and specs that work in players. Blu-ray has lots of things on paper. Building the cheap Chinese player will require more than the SoC. The SoC needs programming as well.

Who from the Blu-ray camp is working on a generic Blu-ray platform that will be shared with manufacturers of cheap Chinese players? Is it Pioneer or Panasonic or Sony? Who will be the first to cooperate to make a ready-made design that will evaporate sales of their pricey standalones.

The Samsung is a discontinued, clearance-sale Blu-ray player. I'm sure there will be lots more of those later this year, including the second-generation Samsung. Samsung is seeing the light and will make a dual-format player. Blu-ray has the choice of selling a miniscule number of pricey standalones or losing money by dropping the prices of these standalones. Giving away the store to Chinese manufacturers is a third option, of course.
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post #96 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 03:37 AM
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It would be good to find out what licensing to make HD DVD players versus Blu-ray players will cost Chinese manufacturers. I'm sure any difference in that cost will make a difference to vendors like Wal-Mart. Licensing played a big role in the VHS/Beta war.
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post #97 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

There's a difference between specs on paper and specs that work in players. Blu-ray has lots of things on paper. Building the cheap Chinese player will require more than the SoC. The SoC needs programming as well.

Who from the Blu-ray camp is working on a generic Blu-ray platform that will be shared with manufacturers of cheap Chinese players? Is it Pioneer or Panasonic or Sony? Who will be the first to cooperate to make a ready-made design that will evaporate sales of their pricey standalones.

The Samsung is a discontinued, clearance-sale Blu-ray player. I'm sure there will be lots more of those later this year, including the second-generation Samsung. Samsung is seeing the light and will make a dual-format player. Blu-ray has the choice of selling a miniscule number of pricey standalones or losing money by dropping the prices of these standalones. Giving away the store to Chinese manufacturers is a third option, of course.

For the reference design:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post10371298
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post10401616


When was the Samsung player discontinued?

Sigma's solution uses Linux (open source) so I would assume licensing costs are lower compared to Microsoft based solutions for HD DVD. I personally don't like idea of paying Windows license for a standalone media player
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post #98 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JuKo View Post

When was the Samsung player discontinued?

Sigma's solution uses Linux (open source) so I would assume licensing costs are lower compared to Microsoft based solutions for HD DVD. I personally don't like idea of paying Windows license for a standalone media player

With the introduction of the Samsung BD-P1200? Were you under the impression that Samsung is still manufacturing the BD-P1000? Sales are of existing stock, of which there is lots and lots. Amazon probably bought up many of these.

To beat a dead horse, some brand spanking new Toshiba A1s are available for much less than the Samsung BD-P1000, but the A1 has been out of production for a long time.

Licenses will be needed for both hardware AND software. Chinese manufacturers cannot make Blu-ray machines just by purchasing licenses for the operating system. Sony et alii own the Blu-ray patents. The VHS/Beta licensing issue was not about operating system code. There will be special problems with sharing Blu-ray patents for copy protection and region coding.

Actually, to the extent that both Blu-ray and Toshiba use Linux, the source code for those programs should technically be released free to anyone who wishes to use or modify it. I suspect that both formats have violated Linux "copyleft" GPL restrictions.
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post #99 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

They don't have to be. J6P is not as demanding as the crowd here.

Lets get this clear. We are not demanding inexpensive players because we want to buy them. But because mainstream consumers can buy them ...

I agree with nataraj, will the average consumer really care whether his inexpensive HD DVD player can pass BTB over DVI? This seems to get quite a few panties twisted on this forum but my cousin and his wife won't care.

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post #100 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

I agree with nataraj, will the average consumer really care whether his inexpensive HD DVD player can pass BTB over DVI? This seems to get quite a few panties twisted on this forum but my cousin and his wife won't care.

And try to explain 1080i vs. 1080p, advanced audio codecs, and the like. One thing they will understand, though, is that if they click on an interactive feature (such as PiP director's commentary), they expect it to work. And the Chinese players will support all the interactive features. That difference from BD will not be lost on them.
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post #101 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

I agree with nataraj, will the average consumer really care whether his inexpensive HD DVD player can pass BTB over DVI? This seems to get quite a few panties twisted on this forum but my cousin and his wife won't care.

99% won't even know what it means, and another 0.9% (like me) will know, but won't care. That leaves 0.1% of the population that might actually care about it.

