XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 455 Old 12-11-2007, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

Ya ok changed that. Don't know why I did that but still only the slightest better. Still no where near the same.

Player is set to 0 now with a +10 boost on the NAD size. My sub's vol is 3/4 way up also and crossed over where it should be along with the crossover at 80 on the player.

You should not be running two different crossovers - they conflict with each other.

Again, if you are going to use bass management in the XA2, you need to run 15 dB of boost, not 10 dB.
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post #362 of 455 Old 12-11-2007, 06:31 PM
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how do I get that 15 boost. my reciever only allows a +10 boost? you can't do a + boost on the xa2 only - or to 0? also only one BM is going on. the reciever is all at large and the player at small. is this correct?

thanks alot!

jimi
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post #363 of 455 Old 12-11-2007, 06:33 PM
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my sub only allows vol control and crossover control of 40-150. do i have something wrong on the sub. it's a tannoy 850 about 4 yrs old.
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post #364 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 04:26 AM
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Ok. Here's where I am. I actually think I got it. I have a +10 boost on the NAD along with the proper settings on the player. My Bass while in TrueHD is deff deeper and tighter than with DD through the digital outs with the player doing the decoding.

Ok here are my questions to make sure things are ok.

1. When I use the dgital out instead of the alalog's so the reciever is doing the decoding I noticed that when I pull up the player's display it says DD+ and if i switch it to TrueHD it says that, but it's actually only DD due to the bandwidth on the digital out. Is this correct. I know it is but I thought the display on the player would reflect that?

2. When I watch a SD DVD should my bass still be the same as with HD? I had cars in and with the digital outs everything was a lot stronger. Should I have the same punch with either the analog out and digital outs or will it be diff.

Thanks alot all!
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post #365 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

No. If you have the speakers set to 'SMALL', you need to boost the LFE/sub by +15 db, not +10 db.

Yes, thank you for correcting me

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post #366 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

2. When I watch a SD DVD should my bass still be the same as with HD? I had cars in and with the digital outs everything was a lot stronger. Should I have the same punch with either the analog out and digital outs or will it be diff.

Thanks alot all!

That will depend on whether or not your receiver allows for separate digital and analog settings for your subwoofer. If it does then calibrate your sub separately for each input. If your sub setting is global then you will end up getting more bass via digital.

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post #367 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

That will depend on whether or not your receiver allows for separate digital and analog settings for your subwoofer. If it does then calibrate your sub separately for each input. If your sub setting is global then you will end up getting more bass via digital.

What??? I'm sorry, but this response makes no sense, on several levels.

The 'amount' of LFE is determined by the levels you set during calibration, and has absolutely nothing to do with the transmission method. You can calibrate your system for any source, and the XA2 has its own level settings; the fact that you may have global-only settings on the AVR does NOT mean that you can't get the levels balanced properly - it just makes it a bit more tedious.

The 'quality' of the final signal is determined by the type of DACs and the bit depth and sample rate.

1) If you use the analogs from the XA2, you are getting the full bit depth and rate from the lossless codecs, and you have a set of very high-quality DACs.

2) If you use the SPDIF digital, you are getting down-res'd digital, so you do NOT get the full bit depth and rate of the lossless codecs. You are also now using the DACs in the AVR, which may or may not be as good as those in the XA2.

3) If you can use bitstream decoding with HDMI into an AVR that can decode TrueHD, you might be better off with this than with the analogs, but only if the DACs in the AVR are better than those in the XA2.
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post #368 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

What??? I'm sorry, but this response makes no sense, on several levels.

The 'amount' of LFE is determined by the levels you set during calibration, and has absolutely nothing to do with the transmission method. You can calibrate your system for any source, and the XA2 has its own level settings; the fact that you may have global-only settings on the AVR does NOT mean that you can't get the levels balanced properly - it just makes it a bit more tedious.

The 'quality' of the final signal is determined by the type of DACs and the bit depth and sample rate.

1) If you use the analogs from the XA2, you are getting the full bit depth and rate from the lossless codecs, and you have a set of very high-quality DACs.

2) If you use the SPDIF digital, you are getting down-res'd digital, so you do NOT get the full bit depth and rate of the lossless codecs. You are also now using the DACs in the AVR, which may or may not be as good as those in the XA2.

