Onkyo DV-HD805 HDDVD Player - Picture and a few Details - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

Either the Toshiba and Onkyo players will effectively overide the Advanced Authored flag in order to output bitsream (simultaneously disabling the merging of advanced authored interactive content) or else the new bitstream feature is useless. I guarantee you the new bitstream feature will NOT be useless -- it will deliver the original advanced audio bitstream to the processor/receiver for decoding.

This is a non-issue.

Agreed. If one needs to hear the HDi commentary audio -- then just use the player's S/PDIF (coax or Toslink) output or the player's analog outputs. No reason to prevent/disallow passing bitstream over the 1.3a HDMI output especially given the benefits of allowing, missing in the HD-XA2 player, dts-HD MA audio or 7.1 codec decode.
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post #92 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 02:39 PM
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I think the best would be if it can decode it in the player as well as send it as bitstream. Then nobody is hung out to dry.
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post #93 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

Agreed. If one needs to hear the HDi commentary audio -- then just use the player's S/PDIF (coax or Toslink) output or the player's analog outputs. No reason to prevent/disallow passing bitstream over the 1.3a HDMI output especially given the benefits of allowing, missing in the HD-XA2 player, dts-HD MA audio or 7.1 codec decode.

As I would think the solution above would be VERY ugly for the format, the best thing would be if TrueHD or MasterHD is selected then the HDi comentary track is disabled, leaving only DD+. If you want to listen to comentary or PIP then trueHD or MasterHD is disabled. At least thats how I would do it, since Im no Tech guy is this possible?

Lets get this disscussion to the right people as this seems the best solution.

Blu ray is the best Blah, blah, blah.
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post #94 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

I think the best would be if it can decode it in the player as well as send it as bitstream. Then nobody is hung out to dry.

But that would make some audiophiles who are forever in search of the original source (soundtrack) being "bit perfect" very unhappy. These types hate any digital volume control or added mixing.
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post #95 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 02:51 PM
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They could even flag to disable DD+ during THD/MAHD playback, some how binding comentary to DD+.

Blu ray is the best Blah, blah, blah.
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post #96 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

Either the Toshiba and Onkyo players will effectively overide the Advanced Authored flag in order to output bitsream (simultaneously disabling the merging of advanced authored interactive content) or else the new bitstream feature is useless. I guarantee you the new bitstream feature will NOT be useless -- it will deliver the original advanced audio bitstream to the processor/receiver for decoding.

This is a non-issue.

I hope you are right. Seems like the people that makes the discs(BLURAY & HDDVD), the receivers(Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer Elite etc.) and the players from several companies never quite got together to talk about this. If the discs can only be decoded in the player right now. Will these same discs be compatible on future players? And IF they do make discs in the future that pass bitstream to a compatible receiver will these discs be compatible with the current BLURAY/HDDVD players? Just a thought.....

Panasonic TC-P50ST60 plasma HD television, Onkyo TX-SR805 and PIONEER ELITE VSX-47TX receivers, Klipsch RB-75(2 pair) and RB-61 bookshelf speakers, Klipsch RSW-10, RSW-12(2), Velodyne HGS-12, HGS-18 subwoofers, PS3 80G, PIONEER DV-525 dvd player, Klipsch RS-42 surrounds, Klipsch RC-52 center channel
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post #97 of 834 Old 08-12-2007, 07:59 PM
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It seems that HD DVD is first again to be the format to support DTS:MA. HD DVD seems to be the first to do everything!

John

Loganed...finally. 6/6/08
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post #98 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 05:55 AM
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Amir has posted this about sending out advanced codec bitstream on HDMI 1.3, yesterday in the insider's thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amir View Post

We have covered this topic before . But briefly, HD DVD not only allows bit stream output, but has specific provisions for a title to detect the user has chosen this mode, as to remove options (e.g. PiP) which would not work effectively in this situation. Note that I am not sure if titles are properly authored this way. So the options may still show up but future titles can be "smarter" this way, should bypass mode become popular.

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post #99 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 08:32 AM
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So no PiP when using DTS-HD MA or any codec via bitstream? Bitstream is useless then. I will only buy a player with internal decoding of DTS-HD MA. Does such player exist?
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post #100 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 09:44 AM
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It would make sense that if a player did have dts-HD MA internal then choosing multichannel Linear PCM output for HDMI would allow normal HDi commentary audio.

