HD DVD gets 1080p 24fps output thread. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1258 Old 06-08-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

Well, that isn't going to help much. I did just call them and spoke to a very pleasant young man named "Andrew" who told me Toshiba players WILL NEVER be updated to output 1080/24p because there was no reason to do that. He says there is no reason because the video is recorded at 60 frames on the disc. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

Bummer... Sounds like you're trapped in time, surrounded by evil, and low on gas.
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post #182 of 1258 Old 06-08-2007, 12:50 PM
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But seriously, folks, I'm thinking that the reason the players always convert to 1080i is that is at 30 frames/s, and the DVD is recorded at 24 frames/s. It's rather close, so the judder is at a low frequency, 6 Hz.
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post #183 of 1258 Old 06-09-2007, 12:36 PM
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changed thread title to reflect that this upgrade is coming and not here yet.

Just enjoy HD in whatever form you can (Sat, Cable, D-VHS, OTA, HD DVD, or BD).
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post #184 of 1258 Old 06-09-2007, 02:03 PM
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Can someone please link me to a thread, or explain the difference between 24 & 60 fps. I know it's frames per second. But beyond that, I am clueless on how it affects picture quality. I don't have an HD-DVD player, yet. But I am probably going to get the XA2. I did just buy an Epson Powerlite 1080, and the instructions say it can operate at 24 or 60 fps. So what does this whole 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 mean to me, using this projector? I would really appreciate the info. Thanks in advance!
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post #185 of 1258 Old 06-09-2007, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eulogytool View Post

Can someone please link me to a thread, or explain the difference between 24 & 60 fps. I know it's frames per second. But beyond that, I am clueless on how it affects picture quality. I don't have an HD-DVD player, yet. But I am probably going to get the XA2. I did just buy an Epson Powerlite 1080, and the instructions say it can operate at 24 or 60 fps. So what does this whole 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 mean to me, using this projector? I would really appreciate the info. Thanks in advance!

Not a thread, but it might be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

I couldn't tell from the Epson website, does it actually project with a 24Hz (or a multiple thereof) refresh, or does it simply accept a native 1080p24 signal?
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post #186 of 1258 Old 06-09-2007, 02:38 PM
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Thanks for the link. The video compatibility is: 1080p/60/50/24 So since my projector supports both, does that mean I shouldn't worry about the loss of picture quality, due to the XA2 only passing 1080p/60 and not 1080/24 right now? Or am I missing something? Sorry for my ignorance on the subject..
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post #187 of 1258 Old 06-10-2007, 03:04 AM
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This article from Secrets of the Home theatre has been posted before but it deserves repostion since it really explains 1080P and 1080/24 very well. See part III for 1080/24.



http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...07-part-1.html
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post #188 of 1258 Old 06-10-2007, 08:13 AM
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Thanks! Thats very technical, but I'm sure I can understand it after a few reads.
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post #189 of 1258 Old 06-10-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eulogytool View Post

Can someone please link me to a thread, or explain the difference between 24 & 60 fps. I know it's frames per second. But beyond that, I am clueless on how it affects picture quality. I don't have an HD-DVD player, yet. But I am probably going to get the XA2. I did just buy an Epson Powerlite 1080, and the instructions say it can operate at 24 or 60 fps. So what does this whole 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 mean to me, using this projector? I would really appreciate the info. Thanks in advance!

There is another thread on AVS Forum discussing a particularly nasty torture test on Mission Impossible 3, start of chapter 8, that seems to pick up the differences in players that pull 1080p24 directly off the disc and those that process through an interlaced stage (1080i60).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8&page=1&pp=30
If you work your way through that thread, you might get some idea of one reason people are so concerned about 24p: it avoids nasty artifacts that arise from interlacing-deinterlacing. That is an issue internal to the player processing.

A second reason is that if you output 24p and your display can accept it and display in multiple of 24 fps you will have a picture that is smoother when there is motion, especially pans. However, even if your display accepts 24p input but displays at 60p you will still avoid the kinds of artifacts discussed in the other thread.