3) If you can use bitstream decoding with HDMI into an AVR that can decode TrueHD, you might be better off with this than with the analogs, but only if the DACs in the AVR are better than those in the XA2.

Points 1,2, and 3 are all true, but how does that help if the reciever only has one global subwoofer setting and jimim has multiple sources using both analog and digital? If he adjusts the sub via the global receiver setting and/or the sub amp, it will affect all sources. I must be missing something here

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post #369 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Points 1,2, and 3 are all true, but how does that help if the reciever only has one global subwoofer setting and jimim has multiple sources using both analog and digital? If he adjusts the sub via the global receiver setting and/or the sub amp, it will affect all sources. I must be missing something here

1) You do step 1 calibration by adjusting the AVR settings using calibrated tones running to the AVR via a digital connection (or the AVRs internal tones, if they are reliable; some are, some aren't). If you are using an external digital source device, all of its levels and distances should be set to '0', and all speakers should be set to 'ON' and 'LARGE'. This should set the AVR levels properly, using the internal DACs as a reference point. Once you have performed this step, DO NOT changes the settings in the AVR again. If you need to use bass management, you will have to enable it in the AVR during this calibration sequence; distances will also be set here.

2) You do step 2 calibration for EACH analog device by adjusting either: (A) the input-specific settings, if available (best choice) or (B) the individual channel levels at the source device (OK choice). Each analog device will have to be calibrated individually; this can be a pain, but it works. The specific settings will be determined based on whether or not your AVR can apply LFE boost to this specific input, whether it will apply delay for distance compensation, and whether or not it will apply level settings to the analog inputs. This is why you MUST perform Step 1 before you do Step 2; it allows the settings in the XA2 (or other source device) to take into account the 'global' settings in the AVR.

3) Step 3 is to go back and make certain that the digitally-connected devices other than the one you used in step 1 (if you used an external source) are correct. Start with each device configured as described in Step 1 - let the AVR do any processing necessary. Once you have it done correctly in step 1, there's no need to re-invent the wheel. You may need to trim the levels, but they SHOULD be correct at defaults.

Does this help?
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post #370 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

my sub only allows vol control and crossover control of 40-150. do i have something wrong on the sub. it's a tannoy 850 about 4 yrs old.

Set your sub's crossover to the highest frequency (150 Hz) to get its effect out of the way. The HD DVD player's crossover (when using the 5.1 analog outputs to your NAD's 5.1 analog input) or the NAD's crossover (when using a digital S/PDIF input) are the pertinent ones.
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post #371 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

1) You do step 1 calibration by adjusting the AVR settings using calibrated tones running to the AVR via a digital connection (or the AVRs internal tones, if they are reliable; some are, some aren't). If you are using an external digital source device, all of its levels and distances should be set to '0', and all speakers should be set to 'ON' and 'LARGE'. This should set the AVR levels properly, using the internal DACs as a reference point. Once you have performed this step, DO NOT changes the settings in the AVR again. If you need to use bass management, you will have to enable it in the AVR during this calibration sequence; distances will also be set here.

Done and check.

Quote:


2) You do step 2 calibration for EACH analog device by adjusting either: (A) the input-specific settings, if available (best choice) or (B) the individual channel levels at the source device (OK choice).

I guess this was my only confusion. Assuming option A is not available, I was under the impression that adjusting the source (in this case XA2) was the last resort and that it was preferred to either adjust the receiver and/or sub amp.

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Each analog device will have to be calibrated individually; this can be a pain, but it works. The specific settings will be determined based on whether or not your AVR can apply LFE boost to this specific input, whether it will apply delay for distance compensation, and whether or not it will apply level settings to the analog inputs. This is why you MUST perform Step 1 before you do Step 2; it allows the settings in the XA2 (or other source device) to take into account the 'global' settings in the AVR.

Done and check.

Quote:


3) Step 3 is to go back and make certain that the digitally-connected devices other than the one you used in step 1 (if you used an external source) are correct. Start with each device configured as described in Step 1 - let the AVR do any processing necessary. Once you have it done correctly in step 1, there's no need to re-invent the wheel. You may need to trim the levels, but they SHOULD be correct at defaults.

Done and check, but any further trimmng of levels in step 3 will affect the analog calibration from step 2.

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Does this help?

