XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 455 Old 10-27-2007, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Wasn't setting only the front speakers to Large identified as an issue? I seem to remember that it was.

I guess it is. The audio section to this player has many "issues".

I have no plans to buy full-range speakers for my surround channels.

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post #272 of 455 Old 10-27-2007, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Wasn't setting only the front speakers to Large identified as an issue? I seem to remember that it was.

I did find a slight issue with this setting combination. With the center and surrounds set to small but the L/R fronts set to large, the combined LFE/sub level was off by just over 1 dB in relation to the other channels. Not a really big deal, as you should be able to calibrate that out with any fuss (and it's a small enough difference that it's almost negligible), but it's still not quite right.
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post #273 of 455 Old 10-27-2007, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

I did find a slight issue with this setting combination. With the center and surrounds set to small but the L/R fronts set to large, the combined LFE/sub level was off by just over 1 dB in relation to the other channels. Not a really big deal, as you should be able to calibrate that out with any fuss (and it's a small enough difference that it's almost negligible), but it's still not quite right.

Thanks for the reminder, Mauney.

Mark
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post #274 of 455 Old 10-28-2007, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

I did find a slight issue with this setting combination. With the center and surrounds set to small but the L/R fronts set to large, the combined LFE/sub level was off by just over 1 dB in relation to the other channels. Not a really big deal, as you should be able to calibrate that out with any fuss (and it's a small enough difference that it's almost negligible), but it's still not quite right.

In my setup, when I used this combination of settings, the bass level was certainly not just off by 1 db. It was gone. Completely and utterly gone, and no amount of calibration could bring it back.

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post #275 of 455 Old 10-30-2007, 12:27 AM
 
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No problems here with the XA2 and the 2.5 update. I took the test tones (I had to wear ear protection) from the player, checked the spl meter and set them all to 85db (best I could do) and applied +10 to all except the sub. Set the sub to 0 and leave your sub volume alone (leave it at THX settings) Sounds very familiar to the setup of my receivers test tones only louder and more difficult to do. I had to set all speakers to large and the crossover to 80hz. So if you have THX bi-amps, full range speakers everywhere, and separates, this setup is the most correct setup method IMO. It is most close to the Air Studios equalization. Adjust the volume of your receiver as needed. Adjust your equalizer if you have one (I don't for analog in) that you can use. Enjoy.

- Will edit this later if I need to.
Edit: Turned off the THX setting on the sub and turned the variable volume to maximum.
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post #276 of 455 Old 10-30-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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It sounds better and I observe it to sound correct.
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post #277 of 455 Old 10-30-2007, 04:14 AM
 
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An update would be nice I agree.

Anyone know if the Pioneer 770W 7.1 HDMI AVR Can input HDMI audio and output both from it's amps and the preouts at the same time? That would be a simple solution for me. I have someone interested in my current one. The picture looks very good. I will just go someplace else and ask if it's to much trouble.

Edit: Oh I guess that doesn't work also.
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post #278 of 455 Old 10-30-2007, 12:42 PM
 
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I read through here a second time. I was to tired last night/earlier this morning. When I set my speakers on my receiver to THX they all remain small. That's unusual. It then locks me out of speaker size settings except for the rear speakers I think. I set the digital out to PCM. I set the HDMI to down-mix for whatever reason maybe just wishful thinking. I get sound from my optical still that way. I set the Toshiba XA2 (2.5) Bass management to have large speakers. I subtracted -10 from the normal levels for my speakers which is a 85db pink noise on the AX2. I left the sub at 0. I set the crossover to 120HZ. Now the LFE and bass is hitting harder than with the optical. Yes I know that needs to be switched back.

I am still confused bout the crossover. Does that need to be set to 80HZ or 120HZ? I don't get any speech out of the sub when it is set to 120HZ.

This sounds like it could work for HDMI as well? Which receiver do I need? This one could go on the dock if another one works with HDMI for 7.1 and the analog outs.

Edit: I meant I subtracted -12 (as much as I could) not -10 sorry about that. This is the same way it works with the optical only I don't have to subtract as much.
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post #279 of 455 Old 10-30-2007, 01:20 PM
 
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Receiver options are Marantz, Denon, Pioneer. I will go check out that area of the forum. Thanks for the help here. Nice thread.
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post #280 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 04:14 PM
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If I want my XA2 to pass audio via S/PDIF, and it's an HD codec like TrueHD, isn't it being downmixed to 1.5 mbs DTS? If so, why does my receiver display "Dolby Digital"?

Thanks.
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post #281 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

If I want my XA2 to pass audio via S/PDIF, and it's an HD codec like TrueHD, isn't it being downmixed to 1.5 mbs DTS? If so, why does my receiver display "Dolby Digital"?

Thanks.

The XA2 doesn't convert to DTS like the A2 does with the optical out.
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post #282 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himey View Post

The XA2 doesn't convert to DTS like the A2 does with the optical out.