OTOH, just about everyone knows what Picture-in-Picture means. Many don't care about it, but many do.
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post #102 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

With the introduction of the Samsung BD-P1200? Were you under the impression that Samsung is still manufacturing the BD-P1000? Sales are of existing stock, of which there is lots and lots. Amazon probably bought up many of these.

I don't have any information if it's still being manufactured or not. I saw them both listed as Blu-ray players on Samsung web site. Now when I think about it it sounds correct that they're not manufacturing BD-P1000 any more as it's in the same price range as BD-P1200. No matter what brings prices down it's good thing for customers.
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post #103 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:48 AM
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my a1 is now flawless since 2.1 firmware. i would like to see a cheap full featured bd player.

IMO too bad it looks like the approach they are taking is to cut out features instead of do cost reductions. (extended the bdj-1.1 compliance deadline).

speculation: any low cost bd players will probably be missing pip, networking and usb this year. next year probaby just missing usb and networking.
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post #104 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by oliverjg View Post

my a1 is now flawless since 2.1 firmware. i would like to see a cheap full featured bd player.

IMO too bad it looks like the approach they are taking is to cut out features instead of do cost reductions. (extended the bdj-1.1 compliance deadline).

speculation: any low cost bd players will probably be missing pip, networking and usb this year. next year probaby just missing usb and networking.

Eh?

I thought the 2008 release date was for BDJ 2.0. Last I heard 1.1 was still on for October 2007.
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post #105 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

Eh?

I thought the 2008 release date was for BDJ 2.0. Last I heard 1.1 was still on for October 2007.

players released after october must comply to 1.1 players released before don't have to. they will release the players for this holiday season by the end of summer.
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post #106 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oliverjg View Post

my a1 is now flawless since 2.1 firmware. i would like to see a cheap full featured bd player.

IMO too bad it looks like the approach they are taking is to cut out features instead of do cost reductions. (extended the bdj-1.1 compliance deadline).

speculation: any low cost bd players will probably be missing pip, networking and usb this year. next year probaby just missing usb and networking.

Why was Toshiba able to put all this stuff in their players, while Blu-ray can't get it all done this year? It can't be all that hard to add these hardware components.

There must be a lot of backstage or backroom disagreement among the Blu-ray partners. I would like to be a fly on the wall at one of those meetings, especially after reading about the spat at the DVD Forum meeting.
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post #107 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

Why was Toshiba able to put all this stuff in their players, while Blu-ray can't get it all done this year? It can't be all that hard to add these hardware components.

There must be a lot of backstage or backroom disagreement among the Blu-ray partners. I would like to be a fly on the wall at one of those meetings, especially after reading about the spat at the DVD Forum meeting.

toshiba has the features because they are mandatory in the original specs. also, they saved some engineering $ by making players low to high end very similar. (lke putting mercury badges on fords).

it is a lot harder to add things after the fact iin the hardware f you didn't plan ahead for it. bd players after oct. willl actually have more hardware then the gen1 players. not a good way to do cost reduction..

it is my personal view that we are seeing a tug of war between bda studios that want the features and hardware makers that don't want to spend the engineering $ unless they can show some profit from the first round.
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post #108 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:22 AM
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Interesting how $1000+ (MSRP) players couldn't come with an ethernet port, USB, extra memory, secondary video processor, and the like. I wonder what the full retail would have been with these hardware specs in the first place? Or was the profit margin on the Blu-ray standalone players really that high?

It will also be interesting to see $199 Chinese HD DVD players with all this stuff that was just too expensive for Blu-ray to include in the first place and not cost-effective for them to add on or before October 31.
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post #109 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:35 AM
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they could have come with the extra ports easily at the start but the specs didn't require them.

IMO the situation now is like you gave an architect the requirements to design a house and they did it. but you never told them is was supposed to have an office and a 4 car garage. an office and a bigger garage are not hard things to add to the design at the start or even to take into cosideration to be added later. but, if you have to add them later when there was no pre planning it can create a lot of expensive problems to solve.
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post #110 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:41 AM
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US$299 HD DVD players unlikely this year
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On the heels of the Fuh Yuan Electronic Development admitting that it has not received orders from Wal-Mart for two million HD DVD players at a target retail price of US$299, industry sources commented that it is unlikely that HD DVD players will fall to such a low price this year.

