HD DVD gets 1080p 24fps output thread. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1258 Old 05-09-2007, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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According to this French site, the May firmware update should include the 24p feature.
If true, the US equivalent XA2 should get it at the same time.
Too bad my Ruby wont't benefit from it...
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post #2 of 1258 Old 05-09-2007, 10:27 PM
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Great just in time for the new 57 inch 1080p/120hz LCD I will be buying about that time http://www.**************.com/product/28461.html
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post #3 of 1258 Old 05-09-2007, 11:28 PM
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Wish I spoke French. Any other updates listed there that you know of?
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post #4 of 1258 Old 05-10-2007, 07:04 AM
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Ready by the end of the month? Nice.
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post #5 of 1258 Old 05-10-2007, 07:38 AM
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If this is true I'll be picking up a new XA2 at the end of the month.

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post #6 of 1258 Old 05-10-2007, 08:48 AM
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All the owners of reader HD-DVD l´attendaient, it arrives finally, the update allowing platinums of living room to leave a signal in 24p. For recall, the films in HD-DVD as well qu´en Blu-Ray are encodés of 24 images per seconds (24p) but leave the readers into 60 Hz for a d´affichage question of the no-claims bonus (which them are in 60 Hz). The fact d´afficher of the 24 images per seconds in 60 Hz causes what l´on calls an effect of judder which makes the fluidity much worse than of the Stake or the original 24p. The update should be available towards the end of this month, for the happiness of all the compatible owners of diffusers 24p which will profit then d´un perfect marriage.

google robo translation

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post #7 of 1258 Old 05-10-2007, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
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AltaVista Babel Fish does slightly better (?!) :

Quote:


All the owners of reader HD-DVD awaited it, it arrives finally, the update allowing platinums of living room to leave a signal in 24p. For recall, the films in HD-DVD as well as in Blu-Ray are encodés of 24 images per seconds (24p) but leave the readers into 60 Hz for a question of posting of the no-claims bonus (which them are in 60 Hz). The fact of posting of the 24 images per seconds in 60 Hz causes what one calls an effect of judder which makes the fluidity much worse than of the Stake or the original 24p. The update should be available towards the end of this month, for the happiness of all the compatible owners of diffusers 24p which will benefit then from a perfect marriage.

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post #8 of 1258 Old 05-11-2007, 05:30 AM
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What is more of interest to me is if the XA2 can be updated to XE1 firmware. I want to play R4 PAL disks on my XA2.

Has anyone tried this??

Graham
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post #9 of 1258 Old 05-11-2007, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Johnson View Post

What is more of interest to me is if the XA2 can be updated to XE1 firmware. I want to play R4 PAL disks on my XA2.

Has anyone tried this??


don't go there, a guy tried this with a samsung bd player and it was nonfunctional after this... i know different product, still i would not risk it.

tosh will release all f/w updates at roughly the same time.

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post #10 of 1258 Old 05-11-2007, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Johnson View Post

What is more of interest to me is if the XA2 can be updated to XE1 firmware. I want to play R4 PAL disks on my XA2.

Has anyone tried this??

I would not do it either, PAL decoding has likely hardware implications and from that point of view I am not sure that an XA2 and a XE1 are 100.00% identical, especially if you have one of the early XA2.
What you could do is replace your XA2 with a XE1, but you would have to wait for a region-free version of the firmware to play SD DVDs from the US (Region 1) on it, as well as any region 4 ones (HD-DVD is a non issue, for lack of region coding).
And we are still waiting for that firmware, although it is supposed "to come soon"...
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post #11 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 12:02 AM
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So what we need is a service manual on both machines so I can validate their being the same or not.

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post #12 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 02:55 AM
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Awesome!

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Check out these new Lighted Cup Holders:
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post #13 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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The author of this thread intends for it to be used to disclose, explain and discuss all of the details of how the native 1080p 24fps is passed through the 1080p HD DVD players to 24 Hz displays and how the signal is used and other aspects and attributes of the signal's replication to the final display. For example the use of 5:5 pull down, other frame rate conversion techniques and further if the signal employs frame insertion technology and more...

So the floor is open to ask questions about how A20's and XA2's successfully interpret the native disc video quality and exacting spec's and their importance.

BTW, here's a French article about Toshiba's 24 Hz firmware upgrade

-Robert
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post #14 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 04:29 PM
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Just one smiley for the "vaporware FUDers" :

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post #15 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 06:26 PM
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http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

Google translated

How does that site confirm 24p output?

Tyler Pruitt - Pro Calibrator - BionicAV
Technical Support - SpectraCal

THX Certified - Video Calibration

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post #16 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

Google translated

How does that site confirm 24p output?

Article says that the update should be available at the end of the month for 1080p players.
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post #17 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 10:04 PM
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This is both terrible and stupid news, who would ever care about this stupid feature....Just Kidding :-)
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post #18 of 1258 Old 05-12-2007, 10:28 PM
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Quick question, I know its out of place. But does the XBR3 support 24hz output via HDMI? I cant seem to find this anywhere.
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post #19 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 12:30 AM
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I hope this means both the HD-XE1 and HD-EP10 aswell.

