XA2 Bass Management Fix confirmed!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:20 PM
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I would like to hear how the 2.0 firmware affects the bass management in the XA2, if at all? Anyone?

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Old 06-28-2007, 05:17 PM
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I hear and "see" no changes. What I mean by "see", is that you still have to set SPIDF to "PCM" to get bass management to work correctly. I updated to 2.0 hoping to see the need to switch the optical output to "PCM" fixed, but it's not.

I have a Denon 3806 receiver, a Denon 2910, and now the Toshiba HD XA2. With my Denon, I like to use optical for SD stuff and the HD discs without TrueHD. With the requirement to switch the output back and forth between "Bitstream" and "PCM", it makes using the analog outs a real pain.
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Old 07-04-2007, 02:51 PM
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I have an older Onkyo TX-DS787 with 7.1 analog inputs, I can set level calibration and distance for all the inputs, but not seperately for the analog inputs. So I guess I need to do it in the XA2, correct? (I am using fw 2.0 as of today)

Am I correct if I set the settings to:
1) Digital Out SPDIF - PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI - AUTO
3) Speakers - SMALL, I also enter the distance from listening position
4) Crossover 80 Hz
5) All speakers except sub are set to -5 db. The sub is set to 0 db

On the Onkyo I have set bass to +10 db (I can only add to +12 db, not +15 db), small speakers and maintained the distance settings as previous.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

Am I correct if I set the settings to:
1) Digital Out SPDIF - PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI - AUTO
3) Speakers - SMALL, I also enter the distance from listening position
4) Crossover 80 Hz
5) All speakers except sub are set to -5 db. The sub is set to 0 db

On the Onkyo I have set bass to +10 db (I can only add to +12 db, not +15 db), small speakers and maintained the distance settings as previous.

That should get you pretty close. You should still calibrate with THX or DVE tones for the fine adjustment, but you're on the right track.

ONe thing you should check, though. Make sure that setting speakers to 'SMALL' in your receiver doesn't enable bass management for the analog inputs. If it does, then you need to set either the receiver or the the XA2 to 'LARGE'. Bass management should only be performed in one place; trying to enable it in two different parts of the signal chain can result in notches in your frequency response, as well as phase distortion.
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

That should get you pretty close. You should still calibrate with THX or DVE tones for the fine adjustment, but you're on the right track.

ONe thing you should check, though. Make sure that setting speakers to 'SMALL' in your receiver doesn't enable bass management for the analog inputs. If it does, then you need to set either the receiver or the the XA2 to 'LARGE'. Bass management should only be performed in one place; trying to enable it in two different parts of the signal chain can result in notches in your frequency response, as well as phase distortion.

Thanks for the quick reply. I wonder though, my speakers ARE small. Should I still enter them as large on either the reciever or XA2 while keeping the other unit as small?

Still, changing the overall bass on the reciever to +10 db will affect all other sources, tv, dvd, blu-ray, xbox. Can I somehow make up for it on the XA2 settings? For instance setting all speakers except sub to -10 and just add +5 db on the reciever?

I can't really shake the feeling that before I did these changes and switched between optical input and analog, I thought the analog TrueHD had more punch than the Dolby Digital + or TrueHD via optical, but now when I switch between TrueHD and DD+ on the analog input on the opening of Batman Begins I dont really feel the same difference in bass and impact. Have I messed up the settings or do the DD+ stand up quite well and works better on analog than optical?
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Old 07-09-2007, 02:45 PM
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hello i have firmware 1.6 right now
i have marantz sr8200 receiver it has 7.1 inputs and settings for it speaker distance, lfe boost management etc...

i tried three things
first toslink in pcm mode in my xa2. didnt do any settings in the xa2 , in my receiver i've putted for the 7.1 analog my distance for my speakers all set to large by the way, and putted 10 db boost for lfe , ran matrix hd revolution in true HD and it was pretty good
bass was comin out of my sub finally!!

second i tried the same as above but didn't put toslink in pcm left it in bitstream
surprising result : the bass was still outputting well in my sub weird cause it was said that you had to put the toslink in pcm to have bass in your sub. oh well

third i compared all of this with using just the coaxial cable with no 7.1 input using Dolby True Hd downsampled to 640kb/s so coaxial digital cable straight from my xa2 to my marantz sr8200. Well i did back and forth listening and even if coaxial cable was dowsampled to 640kb/s with True HD , it sounded just a little better than my two first method above.