Really? That's a surprise. So it's just 640 kbs DD?
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post #283 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

Really? That's a surprise. So it's just 640 kbs DD?

I think it is 640 not positive. Using the analogs (or hdmi) is a must with the XA2.
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post #284 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by himey View Post

I think it is 640 not positive. Using the analogs (or hdmi) is a must with the XA2.

Yea, that's what I use for HD DVD, I was just curious and wanted to A/B.
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post #285 of 455 Old 11-05-2007, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

Really? That's a surprise. So it's just 640 kbs DD?

OT for this thread since if you are using S/PDIF then you should be doing any Bass Management in your AVR/Pre-Pro. This thread was about using analog 5.1 outputs on the XA2.

For a HD DVD title, the XA2 decodes, mixes and re-encodes to legacy 5.1 chan 640 kbps DD for S/PDIF output if a DD+ or TrueHD track is selected.

It decodes, mixes and re-encodes to legacy 5.1 chan 1.5 Mbps dts for S/PDIF output if a dts or PCM track is selected.
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post #286 of 455 Old 11-09-2007, 06:18 PM
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I am doing bass management in my XA2 with analog outs. I have SPDIF set to PCM and HDMI set to AUTO.

This works fine to enjoy the latest codecs off HD DVD material. However, when I play any SD material, I find that I get better AQ by switching SPDIF to BITSTREAM and letting my AVR do the decoding and equalizing.

Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon, or follow this practice? Thanks.
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post #287 of 455 Old 11-10-2007, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

I am doing bass management in my XA2 with analog outs. I have SPDIF set to PCM and HDMI set to AUTO.

This works fine to enjoy the latest codecs off HD DVD material. However, when I play any SD material, I find that I get better AQ by switching SPDIF to BITSTREAM and letting my AVR do the decoding and equalizing.

Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon, or follow this practice? Thanks.

This depends on what your AVR is doing with the signal over SPDIF.


I have the Tosh XE1 and Denon 3805, I find I prefer using the SPDIF connection even for HD DVD playback simply because this allows me to make use of the Room EQ and Pro Logic IIx in the 3805 with the downconverted DD640kbps track, and for me this out performs the benefits of lossless or 1.5Mbps DD+ in my situation.

Now if I had an HDMI receiver(ie 3806, etc) then I'd have the benefits of both See there's always a reason to upgrade

cheers
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post #288 of 455 Old 11-10-2007, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

I have the Tosh XE1 and Denon 3805, I find I prefer using the SPDIF connection even for HD DVD playback simply because this allows me to make use of the Room EQ and Pro Logic IIx in the 3805 with the downconverted DD640kbps track, and for me this out performs the benefits of lossless or 1.5Mbps DD+ in my situation.

MACCA - I too have a 3805. I haven't considered HD DVD playback using SPDIF, because, IMHO, a down-converted DD 640 Kbps track just seems so thin compared to the advanced HD codecs. Am I mistaken? (Of course if the XA2 transcoded to 1.5 Mbps dts like the A2........I digress.)

I do find with SD material, there is an appreciable step-up in AQ when I switch to SPDIF. (I really noticed this with a Tom Petty concert DVD....wow.)

I love the Room EQ feature on the 3805, although I'm not clear what benefit is derrived by sending a DD 5.1 signal through Pro Logic IIx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

Now if I had an HDMI receiver(ie 3806, etc) then I'd have the benefits of both See there's always a reason to upgrade

cheers

I hear you. I have begun to seriously look at the 3808CI....that is one nice machine...Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital+ Decoding, dts-HD Master Audio Decoding.....
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post #289 of 455 Old 11-10-2007, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

... I have begun to seriously look at the 3808CI....that is one nice machine...Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital+ Decoding, dts-HD Master Audio Decoding.....

I got me one of those, and are very happy with it. All the high res formats and 4x HDMI 1.3 inputs to start with as well

Any word on when the XA2 will be able to send DTS MA as bitstream?
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post #290 of 455 Old 11-10-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

I got me one of those, and are very happy with it. All the high res formats and 4x HDMI 1.3 inputs to start with as well

Not to thread-jack, but I've been reading the thread over there, and it seems like the 3808 is one complicated piece of machinery requiring a lot of tweaking to get it right. What's your experience been?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

Any word on when the XA2 will be able to send DTS MA as bitstream?

The next upgrade (apparently imminent) will address HBR, 24fps directly off the disc, and lip sync fixed. I read on another thread that HBR has to do with handling "the new codecs". That may portend the advent of passing dts-HD Master Audio
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post #291 of 455 Old 11-11-2007, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

Not to thread-jack, but I've been reading the thread over there, and it seems like the 3808 is one complicated piece of machinery requiring a lot of tweaking to get it right. What's your experience been?