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post #190 of 1258 Old 06-10-2007, 05:53 PM
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Okay, after reading all this info, I have a better understanding of it. Hopefully the XA2 will get the 1080p/24 update soon. Thanks again!
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post #191 of 1258 Old 06-11-2007, 12:45 AM
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Is it known yet if this upcoming firmware update will include 24p decoding? My display does not accept 1080p/24 input, so I'm curious if this update will eliminate the intermediary 60i decoding for all displays, or only for 24p output.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #192 of 1258 Old 06-11-2007, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

... I am working on correcting that and getting us another update on when we should see the upgrade. So stand by, more updated correct information to follow...

-Robert

Any news here?

Thanks.
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post #193 of 1258 Old 06-13-2007, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesns69 View Post

...The next update is scheduled to be released within the next two weeks....

1 week gone, can anyone confirm this quote above? Are we really expecting 1080p/24 by next week? Robert? Anyone?
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post #194 of 1258 Old 06-13-2007, 10:37 PM
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Come on Toshiba... don't make me order BR versions of my movies.
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post #195 of 1258 Old 06-15-2007, 02:48 AM
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Robert or anyone else with any info, any news on an upgrade that will allow streaming of DD+ and True HD from the HDMI 1.3 output to a 1.3 receiver? The rumour is in Sept. with a DTS-HD upgrade and 24P. That sounds a little too good to be true. My XA2 is sending DD+ and True HD to my new Onkyo 805 multichannel PCM. Just Curious thanks.
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post #196 of 1258 Old 06-17-2007, 04:56 AM
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Hi there

Just trying to get something clear in my head about the processing that the XA2 does. I know that to provide 1080p/60 output it interlaces then deinterlaces again, I'm just not sure at which stage it does this!!

The way I think it does this is that it reads 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD disc. It then processes this to 1080i/60. Then finally it deinterlaces this to 1080p/60.

If this is correct, then for comparison the PS3 when outputting 1080p/60, would read 1080p/24 from the Blu-Ray, then simply convert this to 1080p/60, without any interlacing/deinterlacing. Post the most recent update, it can simply read 1080p/24 and output this directly to the display.

The reason I'm asking is that I am interested in gaining 1080p/24 from HD-DVD, and Toshiba will (eventually) provide this functionality for the XA2 and A20 via a firmware update. If what I have written above is correct, then I'm thinking that post-update they will simply read 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD and pass this straight to the display, just like the PS3 is doing now.

The other possibility that I can think of is that the XA2 is reading 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD, and immediately converting this to 1080i/24, then converting this to 1080i/60, then deinterlacing to 1080p/60. To me this would be less preferable because post-update it would likely read 1080p/24 from the disc and immediately convert to 1080i/24, then deinterlace to 1080p/24. This would be less preferable to me as I feel that the least amount of processing is likely to preserve the optimum picture quality.

Does anybody know how the XA2 is performing this operation at present?

Cheers
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post #197 of 1258 Old 06-17-2007, 05:45 AM
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The A20 DOES NOT do 24p, Stuart.
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post #198 of 1258 Old 06-17-2007, 06:37 AM
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My understanding was that the XA2 and A20 were to benefit from a firmware update to then be able to output 1080p/24? I know that the A2 will not be able to output this, ever.
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post #199 of 1258 Old 06-17-2007, 07:07 AM
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stuart,

My mistake about the A20 outputting 1080p24. It appears not to.

As to future firmware upgrades to facilitate 1080p24, I think its a gamble that I wouldn't be willing to take. Once they release it, sure I might buy one of these units, but not until then.

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post #200 of 1258 Old 06-17-2007, 07:37 AM
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Even without 1080P24 ouptput the XA2 is definitely worth it. Too many good HD movies out to pass on a player from either format.

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post #201 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 09:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuartbrown21 View Post

Hi there

Just trying to get something clear in my head about the processing that the XA2 does. I know that to provide 1080p/60 output it interlaces then deinterlaces again, I'm just not sure at which stage it does this!!

The way I think it does this is that it reads 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD disc. It then processes this to 1080i/60. Then finally it deinterlaces this to 1080p/60.

If this is correct, then for comparison the PS3 when outputting 1080p/60, would read 1080p/24 from the Blu-Ray, then simply convert this to 1080p/60, without any interlacing/deinterlacing. Post the most recent update, it can simply read 1080p/24 and output this directly to the display.