So can anyone give me a thouth on this matter that my third combination was a bit better than the two first ones

like i said i didn't touche any settings in the xa2 since i have large speakers set to every channel and that my Marantz SR8200 has all the settings for distance and lfe management for digital and 7.1 input analog setting.
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Old 07-09-2007, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuj View Post

hello i have firmware 1.6 right now
i have marantz sr8200 receiver it has 7.1 inputs and settings for it speaker distance, lfe boost management etc...

i tried three things
first toslink in pcm mode in my xa2. didnt do any settings in the xa2 , in my receiver i've putted for the 7.1 analog my distance for my speakers all set to large by the way, and putted 10 db boost for lfe , ran matrix hd revolution in true HD and it was pretty good
bass was comin out of my sub finally!!

second i tried the same as above but didn't put toslink in pcm left it in bitstream
surprising result : the bass was still outputting well in my sub weird cause it was said that you had to put the toslink in pcm to have bass in your sub. oh well

third i compared all of this with using just the coaxial cable with no 7.1 input using Dolby True Hd downsampled to 640kb/s so coaxial digital cable straight from my xa2 to my marantz sr8200. Well i did back and forth listening and even if coaxial cable was dowsampled to 640kb/s with True HD , it sounded just a little better than my two first method above.

So can anyone give me a thouth on this matter that my third combination was a bit better than the two first ones

like i said i didn't touche any settings in the xa2 since i have large speakers set to every channel and that my Marantz SR8200 has all the settings for distance and lfe management for digital and 7.1 input analog setting.

If you are doing the bass management in the Marantz receiver, then the SPDIF setting will not impact the bass redirection. The SPDIF setting only impacts the bass redirection performed in the XA2, which you are not using.

As for the reason for the third setting sounding a bit better: Di you do a separate speaker level calibration using disc-based tones? If not, you're probably just hearing a more uniform mix from the Marantz.

Under any circumstances, run whatever you think sounds best.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:49 PM
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tanx for your quick reply, i just don't knnow what separate speaker level calibration using disc-based tones is?? is it a software that you have to buy a cd calibration??? for home theatres??? if, so please give me a indication for where can i buy this!
i would be very interested
tanx again for your support MauneyM!!!!
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Old 08-04-2007, 10:56 PM
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I have a HD-XE1 with firmware 1.5, I have ran some tests on the 5.1 analog outs using the spectrum labs waterfall software and there are no bass management issues in my player regardless of the SPDIF setting.

I used DVE with Dolby Digital 5.1 sweeps, the sub preout of my AVR connected to the soundcard input of the laptop. I did the tests with the XE1 via 5.1 analog, and with the Denon DVD2200 via coax to a Denon AVR3803. All results were the same.

One thing I did notice is the crossover on the sub channel is different on the XE1.
Here is a comparison of the XE1 with both 80hz and 100hz crossovers, and the Denon 3803 using 100hz crossover.

Hakka.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:39 AM
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Well, it seems that the bass management issues were with the TrueHD tracks only, so testing would have to be done with the DVE HD DVD side with the TrueHD test tones. I have had a bear of a time calibrating bass levels in comparing the DVE HD DVD TrueHD test tones using the analog outs with the XA2 set to PCM versus these same tones converted to bitstream and using coax out with the XA2 output set to Bitstream. As far as I can tell, this would be the only true "apples to apples" test. Anyone else tried this using only the DVE HD DVD side TrueHD tones???
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Old 08-06-2007, 05:21 PM
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I have the disc on order, will do the same tests in TrueHD when it gets here.
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:25 AM
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Should I enter the speaker distance in the XA2 or in the reciever or both?
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

Should I enter the speaker distance in the XA2 or in the reciever or both?

For most receivers (AVRs), that do not re-digitize the multichannel analog inputs, you just re-enter the same speaker distances that you use in the receiver.

