XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

There are only a handful of receivers that will digitize the multichannel analog input, 99% will just apply volume and level trim on the multichannel analog input.

I'm not sure what others are doing, but some may be running their mains as full range.

I'm not sure if the BM settings in the players do anything for the audio over HDMI.

cheers

MACCA350,
I am a little confused. Are you saying that I should use the XA2 settings for delay and leave all speakers to small?

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post #92 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

I confess to getting confused trying to follow the other thread on this so I am thankful for a new one, is the best way to get the full bass for 2 big floor speakers analog? They have powered subwoofers but I have never used them in a 2 speaker configuration. A couple of Esone 1000's if anyone knows what those are.. is the speaker model.

Yeah BB used to be one of their dealer. If they are powered, and no other stand alone sub is used, then run them small, and connect the line level sub from your receiver to them with a Y splitter, and adjust the volume accordingly.

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post #93 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Yeah BB used to be one of their dealer. If they are powered, and no other stand alone sub is used, then run them small, and connect the line level sub from your receiver to them with a Y splitter, and adjust the volume accordingly.


Ok, so when you say adjust the volume accordingly, my receiver is a Denon 3805, are we talking some sort of bass adjustment like some of the above posts?... sorry but audio can be one of my weaknesses.

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post #94 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

MACCA350,
I am a little confused. Are you saying that I should use the XA2 settings for delay and leave all speakers to small?

If you are using the analogue connections then you will need to use the XA2's BM because the 3803's BM will not affect the EXT.IN.

So if you want the speakers set to small, do it in the XA2.
If you want to set delay, do it in the XA2.
If you want to set the crossover, do it in the XA2.

On EXT.IN the 3803 ONLY does volume control and level trim

cheers
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post #95 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 06:13 PM
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This question may a bit mixed topic, but if I use an optical cable into my denon 3805 can I avoid the y splitter cable for the subwoofers in the Eosone 1000 speakers?

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post #96 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

Ok, so when you say adjust the volume accordingly, my receiver is a Denon 3805, are we talking some sort of bass adjustment like some of the above posts?... sorry but audio can be one of my weaknesses.

No I'm talking about the gain[volume] on the powered sub and the receiver as well. Use a test disc to balance it with all of the channels. Then pop in some music you're familiar with, and see if the bass is blending without being overpowering, or too thin. It's ok to fine tune with ear, after you've done the basic calibration, after all it is you who have to live with the system.

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post #97 of 455 Old 06-08-2007, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtop View Post

This question may a bit mixed topic, but if I use an optical cable into my denon 3805 can I avoid the y splitter cable for the subwoofers in the Eosone 1000 speakers?

No, it has nothing to do with one another. You need a splitter[wich will be plugged into the receiver as well:sub out] because you have 2 powered subs[1 each in the mains], and I assume you want both to produce sound right?

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post #98 of 455 Old 06-09-2007, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

No, it has nothing to do with one another. You need a splitter[wich will be plugged into the receiver as well:sub out] because you have 2 powered subs[1 each in the mains], and I assume you want both to produce sound right?


Yes I want both to produce sound of course, these speakers are 4 foot plus tall and have nice large powered subwoofers, which when fed bass rock.

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post #99 of 455 Old 06-09-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

If you are using the analogue connections then you will need to use the XA2's BM because the 3803's BM will not affect the EXT.IN.

So if you want the speakers set to small, do it in the XA2.
If you want to set delay, do it in the XA2.
If you want to set the crossover, do it in the XA2.

On EXT.IN the 3803 ONLY does volume control and level trim

cheers

MACCA350,
many thanks for the info. I have done it and it still sounds great. I have it still set to PCM out and not bitrate. IS this right?

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post #100 of 455 Old 06-09-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

MACCA350,
many thanks for the info. I have done it and it still sounds great. I have it still set to PCM out and not bitrate. IS this right?

When using the analog 5.1 outputs of the XA2 -- yes, it is best on the XA2 setup to set the SPDIF to PCM so the bass management works correctly. I also (per the manual) set the HDMI to "Downmixed PCM".
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post #101 of 455 Old 06-09-2007, 04:38 PM
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MauneyM, I've given you and this thread an official shout-out:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...ass_Issues/688

Thanks for your work getting to the bottom of this.

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post #102 of 455 Old 06-10-2007, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Josh -

Thanks for the props! I'm just glad we go to the bottom of it, and figured out a solution.
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post #103 of 455 Old 06-10-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Josh -

Thanks for the props! I'm just glad we go to the bottom of it, and figured out a solution.

Well, a temporary workaround, anyway. A solution will be when Toshiba fixes it so that you can leave the SPDIF setting at Bitstream and that won't affect the analog output.

They also still need to work on audio sync issues.

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post #104 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Well, a temporary workaround, anyway. A solution will be when Toshiba fixes it so that you can leave the SPDIF setting at Bitstream and that won't affect the analog output.

They also still need to work on audio sync issues.