Yes

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post #372 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Done and check, but any further trimmng of levels in step 3 will affect the analog calibration from step 2.

Often times it will not, for many AVRs that only do a simple pass-thru of the 5.1 analog inputs.

Such common (mid-Fi) AVRs have no 5.1 channel A/D conversion which enables DSP manipulation of the various channel levels, distance settings, etc. So the calibration tweaks for a analog stereo or digital S/PDIF input do not affect the 5.1 analog input at all.
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post #373 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Often times it will not, for many AVRs that only do a simple pass-thru of the 5.1 analog inputs.

Such common (mid-Fi) AVRs have no 5.1 channel A/D conversion which enables DSP manipulation of the various channel levels, distance settings, etc. So the calibration tweaks for a analog stereo or digital S/PDIF input do not affect the 5.1 analog input at all.

Just to be clear, I was assuming that the receiver had global channel level adjustments which would, in that case, affect both digital and 5.1 analog. I did not realize this is/was that uncommon.

If the receiver's channel level settings do not apply to the 5.1 analog inputs, then I agree that any further tweeking/adjustments of channel levels will have no affect on the 5.1 analog calibration.

Have I got this right now or have I made a total mess of things and earned a banishment from AVS?

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post #374 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

What??? I'm sorry, but this response makes no sense, on several levels.

The 'amount' of LFE is determined by the levels you set during calibration, and has absolutely nothing to do with the transmission method. You can calibrate your system for any source, and the XA2 has its own level settings; the fact that you may have global-only settings on the AVR does NOT mean that you can't get the levels balanced properly - it just makes it a bit more tedious.

The 'quality' of the final signal is determined by the type of DACs and the bit depth and sample rate.

1) If you use the analogs from the XA2, you are getting the full bit depth and rate from the lossless codecs, and you have a set of very high-quality DACs.

2) If you use the SPDIF digital, you are getting down-res'd digital, so you do NOT get the full bit depth and rate of the lossless codecs. You are also now using the DACs in the AVR, which may or may not be as good as those in the XA2.

3) If you can use bitstream decoding with HDMI into an AVR that can decode TrueHD, you might be better off with this than with the analogs, but only if the DACs in the AVR are better than those in the XA2.


My NAD doesn't have HDMI so this isn't an issue. I am going to use the analog's for TrueHD at this time. My question is what to do with SD DVD. Should I go back to the digital outs and go through all the changes required in the player? Also if I do this do I have to bother making any changes to the 5.1 settings in the player due to the fact that I'm now Bitstreaming to the reciever to do the decoding?

Thanks again. I think I'm almost there.
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post #375 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by emptychair View Post

Done and check, but any further trimmng of levels in step 3 will affect the analog calibration from step 2.

Not if you do it in the source device.
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post #376 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

My NAD doesn't have HDMI so this isn't an issue. I am going to use the analog's for TrueHD at this time. My question is what to do with SD DVD. Should I go back to the digital outs and go through all the changes required in the player? Also if I do this do I have to bother making any changes to the 5.1 settings in the player due to the fact that I'm now Bitstreaming to the reciever to do the decoding?

Just use the 5.1s for SD DVD, as well. You may not be getting any extra benefit from using them for SD DVDs, but the only thing you lose is some of the digital processing that the AVR can do (which goes against the grain of high-quality reproduction, anyway).

And, yes, if you were to be going back and forth between analog 5.1 and digital (SPDIF) connections, you would probably have to continually make adjustments when you switch - not worth the effort, IMHO.
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post #377 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Not if you do it in the source device.

Aren't you getting tired of correcting me all of the time? I had not even thought about that...although I'm not sure if any of my other sources allow for channel level adjustments. Will be checking tonight...

Thanks again

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post #378 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Just use the 5.1s for SD DVD, as well. You may not be getting any extra benefit from using them for SD DVDs, but the only thing you lose is some of the digital processing that the AVR can do (which goes against the grain of high-quality reproduction, anyway).

And, yes, if you were to be going back and forth between analog 5.1 and digital (SPDIF) connections, you would probably have to continually make adjustments when you switch - not worth the effort, IMHO.