Some of the more expensive AVRs/Pre-Pro's can re-digitize the multichannel analog inputs (Sherwood for example) and do all the normal DSP bass management, distance compensation, etc. It that case it is best just to set the XA2 outputs to LARGE, levels to 0, sub to USE, and distances to 0 -- thereby letting the Pre-Pro do all the audio processing.
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

For most receivers (AVRs), that do not re-digitize the multichannel analog inputs, you just re-enter the same speaker distances that you use in the receiver.

Some of the more expensive AVRs/Pre-Pro's can re-digitize the multichannel analog inputs (Sherwood for example) and do all the normal DSP bass management, distance compensation, etc. It that case it is best just to set the XA2 outputs to LARGE, levels to 0, sub to USE, and distances to 0 -- thereby letting the Pre-Pro do all the audio processing.

Thanks. I have an older Onkyo TX-DS787 with 7.1 analog inputs, I can set level calibration and distance for all the inputs, but not seperately for the analog inputs. I dont know wether it can re-digitize the multichannel analog inputs, but since the analog input options are limited, I'd guess "no"?

The bass sound a bit "boomy" and feel located to the subwoofer (using Atlandic 4.5 PBM sub and Atlantic System 4.5 speakers), I guess this can be a product of using analog 5.1 (playing the opening battle of Revenge Of The Sith on my regular DVD via optical has less bass rumble but also less detectable than playing the same sequence in the XA2). I have tried the Lo-pass control on the sub, but it makes no detectable difference.
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Old 08-16-2007, 05:48 PM
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After reading through this thread it seems that the best option is to just turn up the gain directly on my sub, rather than mess with the receiver or xa2?
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valmont74 View Post

Should I enter the speaker distance in the XA2 or in the receiver or both?


Time alignment should be the last function being performed in the DSP chain, so it should reside only with whichever performs the bass management duty, but never use it in both equipments.

sent via Morse code...........

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Old 08-16-2007, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pezlion View Post

After reading through this thread it seems that the best option is to just turn up the gain directly on my sub, rather than mess with the receiver or xa2?

Not a good idea. If your receiver doesn't handle LFE correctly there is not much you can do, but replace it with one that it does.

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Old 08-16-2007, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Not a good idea. If your receiver doesn't handle LFE correctly there is not much you can do, but replace it with one that it does.

I beg to differ.

At least some receivers can handle it when the sub get boosted at the sub so the analog multichannel will calibrate. You just then afterwards set the receiver to a different input than the analog multichannel and have it do its automatic calibration thingy (YPAO for my Yamaha RX-V2500). This works for me and when I use a S/PDIF input (coax or optical Toslink) the sub is still calibrated due to the internal receiver settings when it uses its DSP. YMMV
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:04 AM
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Quote:


Under Firmware v 1.6, Bass Management does work properly in the XA2, but there are a couple of things you need to know if you are going to use BM with the analog outs.

1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL
4) The LFE/Sub channel needs 15 dB of boost, not 10 db. This is to accomodate the additional gain required to handle the summation of the LFE channel and the redirected bass.

The additional 5 dB boost requirement kicks in when the L/R front mains are set to 'SMALL'.

Bass is redirected if you only set the center and surrounds to 'SMALL', but there are some minor level inconsistencies. You can see these in the center channel RTA traces in the other thread. For now, it seems best to simply operate with all of the channels set to LARGE with 10 dB LFE boost, or all set to SMALL with 15 dB LFE boost.

I am sorry if this sounds stupid.
I have the Toshiba player with an Arcam AV 8 pre amp.
So I set all my speakers in the HD DVD player to large. I set the speaker settings to small in the Arcam and set LFE there to +15 db. Is this the way to do it or are the settings mentioned above for the HD DVD player.
Also do I need to do anything with regards to speaker distances in the HD DVD player.

Param.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

OK, I'm starting another thread, as the other one has gotten so long as to be difficult to follow.

Under Firmware v 1.6, Bass Management does work properly in the XA2, but there are a couple of things you need to know if you are going to use BM with the analog outs.

1) Digital Out SPDIF needs to be set to PCM
2) Digital Out HDMI needs to be set to AUTO
3) Set all speakers to SMALL
4) The LFE/Sub channel needs 15 dB of boost, not 10 db. This is to accomodate the additional gain required to handle the summation of the LFE channel and the redirected bass.