The reason I'm asking is that I am interested in gaining 1080p/24 from HD-DVD, and Toshiba will (eventually) provide this functionality for the XA2 and A20 via a firmware update. If what I have written above is correct, then I'm thinking that post-update they will simply read 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD and pass this straight to the display, just like the PS3 is doing now.

The other possibility that I can think of is that the XA2 is reading 1080p/24 from the HD-DVD, and immediately converting this to 1080i/24, then converting this to 1080i/60, then deinterlacing to 1080p/60. To me this would be less preferable because post-update it would likely read 1080p/24 from the disc and immediately convert to 1080i/24, then deinterlace to 1080p/24. This would be less preferable to me as I feel that the least amount of processing is likely to preserve the optimum picture quality.

Does anybody know how the XA2 is performing this operation at present?

Cheers

I don't really know what the XA2 does internally when reading an HDDVD but since an HDDVD is encoded using 60i timing and replaces missing fields with repeat field flags, it wouldn't be too hard to make a good guess.
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post #202 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul nyc View Post

The A20 DOES NOT do 24p, Stuart.

Neither does the XA2, yet. I'm pretty sure I asked about the A20 earlier in this thread and was told the A20 will also get 24p via a firmware update. Sure would be nice and I don't know why it wouldn't be possible from a hardware point of view since in many ways 24p requires less processing (as I understand it).

On a slightly different note, does anyone here know of a good resource for determining if your display not only can accept 24p but does the "right thing" with it? By that I mean actually displaying it at 24 Hz or a multiple of 24, not converting it internally to 30 or 60 Hz.

Bradley

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post #203 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly33 View Post

1 week gone, can anyone confirm this quote above? Are we really expecting 1080p/24 by next week? Robert? Anyone?

Straight from Toshiba Europe: 1080p/24 and HDMI 1.3 audio pass-thru will be enabled by a firmware update currently scheduled for end of September. (Hey, my 2000th post! )

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post #204 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 12:00 PM
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Congratulations! (on your 2000th post that is)
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post #205 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Straight from Toshiba Europe: 1080p/24 and HDMI 1.3 audio pass-thru will be enabled by a firmware update currently scheduled for end of September. (Hey, my 2000th post! )

Congrats! (I still have a looong way to go)

Two questions:
1. Do you happen to have a link to that Toshiba Europe info?
2. Quote: "HDMI 1.3 audio pass-thru". Would this mean that they will be passing D-TrueHD and DTS-HD-MA still encoded, in stead of outputting them as decoded L-PCM?
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post #206 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 02:34 PM
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Toshiba is telling some people that the HD XA2 1080p24 processing will be direct for film based sources, without internal processing to and from 1080i/p60. PiP and other 1080p60 processing will be converted to 1080p24 from its native 1080p60 spec on the fly using the Silicon Optix REON HQV video processor.

I have no idea how 1080p24 could/would be done with the HD A20. I know it is possible for the HD XA2. I do not know when the HD XA2 firmware update enabling this would be released though I think in Sep in Denver at CEDIA would be a very very good bet.

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post #207 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 05:01 PM
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Not true, at least not so far... Although 1080i/60 is one of the standards supported by HD DVD, so far as far as I know all the releases are of film based material, and are encoded in 1080p/24.

Kris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Morton View Post

I don't really know what the XA2 does internally when reading an HDDVD but since an HDDVD is encoded using 60i timing and replaces missing fields with repeat field flags, it wouldn't be too hard to make a good guess.

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post #208 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.berger View Post

Not true, at least not so far... Although 1080i/60 is one of the standards supported by HD DVD, so far as far as I know all the releases are of film based material, and are encoded in 1080p/24.

Kris

However, not the menus, etc...

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post #209 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 05:33 PM
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Just like BD titles most are 1080P24 on the disc. But there are a handful of titles in both formats that has 1080i on the disc. The HDNet titles and a few others.

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post #210 of 1258 Old 06-18-2007, 08:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.berger View Post

Not true, at least not so far... Although 1080i/60 is one of the standards supported by HD DVD, so far as far as I know all the releases are of film based material, and are encoded in 1080p/24.

Kris

So, this information is wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD#...isc_comparison

Can you provide a link supporting what you are saying?
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