So let the player to the decoding, the DAC, and then send it over via analog?
Or send it over bitstream via the analog outs?

thanks again
jim

cause I was sending it over decoded last night with cars and like i said the sound was no where near the punch if i made the changes and sent it out bitstream via the digital outs!
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post #379 of 455 Old 12-12-2007, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

So let the player to the decoding, the DAC, and then send it over via analog?
Or send it over bitstream via the analog outs?

thanks again
jim

cause I was sending it over decoded last night with cars and like i said the sound was no where near the punch if i made the changes and sent it out bitstream via the digital outs!

....OK..... (deep breath)

Bitstream can only be done via HDMI. If you're using SPDIF (digital outs) it's down-res'd.

If you were lacking 'punch' with the analogs, it was due to a calibration issue - guaranteed.

Just out of curiosity, which audio option did you select on Cars?
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post #380 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

....OK..... (deep breath)

Bitstream can only be done via HDMI. If you're using SPDIF (digital outs) it's down-res'd.

If you were lacking 'punch' with the analogs, it was due to a calibration issue - guaranteed.

Just out of curiosity, which audio option did you select on Cars?



Hi, After reading through this whole forum, as a newbie, I'm thorougly confused. I currently have a Westinghouse 37" 1080p HDTV and a toshiba HD-XA2. I realize that the toshiba has 5.1 surround sound analog outputs in the back. As I don't have a reciever and wanted to get some surround sound through my currently owned Logitech 5.1 PC speakers, I got a ddts-100 Creative decoder instead of a reciever. Now my question is, Can I still view the video through HDMI and hear the audio via the analog-decoder-5.1 speakers, without a any low in sound quality? How would my DVD player know that it must channel the sound out the 5.1 anolog outputs (to the decorder -> speakers) instead of via HDMI (directly to the TV speakers)??

Any help would be appreciated??
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post #381 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

....OK..... (deep breath)

Bitstream can only be done via HDMI. If you're using SPDIF (digital outs) it's down-res'd.

If you were lacking 'punch' with the analogs, it was due to a calibration issue - guaranteed.

Just out of curiosity, which audio option did you select on Cars?

This is just weird. I know what to do I just can't seem to get it to work.

I know you have to use HDMI for bitstream with HD and it's downed with digital outs. I was talking about SD version of cars set to DD.

And I had cars set to DD for the decoding weather it was set to decode in the player or in the NAD
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post #382 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by despat View Post

I currently have a Westinghouse 37" 1080p HDTV and a toshiba HD-XA2. [...].I got a ddts-100 Creative decoder instead of a reciever.

OK - good info.

Quote:


Can I still view the video through HDMI and hear the audio via the analog-decoder-5.1 speakers, without a any low in sound quality?

Yes. In fact, it is the best way to run the system if you don't have a receiver that can decode bistreamed advanced codecs from HDMI 1.3.

Quote:


How would my DVD player know that it must channel the sound out the 5.1 anolog outputs (to the decorder -> speakers) instead of via HDMI (directly to the TV speakers)??

It doesn't need to know - the 5.1 analog outputs are always active.
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post #383 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 05:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

This is just weird. I know what to do I just can't seem to get it to work.

I know you have to use HDMI for bitstream with HD and it's downed with digital outs. I was talking about SD version of cars set to DD.

And I had cars set to DD for the decoding weather it was set to decode in the player or in the NAD

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying WRT 'decoding' in the player or receiver. Either way, it's getting decoded in the player, then re-encoded for the SPDIF output. The difference is that with the analogs, it doesn't get re-encoded, since it's being DAC'd in the player.

So, are you saying it's better with the 5.1 analogs, or better with the SPDIF
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post #384 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying WRT 'decoding' in the player or receiver. Either way, it's getting decoded in the player, then re-encoded for the SPDIF output. The difference is that with the analogs, it doesn't get re-encoded, since it's being DAC'd in the player.


I never knew that. So you are saying when you pass a bitstream feed to a reciever to decode it to say DD that the player decodes it sends out that bistream and then the player does it again? I thought that was the whole point of bitstream? to send out raw data and let the reciever do the decoding?

Or are you talking just digital and analog signals? meaning the player decoded it to DD and if you go bitstream through the digital outs it gets switched from digital to analog in the player again and if you use the 5.1 well then obviously there is no more work cause you can't send bitstream out over 5.1 like you said before.

does this make sence i hope what I'm trying to say?