The additional 5 dB boost requirement kicks in when the L/R front mains are set to 'SMALL'.

Bass is redirected if you only set the center and surrounds to 'SMALL', but there are some minor level inconsistencies. You can see these in the center channel RTA traces in the other thread. For now, it seems best to simply operate with all of the channels set to LARGE with 10 dB LFE boost, or all set to SMALL with 15 dB LFE boost.

It seems that the SPDIF output setting impacts the analog outputs, and needs to be set to PCM for BM to work. This certainly isn't intuitive, but it has been demonstrated to make a difference.

Thanks are owed to cpcat, cuzzin, and TundrSQ for sticking with it to help clarify this rather odd firmware bug. Thanks also to dstay22, MACCA350 and mlankton for not letting it drop.

I am looking at purchasing an XA2 and have a question about this setup.

From what I can read, the options are basically set all channels to LARGE and boost LFE +10 or set all channels to SMALL and boost LFE +15.

What happens if I wanted my Center, and Rears to be set to SMALL and LFE and Fronts to be set to Large. Can I not do this? Wouldn't setting FR, FL and LFE to large along with C,RR,RL set to small be a standard 5.1 setup?
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post

What happens if I wanted my Center, and Rears to be set to SMALL and LFE and Fronts to be set to Large. Can I not do this? Wouldn't setting FR, FL and LFE to large along with C,RR,RL set to small be a standard 5.1 setup?

You can do this, and it can be calibrated to work properly. If you do, you will need to boost the LFE by roughly 12 dB, and you will also need to boost the rears by about 1 dB, as well. The LFE boost is correct, given the additional headroom requirements, but the rear boost is apparently an error.

Depending on your system, you may or may not have to make these adjustments in the XA2. I would suggest doing a full calibration on your system using a different source, then go back and calibrate with the XA2 as the source; keeping in mind:

> DO NOT change your receiver's calibration settings once the first cal run is complete, or you will mess up the settings for al of your other sources.
> You will probably want to set the LFE boost for the 5.1 inputs to +10 dB, as it will be the closest to the desired level, and will then be the lowest channel.
> If your level meter confirms that the LFE is the weakest signal, you should then use the XA2 level controls to reduce the other channels to match.
> You will probably end up lowering the front/center settings in the XA2 by 2-3 dB, and lowering the rears by 1-2 dB.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

> DO NOT change your receiver's calibration settings once the first cal run is complete, or you will mess up the settings for al of your other sources.

I do not understand your reasoning on this point. Why not redo the receiver calibration for digital and two channel analog inputs after the 6 Channel Direct (analog Multichannel 5.1) mode is calibrated?

Given:
  • 1. A receiver/AVR that does not provide individual channel or sub/LFE channel adjustments - just straight passthru for the 6 Channel Direct selection
  • 2. Using the sub amplifier gain control at the subwoofer to get part of the needed boost
  • 3. Using the HD DVD player for all the other 6 channel analog output adjustments
  • 4. Needing to reduce the receiver/AVR's sub/LFE channel gain (because of the boost in step 2 above) for digital/two channel inputs which use the internal AVR gains under DSP control
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:05 AM
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Assuming that my pre/pro can do proper analog bass management. What would be the easiest way to do this? Would I simply set all speakers to large then adjust the LFE by +10.

Then on my pre/pro adjust accordingly i.e. FR, FL LFE Large with C,RR,RL set to SMALL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

You can do this, and it can be calibrated to work properly. If you do, you will need to boost the LFE by roughly 12 dB, and you will also need to boost the rears by about 1 dB, as well. The LFE boost is correct, given the additional headroom requirements, but the rear boost is apparently an error.

Depending on your system, you may or may not have to make these adjustments in the XA2. I would suggest doing a full calibration on your system using a different source, then go back and calibrate with the XA2 as the source; keeping in mind:

> DO NOT change your receiver's calibration settings once the first cal run is complete, or you will mess up the settings for al of your other sources.
> You will probably want to set the LFE boost for the 5.1 inputs to +10 dB, as it will be the closest to the desired level, and will then be the lowest channel.
> If your level meter confirms that the LFE is the weakest signal, you should then use the XA2 level controls to reduce the other channels to match.
> You will probably end up lowering the front/center settings in the XA2 by 2-3 dB, and lowering the rears by 1-2 dB.