You're right - it IS a quite advanced piece, but give it some time when doing the settings and you'll be pleased. The manual sucks though, so you'll get better help in the forum thread...
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post #292 of 455 Old 11-12-2007, 07:14 PM
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Firmware 2.7 for the XA2 with all else being equal has increased subwoofer levels tremendously through Multi-channel analog outputs. I have not performed any measures but I'd guess that the 10dB increase once required at the reciever is no longer a necessity when activating the BM. Apart from increased bass levels, when equalizied by ear there appears to be much better quality as well which I felt was seriously lacking prior to. Very very early impressions but thought pass them along.
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post #293 of 455 Old 11-12-2007, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Firmware 2.7 for the XA2 with all else being equal has increased subwoofer levels tremendously through Multi-channel analog outputs. I have not performed any measures but I'd guess that the 10dB increase once required at the reciever is no longer a necessity when activating the BM. Apart from increased bass levels, when equalizied by ear there appears to be much better quality as well which I felt was seriously lacking prior to. Very very early impressions but thought pass them along.

Thanks Hughman. Just upgraded to 2.7 and op-tested Batman Begins in TrueHD. I didn't notice a big difference in the bass, but who knows?

I assume the other settings remain:

1) Digital Out SPDIF set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI set to AUTO
3) Speakers to SMALL

?
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post #294 of 455 Old 11-12-2007, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Firmware 2.7 for the XA2 with all else being equal has increased subwoofer levels tremendously through Multi-channel analog outputs. I have not performed any measures but I'd guess that the 10dB increase once required at the reciever is no longer a necessity when activating the BM. Apart from increased bass levels, when equalizied by ear there appears to be much better quality as well which I felt was seriously lacking prior to. Very very early impressions but thought pass them along.

If the 10db boost isn't required at the receiver then they have stuffed up the xa2, it is in the dolby spec that the boost be done in the AVR not the player.
I hope this isn't the case.

Hakka.
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post #295 of 455 Old 11-12-2007, 08:37 PM
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Hello buckNaked,

I actually have the SPDIF set to bitstream and the HDMi to PCM, that how I get PCM out to show on the info tab for two channel. All speakers set to small.

The movie I first threw on was Serenity which has a dolby+ track. No question the subwoofer output was far more than what I've previously experienced on the same HD-dvd. Another member confirmed the same experience with another DVD with a D+ track within the firmware thread. However, I just had on Dreamgirls and I notice no difference in bass and this is also a D+ track. It's obviouly still very early but I'd guess that a all music video has far less subwoofer activity and this may be where the difference lies, at least in my system. I'm sure all this will be proven otherwise within the next few days, but again the subwoofer activity in Serenity has definitely increased.
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post #296 of 455 Old 11-12-2007, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

Thanks Hughman. Just upgraded to 2.7 and op-tested Batman Begins in TrueHD. I didn't notice a big difference in the bass, but who knows?

I assume the other settings remain:

1) Digital Out SPDIF set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI set to AUTO
3) Speakers to SMALL

?

I checked the USA and Canada site for firmware update and they only list 2.5. Where do you get the 2.7?

Bill
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post #297 of 455 Old 11-13-2007, 04:41 AM
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Thanks for the update!
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post #298 of 455 Old 11-13-2007, 04:56 AM
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Perhaps you need to have the speakers mixed to hear the 2.7 update difference. I know its not correct but I have the XA2 set up with small centers, others large, and boosted sub volume to compensate because I just liked the sound better, sorry. After the 2.7 update I immediately notice more base and "better" sound when playing Transformers. I haven't had a chance to check/calibrate speaker levels, but there seems to be something different in the sound. Maybe Tosh fixed/improved base management?

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post #299 of 455 Old 11-13-2007, 06:18 AM
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Based on the subwoofer phase test on DVE HD bass management has not changed with this update. PCM SPDIF setting still provides better results.
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post #300 of 455 Old 11-13-2007, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post

Perhaps you need to have the speakers mixed to hear the 2.7 update difference. I know its not correct but I have the XA2 set up with small centers, others large, and boosted sub volume to compensate because I just liked the sound better, sorry. After the 2.7 update I immediately notice more base and "better" sound when playing Transformers. I haven't had a chance to check/calibrate speaker levels, but there seems to be something different in the sound. Maybe Tosh fixed/improved base management?

It's possible that they changed something in the handling of mixed small/large configurations. In my earlier testing, bass management worked fine with all speakers set to the same 'size', but the levels weren't quite right when you had a mix of small and large. Others have reported that DRC was enabled with a mix of sizes (I haven't confirmed this).

If Toshiba fixed the implementation of mixed settings, it quite possible that you heard a significant difference due to both a sub level shift and the removal of DRC. A DVE test done on a system with all speaker sizes set the same would not detect this change in behavior.

If I get time this weekend, I'll run some RTA scans and see if they've made any perceptible changes.
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