The sources explained that global supply of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) pick-up heads (PUHs) is still tight because yield rates on blue-laser laser diodes are quite low and the world's major suppliers of such PUHs, including Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic), have assigned their production capacities for own use first. Since PUHs and chipsets together account for 60-70% of the production costs of HD DVD and BD players, the shortage of PUHs renders it almost impossible to minimize the production costs to below US$299 this year, the sources noted.

Other industry sources summed it up by saying any HD DVD player selling for US$299 this you would be priced below production costs.

Fuh Yuan Electronic Development found itself in a bit of hot water last month when its president, Hung-chi Teng, was cited in a Chinese-language Eastern Multimedia report as saying that the company had received orders from Wal-Mart for two million HD DVD players. In response, Wal-Mart denied the claims and Fuh Yuan had to issue a press release on April 26 saying that Wal-Mart had only inquired about possible schedules and costs of producing such HD DVD players.

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post #111 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by los seres View Post

US$299 HD DVD players unlikely this year

these "industry sources" seem to be very uninformed since the a2 is actually selling for < 300 now if you factor in the 5 free disk offer.

also, that is msrp. you can get the a2 for < 300 + 5 free disks. which makes the actual street price of the a2 (if you actually want to watch the 5 freebies) < 200.
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post #112 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by oliverjg View Post

they could have come with the extra ports easily at the start but the specs didn't require them.

IMO the situation now is like you gave an architect the requirements to design a house and they did it. but you never told them is was supposed to have an office and a 4 car garage. an office and a bigger garage are not hard things to add to the design at the start or even to take into cosideration to be added later. but, if you have to add them later when there was no pre planning it can create a lot of expensive problems to solve.

You may be right, but the design of the first and second generation Toshibas is radically different; and that simpler design probably resulted in significant cost savings.

It would seem that the new generation Blu-ray players could be similarly redesigned. To use your comparison, they wouldn't be revising an old drawing, but making a new one. That may be easier than trying to fix an old design.

Of course, it might be true that the architecture of the later generation Blu-ray players will be identical to the older ones in every way, except the hardware that needs to be added to conform to specs.

But that solution would be very different from Toshiba's, which was to maintain the same hardware specs (USB, ethernet, and all) but completely redesign and simplify the architecture of the player as a whole.

Of course, if Blu-ray agrees to negotiate with the Chinese to design a simple and inexpensive architecture, the Blu-ray partners could use this same design themselves and save enough money to lower cost on their players.

Perhaps Blu-ray should have contracted with Chinese designers in the first place and avoided the high cost of R&D that will only be compounded by evolving and slowly implemented specs.
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post #113 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

You may be right, but the design of the first and second generation Toshibas is radically different; and that simpler design probably resulted in significant cost savings.

It would seem that the new generation Blu-ray players could be similarly redesigned. To use your comparison, they wouldn't be revising an old drawing, but making a new one. That may be easier than trying to fix an old design.

Of course, it might be true that the architecture of the later generation Blu-ray players will be identical to the older ones in every way, except the hardware that needs to be added to conform to specs.

But that solution would be very different from Toshiba's, which was to maintain the same hardware specs (USB, ethernet, and all) but completely redesign and simplify the architecture of the player as a whole.

Of course, if Blu-ray agrees to negotiate with the Chinese to design a simple and inexpensive architecture, the Blu-ray partners could use this same design themselves and save enough money to lower cost on their players.

Perhaps Blu-ray should have contracted with Chinese designers in the first place and avoided the high cost of R&D that will only be compounded by evolving and slowly implemented specs.

i am not sure i follow what you are saying. does the new samsung have usb/ethernet/pip hardware? i haven't looked at it yet because the price is too high for me.

if not it is following my analogy exactly. they took the original plans and simplified the relationships between the rooms to make it more efficient to build.

the first set of plans is like a custom design. then they go to suburbia and make 1000s of basically the same layout ("cookie cutter houses").
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post #114 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by oliverjg View Post

i am not sure i follow what you are saying. does the new samsung have usb/ethernet/pip hardware? i haven't looked at it yet because the price is too high for me.

if not it is following my analogy exactly. they took the original plans and simplified the relationships between the reooms to make it more efficient.

the first set of plans is like a custom design. then they go to suburbia and make 1000s of basically the same layout ("cookie cutter houses").

As far as I know, the new Samsung doesn't have any of this stuff. Both old and new Toshibas do have this stuff. My point was that Toshiba did a whole new design and saved money this way. Blu-ray could and should totally redesign and simplify their players to reduce cost AND add the hardware that was missing before.