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Old 09-17-2007, 01:09 PM
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Has anyone noticed a difference in the bass output since the 2.5 version upgrade for their XA2?

I am not sure but since I upgraded to 2.5 my bass seems lounder and it just sounds so much, much, much more better. Sounds much more right! Better impact etc.

I wonder if they did anything in the 2.5 upgrade to enhance this some how. Also I have not changed any of my setting from prior to v2.5 upgrade- leave all at default in XA2 - all channels as large, yes to sub, and distances all at 0.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:56 PM
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2.5 has not made any changes to the speaker management controls. The need to leave the SPDIF setting at "PCM" remains.

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Old 09-17-2007, 05:37 PM
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I did some initial tests with this and while setting SPDIF to PCM does seem to affect the bass output on the center channel it does not seem to completely remove it. I turned my subwoofer off (the sub itself not in the player) and used DVE HD and ran the "subwoofer phase" test. With bitstream set I was able to hear sound from my center even at 30htz. With PCM set I was not able to hear anything until 50htz. This is with my ear next to the speaker.

I have all speakers to small and the X-over set to 100. I just switched from an XA1 so I have not adjusted my speaker and sub level yet.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

With PCM set I was not able to hear anything until 50htz. This is with my ear next to the speaker.

The subwoofer crossover is not a brick wall filter. Instead it is a gradual slope -- so hearing freqs below the crossover in a main speaker with the sub turned off is normal.
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Old 09-18-2007, 02:02 PM
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I just found this thread after having problems I could not solve. Basically I have a 4.0 system and want to use the analog outputs of the XA2 to my Denon A7100 pre/decoder.

Over the PCM HDMI link,Denon has told me that the A7100 cannot redirect the discrete PCM center channel to the front L/R channels, so I must use the analog inputs of the A7100. That's were I'm still having problems.

I've nearly read all this thread but I don't think a 4.0 system was mentioned. I have not tried setting the SPDIF to PCM but I will tonight. It's been set to Bitstream up to now and no matter what I do I can't get the center channel redirected into the front L/R mains.

Do you think setting the SPDIF to PCM will cause this redirection of the center to mains?

PS. From what I've read here, it better!

Edit -- Well yes, it works great. Both HDMI and Analog input redirection of the center channel is AOK! Thanks guys for all the info in this thread. Much appreciated. Well, now thinking back to my discussions with Denon and Toshiba tech support, they new nothing and still don't. I wonder if I should be nice and call them to let them know?
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

I do not understand your reasoning on this point. Why not redo the receiver calibration for digital and two channel analog inputs after the 6 Channel Direct (analog Multichannel 5.1) mode is calibrated?

Given:[list][*]1. A receiver/AVR that does not provide individual channel or sub/LFE channel adjustments - just straight passthru for the 6 Channel Direct selection

This is the main reason - not all receivers keep the 5.1 inputs completely separate. Yamahas, for example, allow you to adjust the levels, but not the delay or bass management. Thus, you need to set the 'master' level balance at the receiver first all of the digital and 2-channel sources, then adjust the XA2 to match.

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[*]2. Using the sub amplifier gain control at the subwoofer to get part of the needed boost

OK, if you need to do this, then you might have to re-adjust the sub level, but you wouldn't want or need to change anything else. But - why wouldn't you just adjust the sub output level in the XA2?


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4. Needing to reduce the receiver/AVR's sub/LFE channel gain (because of the boost in step 2 above) for digital/two channel inputs which use the internal AVR gains under DSP control

I would expect that you would have a separate LFE boost for the analog inputs. There is no need for the LFE boost with digital signals, as they are normalized, nor is there a need to LFE boost with 2-channel signals.
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Old 09-20-2007, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

I do not understand your reasoning on this point. Why not redo the receiver calibration for digital and two channel analog inputs after the 6 Channel Direct (analog Multichannel 5.1) mode is calibrated?

I agree with this. Thinking of it another way, "analog direct" inputs often have the least overall adjustment capability and are the most problematic to calibrate. Therefore, if using analog direct inputs, start with calibration there and then readjust the digital inputs as necessary to match.
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