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post #20 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

The author of this thread intends for it to be used to disclose, explain and discuss all of the details of how the native 1080p 24fps is passed through the 1080p HD DVD players to 24 Hz displays and how the signal is used and other aspects and attributes of the signal's replication to the final display. For example the use of 5:5 pull down, other frame rate conversion techniques and further if the signal employs frame insertion technology and more...

So the floor is open to ask questions about how A20's and XA2's successfully interpret the native disc video quality and exacting spec's and their importance.

BTW, here's a French article about Toshiba's 24 Hz firmware upgrade

-Robert

OK, I'll bite: How do the compatible machines deal with passing the native 24P off the disc? Is it pulled up to 60i then back down to 24p? Also, how do secondary streams with different frame rates (say 60i) behave? Finally, is the A2 left out of this upgrade?

Thanks!

-Steve
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post #21 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 07:23 AM
 
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Finally, is the A2 left out of this upgrade?

The A2 was never planned for this update. It doesn't have the silicone.
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post #22 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

The A2 was never planned for this update. It doesn't have the silicone.

Believe me, I appreciate a nice rack, but not on my disc players.

I understand the A2 does not have the additional processing chips, hence my questions above. If the up-then-down conversion is happening, you need the Reon etc... if they are able to pass the native bitstream without pullup in the first place, that might suggest other designs would be capable of it as well.

-Steve
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post #23 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

OK, I'll bite: How do the compatible machines deal with passing the native 24P off the disc? Is it pulled up to 60i then back down to 24p? Also, how do secondary streams with different frame rates (say 60i) behave? Finally, is the A2 left out of this upgrade?

Thanks!

Steve, from what I have been told The A20 and XA2 will pass the native 1080 p 24fps directly off the disc and out the HDMI. Since the firmware will permit 24fps and or 60fps.

When playing a native 24fps disc to get to 60fps (for PIP and other HDi applications) the player will do a frame rate conversion of the 60fps PIP video to 24fps to match the refresh rate of the 24fps film. The player will have no trouble handling either frame rate internally and the player's entire output will be either 24fps (or 60fps for native video discs) so displays will not have any trouble syncing.

No interlacing or de-interlacing processing will occur. When the user selects PIP the player will take the 60fps video and do a frame rate conversion to 24fps. Toshiba understands that the PIP video conversion may slightly effect the PIP image quality, but considering the available options it seems to be an excellent choice.

This information may not be 100% accurate as it's what I remember from my conversation a few months ago when I was discussing the process of 24 Hz upgrade with one of my most respected contacts, Toshiba's senior manager of HD DVD software development.

-Robert
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post #24 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 10:22 AM
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So this would mean that within the next 30 days, we should be able to have judder-free HD DVD film reproduction when coupling an XA2 with a JVC RS-1.....?



Of course, the $64,000 questions is: Why would this have first been announced on a French website......? What is the real confidence level surrounding the release date?
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post #25 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Steve, from what I have been told The A20 and XA2 will pass the native 1080 p 24fps directly off the disc and out the HDMI. Since the firmware will permit 24fps and or 60fps.

When playing a native 24fps disc to get to 60fps (for PIP and other HDi applications) the player will do a frame rate conversion of the 60fps PIP video to 24fps to match the refresh rate of the 24fps film. The player will have no trouble handling either frame rate internally and the player's entire output will be either 24fps (or 60fps for native video discs) so displays will not have any trouble syncing.

No interlacing or de-interlacing processing will occur. When the user selects PIP the player will take the 60fps video and do a frame rate conversion to 24fps. Toshiba understands that the PIP video conversion may slightly effect the PIP image quality, but considering the available options it seems to be an excellent choice.

This information may not be 100% accurate as it's what I remember from my conversation a few months ago when I was discussing the process of 24 Hz upgrade with one of my most respected contacts, Toshiba's senior manager of HD DVD software development.

-Robert

Dear Robert,

first of all thank you very much for all your attention regarding this issue over the past few months. You know I was pushing really hard for this feature to be implemented like this and I really appreciate all the information you have provided as well as your kind "lobbying" at Toshiba.

Thank you.

2 questions:

- Would you mind going back to your Toshiba contacts and give us final and firm confirmation that this feature is indeed implemented as you suggested above?

- Can you confirm the hinted release date of this new firmware by end of this month?

Thank you again. This is huge news and a big step forward for HD-DVD as a enthusiast format in my opinion.
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post #26 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

Steve, from what I have been told The A20 and XA2 will pass the native 1080 p 24fps directly off the disc and out the HDMI. Since the firmware will permit 24fps and or 60fps.

When playing a native 24fps disc to get to 60fps (for PIP and other HDi applications) the player will do a frame rate conversion of the 60fps PIP video to 24fps to match the refresh rate of the 24fps film. The player will have no trouble handling either frame rate internally and the player's entire output will be either 24fps (or 60fps for native video discs) so displays will not have any trouble syncing.