The choice to send out advanced audio codecs as bitstream with HDMI 1.3 should be an audiophile choice. Being able to choose LPCM should also be a choice. Once we get the manual for the DV-HD805, we will know for sure.
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post #101 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:15 AM
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Can someone explain to me why sending the signal as bitstream to be decoded in the processor is more "audiophile" than it being decoded in the player and sent out as digital PCM. You would still be using the processors DACs, delays, and bass management with the digital PCM signal correct?
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post #102 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

Can someone explain to me why sending the signal as bitstream to be decoded in the processor is more "audiophile" than it being decoded in the player and sent out as digital PCM. You would still be using the processors DACs, delays, and bass management with the digital PCM signal correct?


sorry, didnt read your post correctly
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post #103 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:22 AM
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Sorry, scratch #4 the cable one, I didn't read your post correctly.
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post #104 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

Can someone explain to me why sending the signal as bitstream to be decoded in the processor is more "audiophile" than it being decoded in the player and sent out as digital PCM. You would still be using the processors DACs, delays, and bass management with the digital PCM signal correct?

  • player missing dts-HD MA codec
  • player does not do 7.1 decode only 5.1
  • less "jitter" potential when doing packetized bitstream rather than streaming linear PCM
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post #105 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:33 AM
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I am referring to using HDMI with a 1.1 or 1.2a processor/receiver not multi channel analog so the signal would remain digital.
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post #106 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

  • player missing dts-HD MA codec
  • player does not do 7.1 decode only 5.1
  • less "jitter" potential when doing packetized bitstream rather than streaming linear PCM

Ok this is more what I was looking for. Now, assume you don't care about 7.1 and they release a player that can internally decode DTS-HD MA which I am sure they will. That leaves the illusive jitter monster being the only downside?
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post #107 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

I am referring to using HDMI with a 1.1 or 1.2a processor/receiver not multi channel analog so the signal would remain digital.

OK then, scratch the extra D/A conversion.
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post #108 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

I am referring to using HDMI with a 1.1 or 1.2a processor/receiver not multi channel analog so the signal would remain digital.

My reference is to sending advanced audio codecs using raw bitstream to the AVR/Pre-Pro with a HDMI 1.3a connection -- and bitstream being an option over the default of Linear PCM.
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post #109 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

My reference is to sending advanced audio codecs using raw bitstream to the AVR/Pre-Pro with a HDMI 1.3a connection -- and bitstream being an option over the default of Linear PCM.


Yes, wouldnt you simply be hearing LPCM and not DTS HDMA?
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post #110 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

That leaves the illusive jitter monster being the only downside?

Yep for your case. And "jitter" is an elusive monster (very hard to many people to notice). A good AVR/Pre-Pro can have a pretty good PCM clock recovery circuit using a Phase-Locked Loop with a xtal based VCO that solves most of the jitter issues. Depends on your receiving end equipment.

But packet based data transfer of the audio info is inherently less prone to jitter.
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post #111 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

Yes, wouldnt you simply be hearing LPCM and not DTS HDMA?

The new Onkyo AVRs have a internal dts-HD MA decoder. Using HDMI 1.3's bitstream capability is the only way I know of to take advantage of it.
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post #112 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobgpsr View Post

The new Onkyo AVRs have a internal dts-HD MA decoder. Using HDMI 1.3's bitstream capability is the only way I know of to take advantage of it.


Right using 1.3 and bitstream, u would get DTS HDMA. But the other scenario that Tommy posted, wouldnt that give LPCM and not DTS HDMA? (using 1.1 ans 1.2 HDMI)
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post #113 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

Right using 1.3 and bitstream, u would get DTS HDMA. But the other scenario that Tommy posted, wouldnt that give LPCM and not DTS HDMA? (using 1.1 ans 1.2 HDMI)

With HDMI 1.2 or lower (anywhere in the chain) -- yes back to using multichannel linear PCM only. Depending on player hosted advanced audio codec decoding.
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post #114 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

I think the best would be if it can decode it in the player as well as send it as bitstream. Then nobody is hung out to dry.

I agree that would be the ideal solution, but the players still provided DTS-HD Core decoding for HR and MA, and that translates into excellent sound via 1.5Mbps DTS Surround. No-one is being hung out to dry, just getting a little less than they want is all.
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post #115 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd nOOb View Post

As I would think the solution above would be VERY ugly for the format, the best thing would be if TrueHD or MasterHD is selected then the HDi comentary track is disabled, leaving only DD+. If you want to listen to comentary or PIP then trueHD or MasterHD is disabled. At least thats how I would do it, since Im no Tech guy is this possible?

Lets get this disscussion to the right people as this seems the best solution.

Can't say I see your solution as being very attractive. I prefer the idea of just setting a quickly accessible switch to either HDMI bitstream or HDMI interactive (=LPCM)! Quick, simple, and independent of CODEC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hd nOOb View Post

They could even flag to disable DD+ during THD/MAHD playback, some how binding comentary to DD+.

To me, you are making it more and more complicated and convoluted!
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post #116 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

I hope you are right. Seems like the people that makes the discs(BLURAY & HDDVD), the receivers(Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer Elite etc.) and the players from several companies never quite got together to talk about this. If the discs can only be decoded in the player right now. Will these same discs be compatible on future players? And IF they do make discs in the future that pass bitstream to a compatible receiver will these discs be compatible with the current BLURAY/HDDVD players? Just a thought.....