So, are you saying it's better with the 5.1 analogs, or better with the SPDIF

just talking sound, the digital out id deff better! deff when we talk about SD dvd only! HD is ok now through the analogs! so that is taken care of but the SD aspect isn't yet.

This actually might not be a problem in a week. my buddy is giving me a onkyo 875 to try out to see what i think of it. he said he should have it for me in a few days, but i rwally don't want to use the recievers decoded for dd and dts cause i plan on getting a new NAD cause it's what i always had and they don't have decoders in them but the unit i am looking at carries audio over hdmi or the analogs if i want.

thanks again for all the help i really appreciate your time and effort
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post #385 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 09:50 AM
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Mauney,

As a side note I just got 300 on HD. I never saw it cause we were finishing up our new house and didn't get out to the movies much last year due to the fact my dad and I contracted the house so he had me tied up for 13 months!

Anyway, the sound is amazing on this movie. Deff got the analog thing worked out! If you can help me out with the SD DVD issue now when you have time that would be great like I said in the post above!

Thanks!
jim
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post #386 of 455 Old 12-13-2007, 11:04 PM
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OK - good info.



Yes. In fact, it is the best way to run the system if you don't have a receiver that can decode bistreamed advanced codecs from HDMI 1.3.



It doesn't need to know - the 5.1 analog outputs are always active.



Now I got a hold of this diagram showing the DDTS-100:

http://www.nordichardware.com/skrive...00-diagram.jpg

Wouldn't it be better to use the optical or coaxial cable to the DVD-player or would it still be best to use the 6 analog outputs from the DVD player connect to the 6 analog input on the top part of the DDTS-100??
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post #387 of 455 Old 12-14-2007, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Wouldn't it be better to use the optical or coaxial cable to the DVD-player or would it still be best to use the 6 analog outputs from the DVD player connect to the 6 analog input on the top part of the DDTS-100??

No. The output of the digital coax/optical is down-res'd DD. You can only get the lossless codecs through HDMI and/or the analog 5.1 connections.
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post #388 of 455 Old 12-14-2007, 07:47 AM
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No. The output of the digital coax/optical is down-res'd DD. You can only get the lossless codecs through HDMI and/or the analog 5.1 connections.

Thanks mauenyM
So I guess the next questoin is what cables do I use to connect my DVD player with 6 analog outputs to the 6 analog inputs on the DDTS-100. Do I need the audio cables with a red and white connector on each end (both ends same). What's it called so I can get it on ebay? Sorry for being so illiterate in these matters.

Is this what I need: Please let me know. I found these on ebay

Please see ebay Item number: 180192872916



Thanks
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post #389 of 455 Old 12-18-2007, 07:45 AM
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Ok, I've read the posts and "fixes" to the analog audio issues. Currently run 5.1 analog from my Sony BD S-1 to my Krell processor (more PCM options) and use coax with my new HD-XA-2. The sound wasn't bad with my old HD-XA-1, given that it converted everything to DTS 1.5 MBPS. Now I'm faced with the decision to live with the coax connection DD 640 MBPS or spend an extra $500.00 on a Zektor switch and cables. Has anyone compared the two connections and is the added bump worth it fort he extra $$$$.

Thanks;

Just an update. Installed the Zektor HDS 4.1 last night, running the Xa-2 and and BD S-1 from the switch through my Krell's analog 5.1. Also updated to 2.7. All processing done by the player. Changed bitstream on the Xa-2 to PCM, ran my Avia disc and calibrated with my Radio Shack meter. Levels were pretty much dead on at zero, with only one or two adjustments. Bass fluctuated from +1 to +5 above speaker levels, which was enough to satisfy my taste. Ran portions of Superman Returns in TrueHd and Transformers with DD+. Extremely happy with the results over 5.1 analog.
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post #390 of 455 Old 12-18-2007, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by despat View Post

Thanks mauenyM
So I guess the next questoin is what cables do I use to connect my DVD player with 6 analog outputs to the 6 analog inputs on the DDTS-100. Do I need the audio cables with a red and white connector on each end (both ends same). What's it called so I can get it on ebay? Sorry for being so illiterate in these matters.

Is this what I need: Please let me know. I found these on ebay

Please see ebay Item number: 180192872916
Thanks

Yes, RCA cables are what you need. Check out blue jean cables "Multi-channel Audio Cables"

Thanks,
Hansang
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