Question: I followed all instructions discussed here and found the bass levels not effected by switching the optical output from bitstream to pcm and the same with HDMI settings. I set my preamps (outlaw 990) subwoofer setting to +10db and to 0 on the XA2 analogs settings and I now get 75-80+ on the radio shack meter.
I have firmware version 1.6 installed on the XA2.
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post #105 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 07:44 AM
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Paul,

Guess you missed the part that the fix was for analog out.

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post #106 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Under Firmware v 1.6, Bass Management does work properly in the XA2, but there are a couple of things you need to know if you are going to use BM with the analog outs.

1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL
4) The LFE/Sub channel needs 15 dB of boost, not 10 db. This is to accomodate the additional gain required to handle the summation of the LFE channel and the redirected bass.

The additional 5 dB boost requirement kicks in when the L/R front mains are set to 'SMALL'.

Bass is redirected if you only set the center and surrounds to 'SMALL', but there are some minor level inconsistencies. You can see these in the center channel RTA traces in the other thread. For now, it seems best to simply operate with all of the channels set to LARGE with 10 dB LFE boost, or all set to SMALL with 15 dB LFE boost.

It seems that the SPDIF output setting impacts the analog outputs, and needs to be set to PCM for BM to work. This certainly isn't intuitive, but it has been demonstrated to make a difference.

Need help. I am far from an audiophile but I have done all that is recommended and when doing so my bass doesn't seem to have the same impact as when SPDIF is set to Bitstream.

With the following settings bass seems like its lacking.

Digital out SPDIF to PCM
Digital out HDMI to Auto
Speakers set to small
LFE/SUB Channel +15 for analogs

When only changing Digital out SPDIF to Bitstream, bass returns with force.

I have a Denon 3805 that can add +15 to LFE for the analogs and Infiniti sat. speakers that obviously cannot play low frequencies and an SVS sub to handle
bass.

It seems that for me, setting Digtal out SPDIF to PCM has an adverse affect as
far as bass output is concerned.

BTW, running firmware 1.6.

Any input by the experts greatly appreciated?

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
HD DVD player: Toshiba HD-XA2(2)
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, PS3
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)

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post #107 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmic10 View Post

Need help. I am far from an audiophile but I have done all that is recommended and when doing so my bass doesn't seem to have the same impact as when SPDIF is set to Bitstream.

With the following settings bass seems like its lacking.

Digital out SPDIF to PCM
Digital out HDMI to Auto
Speakers set to small
LFE/SUB Channel +15 for analogs

When only changing Digital out SPDIF to Bitstream, bass returns with force.

I have a Denon 3805 that can add +15 to LFE for the analogs and Infiniti sat. speakers that obviously cannot play low frequencies and an SVS sub to handle
bass.

It seems that for me, setting Digtal out SPDIF to PCM has an adverse affect as
far as bass output is concerned.

How did you have the system set when you calibrated the levels, and what test tones did you use to set them?

Also - I can't stress this enough:

If you change settings, you have to recalibrate your levels. They will NOT stay the same when you make changes to the configuration. Also, you can't use the pink-noise tones from your receiver to set levels for analog inputs and expect the levels to be correct. You must use test tones from a disc.

What you are probably hearing is the LFE level dropping by 5 dB when you enable bass management by setting SPDIF out to PCM. What may not be obvious is that while the LFE level has dropped by 5 dB, you have now added the redirected bass to the signal (assuming you have your speaker sizes set to SMALL). Thus, if you recalibrate your levels, I'd bet you'll be happier with the signal you get when SPDIF is set to PCM.
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post #108 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Paul,

Guess you missed the part that the fix was for analog out.

Hi Jim-- I understand that we are talking about the analog outputs and I have followed all the instructions in this forum.
My point is that on my XA2 the sub level is the same on my sound meter in the 5.1 analog setup if I set the optical to digital bitstream or PCM.....or make changes to the HDMI setup. The sub level is only effected if I change the speaker sizes from small to large in the menu.
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post #109 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Logan View Post

Hi Jim-- I understand that we are talking about the analog outputs and I have followed all the instructions in this forum.
My point is that on my XA2 the sub level is the same on my sound meter in the 5.1 analog setup if I set the optical to digital bitstream or PCM.....or make changes to the HDMI setup. The sub level is only effected if I change the speaker sizes from small to large in the menu.

The LFE level may stay the same when you change from bitstream to PCM, but the bass redirection behavior changes. For bass to be properly redirected, you must set the SPDIF out to PCM. If you are not using bass management, the SPDIF out setting has no effect on the analogs; if you have BM turned on, then it will drop the LFE level by 5 dB.
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post #110 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

The LFE level stays the same when you change from bitstream to PCM, but the bass redirection behavior changes. For bass to be properly redirected, you must set the SPDIF out to PCM. If you are not using bass management, the SPDIF out setting has no effect on the analogs.

Thank you for the explanation!
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post #111 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

How did you have the system set when you calibrated the levels, and what test tones did you use to set them?

Also - I can't stress this enough:

If you change settings, you have to recalibrate your levels. They will NOT stay the same when you make changes to the configuration. Also, you can't use the pink-noise tones from your receiver to set levels for analog inputs and expect the levels to be correct. You must use test tones from a disc.