No interlacing or de-interlacing processing will occur. When the user selects PIP the player will take the 60fps video and do a frame rate conversion to 24fps. Toshiba understands that the PIP video conversion may slightly effect the PIP image quality, but considering the available options it seems to be an excellent choice.

This information may not be 100% accurate as it's what I remember from my conversation a few months ago when I was discussing the process of 24 Hz upgrade with one of my most respected contacts, Toshiba's senior manager of HD DVD software development.

-Robert

Robert, thanks for the prompt answers and working hard to get us this info.

I'll assume that the A2 is a likely no-go then, as although the Reon wouldn't be needed to pass the 24p directly off the disc, it's likely what is being used for the PiP frame decimation/repeating that would occur for non-framerate-matched streams?

-Steve
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post #27 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:


So this would mean that within the next 30 days, we should be able to have judder-free HD DVD film reproduction when coupling an XA2 with a JVC RS-1.....?

A word of caution here. I suggest those that are anticipating this feature that have not yet either seen 1080/24p or compared it to 1080/60p try to temper your enthusiasm. I have a Sony Pearl projector which, for those that don't know, not only accepts a 24Hz signal, but also refreshes at an even multiple of 24, in this case 96Hz, which is necessary to exact any benefit from 24Hz output. I have also had a Pioneer, a Sony, and most recently, the LG combo hooked up to the Pearl to test and evaluate 24Hz playback. In the case of the LG, I have tested 24Hz with both Blu-ray and HD DVD.

My opinion of this feature is that it is only marginally beneficial. While 24Hz playback from HD DVD and Blu-ray is very slightly smoother than, for instance, 1080/60p from the XA2, it is a subtle difference at best, and can only be noticed on particular camera motion (slow horizontal pans). Much of the time, there is no visible difference at all. The important point to remember is 24 fps does NOT provide perfectly smooth pans, no matter what the refresh rate. It just isn't a high enough frame rate for that.

This is not to say I don't welcome Toshiba working to offer this feature to HD DVD owners. Every bit of image quality improvement should be the design goal of both formats. More and more displays are being designed to take advantage of 24Hz playback, so it will become a more important selling feature for HD DVD. However, folks should understand that the actually visible improvement is not that great.
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post #28 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 12:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

So this would mean that within the next 30 days, we should be able to have judder-free HD DVD film reproduction when coupling an XA2 with a JVC RS-1.....?



Of course, the $64,000 questions is: Why would this have first been announced on a French website......? What is the real confidence level surrounding the release date?

To your first point, yes, I am 100% certain we will have the 24fps upgrade, not sure of the exact date.

Different Toshiba management/countries have different cultures and as a general rule TACP is very tight lipped so I am not surprised to see a European division leak upcoming news before TACP ofically announces the upgrade.

-Robert
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post #29 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

A word of caution here. I suggest those that are anticipating this feature that have not yet either seen 1080/24p or compared it to 1080/60p try to temper your enthusiasm. I have a Sony Pearl projector which, for those that don't know, not only accepts a 24Hz signal, but also refreshes at an even multiple of 24, in this case 96Hz, which is necessary to exact any benefit from 24Hz output. I have also had a Pioneer, a Sony, and most recently, the LG combo hooked up to the Pearl to test and evaluate 24Hz playback. In the case of the LG, I have tested 24Hz with both Blu-ray and HD DVD.

My opinion of this feature is that it is only marginally beneficial. While 24Hz playback from HD DVD and Blu-ray is very slightly smoother than, for instance, 1080/60p from the XA2, it is a subtle difference at best, and can only be noticed on particular camera motion (slow horizontal pans). Much of the time, there is no visible difference at all. The important point to remember is 24 fps does NOT provide perfectly smooth pans, no matter what the refresh rate. It just isn't a high enough frame rate for that.

This is not to say I don't welcome Toshiba working to offer this feature to HD DVD owners. Every bit of image quality improvement should be the design goal of both formats. More and more displays are being designed to take advantage of 24Hz playback, so it will become a more important selling feature for HD DVD. However, folks should understand that the actually visible improvement is not that great.

Robert, very good post and all true. However, keep in mind that a lot of technical details go into producing the final motion video on our screens, like frame insertions technology as well as other technologies, like frame rate conversion to get to 96 or 120 Hz which serve to create the final output. These underlying technologies can make a significant difference to the final image. This is just one more reason I wanted to start this thread as we can all learn and become more educated in making our HT equipment decisions.

Sorry to say I do not know much about these various video production protocols and was hoping for more experienced members to chime in on these subjects and if required I can follow-up with specialists to get clarification.

-Robert
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post #30 of 1258 Old 05-13-2007, 01:00 PM
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Even if 24P would be marginal improvment. I think people in this level of hometheater wants even those minor improvments. Im one of them. (im also want hair&dirt simulator in my player...)

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