Toshiba redesigned to simplify and save money. Blu-ray may have to redesign to simplify, save money, AND add hardware functionality.

Your post raises a great question, however. How was Toshiba able to redesign so effectively unless the generation two design was in the works for a long time, even before the generation one players came out? That would be an interesting fact to confirm.
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post #115 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by los seres View Post

US$299 HD DVD players unlikely this year


Amazon.com says:

Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD Player

List Price: $399.99
Price: $325.88 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $74.11 (19%)

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post #116 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:05 AM
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Ok, so let's assume there will be some kind of cheap, Asian hidef DVD player in the next year. I can understand why Sony would push for Chinese BD - the more players they sell, the more movies they sell. But what's the motivation for Toshiba to push for cheapo HD DVD players? Broadcom makes money, Chinese manufacturer makes money, parts suppliers make money, HD DVD studios make money, laser maker makes money. How does Toshiba win? Is it just the licensing cost? Is licensing that big and owed to only Toshiba? How does it compare to Toshiba's player sales that are lost to the cheap players? I know the answers are probably not known at this point but I'm having trouble seeing what's in it for Toshiba to go the Chinese route.
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post #117 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by eganov View Post

Ok, so let's assume there will be some kind of cheap, Asian hidef DVD player in the next year. I can understand why Sony would push for Chinese BD - the more players they sell, the more movies they sell. But what's the motivation for Toshiba to push for cheapo HD DVD players? Broadcom makes money, Chinese manufacturer makes money, parts suppliers make money, HD DVD studios make money, laser maker makes money. How does Toshiba win? Is it just the licensing cost? Is licensing that big and owed to only Toshiba? How does it compare to Toshiba's player sales that are lost to the cheap players? I know the answers are probably not known at this point but I'm having trouble seeing what's in it for Toshiba to go the Chinese route.

Toshiba already makes licensing fees for DVD players. They will make licensing fees for all HD DVD players made. It is a lot easier to make money by collecting fees than it is to make money by assembling, shipping, and servicing great volumes of complicated hardware. Microsoft got very rich without making and shipping hardware. Microsoft will make money on Windows CE for the new Chinese players.

Let me edit to add: Toshiba probably is making very little profit on the A2. In that sense, they might make more money on fees from each HD DVD player made by another manufacturer than they make from profits on each A2.
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post #118 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BiffD View Post

Amazon.com says:

Toshiba HD-A2 HD-DVD Player

List Price: $399.99
Price: $325.88 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. Details
You Save: $74.11 (19%)


Please read the article next time!
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the shortage of PUHs renders it almost impossible to minimize the production costs to below US$299 this year, the sources noted.

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Other industry sources summed it up by saying any HD DVD player selling for US$299 this you would be priced below production costs.

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post #119 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

As far as I know, the new Samsung doesn't have any of this stuff. Both old and new Toshibas do have this stuff. My point was that Toshiba did a whole new design and saved money this way. Blu-ray could and should totally redesign and simplify their players to reduce cost AND add the hardware that was missing before.

Toshiba redesigned to simplify and save money. Blu-ray may have to redesign to simplify, save money, AND add hardware functionality.

Your post raises a great question, however. How was Toshiba able to redesign so effectively unless the generation two design was in the works for a long time, even before the generation one players came out? That would be an interesting fact to confirm.

samsung didn't do a whole new design. it may look like that from the outside but, the fundamental "architiecture" is just a simplified version of the original.

another analogy.... take a city and add a new recreation park. the existing parking and highway infrastructure (memory and busses) might not be able to handle the traffic.

you may have to redo all the engineering of the relationships in the original configuration. that is a lot more complicated then simplifyting the existing design and pumping out an all new more efficient motherboard, etc.

in my view toshiba didn't do a redesign of the sort that bd players need. what did they add that increased the bus bandwidth and memory requirements?
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post #120 of 1657 Old 05-07-2007, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by webphilosopher View Post

Toshiba already makes licensing fees for DVD players.

So what's the licensing fee, due Toshiba, per player? OK, so maybe it's significant for Toshiba. What then is the motivation for other HD DVD player manufacturers to enter the market if the Chinese are on board early? Remember back in the old days of DVD, the brand names were on board early because there was one format and little threat from Chinese players. I understand the consumer motivation for wanting these cheap Chinese players but I'm interested in going down the path of what's in it for the suppliers - that may lead one to view Sony's actions, and their prospects for success, differently.
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