What you are probably hearing is the LFE level dropping by 5 dB when you enable bass management by setting SPDIF out to PCM. What may not be obvious is that while the LFE level has dropped by 5 dB, you have now added the redirected bass to the signal (assuming you have your speaker sizes set to SMALL). Thus, if you recalibrate your levels, I'd bet you'll be happier with the signal you get when SPDIF is set to PCM.


Thanks for the great info.

I did not re-calibrate after making changes but I will tonight.

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
HD DVD player: Toshiba HD-XA2(2)
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, PS3
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)

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post #112 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

The LFE level may stay the same when you change from bitstream to PCM, but the bass redirection behavior changes. For bass to be properly redirected, you must set the SPDIF out to PCM. If you are not using bass management, the SPDIF out setting has no effect on the analogs; if you have BM turned on, then it will drop the LFE level by 5 dB.

Okay, I didn't realize this. But previously when I set the SPDIF out to PCM, my receiver (Pioneer Elite VSX80-TXV) would not interpret the DD stream correctly. When I set it to Bitstream, my receiver could then process the DD/DTS correctly through the digital input.

So what you're saying is that when using the XA2's analog outputs, PCM needs to be selected in the player. This is going to be a pain having to switch back and forth when playing SD and HD DVDs.

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post #113 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

Okay, I didn't realize this. But previously when I set the SPDIF out to PCM, my receiver (Pioneer Elite VSX80-TXV) would not interpret the DD stream correctly. When I set it to Bitstream, my receiver could then process the DD/DTS correctly through the digital input.

So what you're saying is that when using the XA2's analog outputs, PCM needs to be selected in the player. This is going to be a pain having to switch back and forth when playing SD and HD DVDs.

I'm not sure I understand your concern - what does this have to do with SD vs HD? I use analog for all discs, SD and HD......?
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post #114 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

I'm not sure I understand your concern - what does this have to do with SD vs HD? I use analog for all discs, SD and HD......?

I usually switch to the digital audio output when playing SD DVDs. I've found that SD disc soundtracks have a slightly better (IMHO) sound with the digital output instead of the analog outs.

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post #115 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler358 View Post

I usually switch to the digital audio output when playing SD DVDs. I've found that SD disc soundtracks have a slightly better (IMHO) sound with the digital output instead of the analog outs.

Does your receiver have the ability to separately set levels for the analog inputs? If so, then you'll only have to change one setting in the XA2 menu. Of course, you also have to select TrueHD in the disc's menu. That really bugs me - I don't see why the player can't, by default, select the highest quality encoder on the disc that it supports. Oh, well......
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post #116 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Does your receiver have the ability to separately set levels for the analog inputs?

Only for the analog subwoofer input, and that's either a 0 or +10db setting.

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post #117 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 04:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

I am watching that jim carry movie right now...eternal sunshine or some such title. with the settings as you posted above. with the XO set to 100hz. All distances and db set to zero. Then in my AVR I am -5db in all the mains and +10db in the sub.

The dialog sounds spot on GREAT, and for the first time I am able to watch the movie and not watch the SQ.

This is a great start . For me the BM problem besides throwing off the bangs and booms...it made the dialog sound " all over the place". Now I think Ihave a starting point for setting the levels.

I have decent ($1000) bookshelf 2-way mains and a 15" TC sounds subwoofers that is far from anemic, but also far from flat yet. So for me I like the idea of using BM and will try it out with a few movies that sounded GREAT on my A1 to see where this new BM stands.


Thanks MauneyM for everything you have done and i am sure will continue to do!!

What do you do when listening to SD DVD and HD (cable, sat. or over the air) programming? Do you change your speaker setting back each time? Is there any other option if you can't get the additional 5 db of bass boost? If there is no other way I might set up two macro's in my remote so that with one push of a button I can change speaker settings back and forth.
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post #118 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

What do you do when listening to SD DVD and HD (cable, sat. or over the air) programming? Do you change your speaker setting back each time? Is there any other option if you can't get the additional 5 db of bass boost? If there is no other way I might set up two macro's in my remote so that with one push of a button I can change speaker settings back and forth.

Just use the analogs for SD DVDs as well. As long as you've calibrated your source, you should get the same performance from the analog outs as you would a digital output. As far as your cable goes, I don't see how any of this affects your cable optical out. It has nothing to do with the XA2, why would you have to change anything for your cable/sat box? And for the additional 5 dB boost, if you can't boost this from your receiver, just set all speakers in the XA2 at -5 dB.

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post #119 of 455 Old 06-11-2007, 07:19 PM
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Hi,
Well i changed all my XA2 ( at 1.6 ) to the post.
1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL

I am using a Denon 5700 amp. When I run the toshiba balance test all 5 speakers tone, except the sub. I set all speakers to small. On my denon in ext in mode i raised all the individual channels to 10db, this gets it closer to normal pink noise volume. any ideas ?

When i switch spdif to bitstream DD and DTS light up my sub big time...so I know it works fine.

thanks,
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post #120 of 455 Old 06-12-2007, 01:17 AM
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I dont know much about audio, actually very happy with current audio on xa2, but I want to try this.

So do im yamaha 5960 boost the bass to +10db, and the rest to -5db?
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