Personally, I can't comprehend the possibility of the upcoming Toshiba bitstream update for the XA2/XE1 and the Onkyo not being able to bitstream already existent titles. To call such a failure a complete SNAFU would be an utter understatement -- I just can't believe the two companies could be that stupid.
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post #117 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

So no PiP when using DTS-HD MA or any codec via bitstream? Bitstream is useless then. I will only buy a player with internal decoding of DTS-HD MA. Does such player exist?

There was never any suggestion that bitstream output would include the Advanced Authored content -- it necessarily bypasses it since there is no means of merging audio from non-fully supported CODECs -- hence the DTS-HD Core support -- it at least gets the listener most of the way there (1.5Mbps worth).

For the people who want to enjoy the interactive content, it's necessary to allow the player to do the decoding, for people who want to enjoy the movie only, processor/receiver decoding becomes an option. Since most people don't fiddle with the options on their first viewing of the movie, this should work out fine.

The HD DVD specs don't exclude DTS-HD HR and MA decoding, so it's always possible some future player/s may include it in an effort to help differentiate them from other players.
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post #118 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

Yes, wouldnt you simply be hearing LPCM and not DTS HDMA?

It's ultimately the same thing -- DTS-HD MA cannot be listened to without being converted first into LPCM (likewise DD+, DD-THD, DTS-HD HR, DD, DTS). The difference is just where the conversion is performed.

PS. You need to remember that before that CODEC was applied (be it DTS-HD MA, DD, whatever) the audio was LPCM. In other words, LPCM is not some kind of sacrifice relative to the compression CODEC applied -- and the CODEC itself is nothing to worship at an alter (unless you happen to be in love with some aspect of its efficiency). The whole point behind both DD-THD and DTS-HD MA is that they PRESERVE the original LPCM -- at the end, it's the LPCM that's important, not the CODEC. The CODEC is only the shipment packaging (open the packaging and you have the content -- if lossless packaging, then the content is the original.)
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post #119 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post

It's ultimately the same thing -- DTS-HD MA cannot be listened to without being converted first into LPCM (likewise DD+, DD-THD, DTS-HD HR, DD, DTS). The difference is just where the conversion is performed.

PS. You need to remember that before that CODEC was applied (be it DTS-HD MA, DD, whatever) the audio was LPCM. In other words, LPCM is not some kind of sacrifice relative to the compression CODEC applied -- and the CODEC itself is nothing to worship at an alter (unless you happen to be in love with some aspect of its efficiency). The whole point behind both DD-THD and DTS-HD MA is that they PRESERVE the original LPCM -- at the end, it's the LPCM that's important, not the CODEC. The CODEC is only the shipment packaging (open the packaging and you have the content -- if lossless packaging, then the content is the original.)

I was always under the impression that the differences in the formats (normal DD vs. normal DTS) or ( Dolby THD vs. DTS HDMA) were simply the "same thing done a slightly different way" (different algorhythms and such)?

I understand that 90% of the people out there probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference between the 3 if they are mastered at the same bit rate. But wouldnt you be "required" to have:

1. DTS HDMA on the disc
2. a player with HDMI 1.3
3. a player that detects the "flag" from the disc to pass it bitstream
4. a receiver/pre amp with HDMI 1.3 that decodes DTS HDMA

Wouldnt this all be required to "hear" the actual DTS HDMA track that the director intended?

Otherwise with the other 1.1 or 1.2 HDMI solutions wouldnt you be "missing out" on the actual DTS HDMA track?

Good information, thanks.
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post #120 of 834 Old 08-13-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

I was always under the impression that the differences in the formats (normal DD vs. normal DTS) or ( Dolby THD vs. DTS HDMA) were simply the "same thing done a slightly different way" (different algorhythms and such)?

I understand that 90% of the people out there probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference between the 3 if they are mastered at the same bit rate. But wouldnt you be "required" to have:

1. DTS HDMA on the disc
2. a player with HDMI 1.3
3. a player that detects the "flag" from the disc to pass it bitstream
4. a receiver/pre amp with HDMI 1.3 that decodes DTS HDMA

Wouldnt this all be required to "hear" the actual DTS HDMA track that the director intended?

Otherwise with the other 1.1 or 1.2 HDMI solutions wouldnt you be "missing out" on the actual DTS HDMA track?

Good information, thanks.

You get LPCM when DTS HD-MA is decoded. It can be done in the player and sent digitally via HDMI 1.1 or better or it can be sent bitstream via HDMI 1.3a or better and decoded to LPCM in the processor/receiver. So the answer is no you wouldn't be missing out. I was just wondering why people were referring the the bitstream transmission as "more audiophile". The potential of jitter seems to be the reason.
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