When will HD have a player with <10 sec loading times? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

All they'd need to do is use a stand-by mode similar to Hibernation in Vista which resumes instantly and sleeps just like it's off (no fan noise) I'm pretty sure that would require a harddrive but a tiny one can be had for next to nothing that can do the job. Then again I'm no engineer but I still think these things can be made faster with current technology and cost effective in the process

I really don't understand why the obsession with Boot times. Every time a new player comes out, you can bet the within 3 posts someone will have asked what the boot time is...

Before long at least in europe i expect standby modes to be banned on equipment like DVD players etc, so it'll be either on or off. It's just not green to keep things ticking over burning electricity so we can turn them on instantly... So i suspect we better all get used to longer load times on lots of stuff.
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post #32 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Campbell View Post

Did I say it was the number one factor? I remember typing the thread subject that read "when will HD have a player with <10 sec loading times", but I don't recall mentioning that it was my #1 priority.

i don't think you stated that explicitly, but i inferred it from your posts about the 360 add-on being the player for you. if i inferred incorrectly, i apologize.

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Are you telling me you're actually outraged that people expect the same level of performance for an "upgrade" product than one they already own?

i don't believe i ever stated or suggested that i'm "outraged" about anything. i simply find the obsession with load times to be silly. hi-def players are a new technology and as such, they function differently than the old technology. in nearly all areas, they far exceed the level of performance of a DVD player. their load times are slower, but that is precisely because they offer a greater level of performance in the areas that really matter.

consider this: my 1080p projector takes 30-60 seconds to warm up to full brightness once it's powered on. i don't expect the image to be immediately visible like my old CRT, because it's a different technology and one that outperforms my old TV in resolution, image size, etc. do you believe i should expect the image to appear at full brightness immediately, just because the projector is an "upgrade" product from my CRT?

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Are you actually suggesting that you'd be OK with the current build of players forever?

absolutely. this is simply a non-issue for me. every choice in technology has tradeoffs. i plan on owning my A35 for many years and am perfectly content to wait 30-40 seconds for it to boot up and ~20 seconds to load a disc.

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I don't give one hoot about interactivity - I want pure, unadulterated films in the same fashion that I used to get them (DVD), with HD picture and sound. Period.

that is irrelevant to this discussion. the hi-def formats offer it, whether you personally care about it or not.

--kevin--
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post #33 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 09:48 AM
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I can actually say that its never been an issue for me, in fact, if I didn't read it in this forum it would have never crossed my mind.

What gets me is that everyone wants cheap, but we also want fast. Cheap & fast are not synonimous with each other. I assume to gain any substantial decrease in load time, you'd have to increase processor power. Increased processor power means increased cost. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to pay a premium to shave a few seconds off load time. Maybe some are, but I doubt it's a majority, especially for the average consumer.

I'd say if your time is so valuable you can't wait 20 more seconds, you probably shouldn't be watching TV anyway...
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post #34 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by threefirstnames View Post

i don't think you stated that explicitly, but i inferred it from your posts about the 360 add-on being the player for you. if i inferred incorrectly, i apologize.


...their load times are slower, but that is precisely because they offer a greater level of performance in the areas that really matter.

consider this: my 1080p projector takes 30-60 seconds to warm up to full brightness once it's powered on. i don't expect the image to be immediately visible like my old CRT, because it's a different technology and one that outperforms my old TV in resolution, image size, etc. do you believe i should expect the image to appear at full brightness immediately, just because the projector is an "upgrade" product from my CRT?


absolutely. this is simply a non-issue for me. every choice in technology has tradeoffs. i plan on owning my A35 for many years and am perfectly content to wait 30-40 seconds for it to boot up and ~20 seconds to load a disc.


that is irrelevant to this discussion. the hi-def formats offer it, whether you personally care about it or not.

1. The way I see it, this is really the only feature (given HDMI output) that really differentiates the stand alones and the Xbox add-on. Naturally picture quality and sound are my top priorities, but I see those as acceptable among the entire crop of HD players already. The only thing that sets the stand alones apart is scaling performance, which I can address with a separate faster DVD player to kill two birds with one stone.

2. So you're saying that load times are slower (if not you, then someone else) because of the interactivity features, and yet here you say that they're slower since they offer improved performance where it "really matters". Yet you deemed my indifference to these interactivity features not germane to this discussion. Hmm.

The bottom line here is that you may expect to pay a penalty for the increase in performance, but I can tell you that J6P is not going to expect or want this. Here's a hypothetical: in 50-60 years we will undoubtedly have seen several more generations of A/V media come and go, and in each of those generations we see a little more performance at the cost of speed. After 50-60 years, will it still be acceptable to wait 10+ minutes every time you turn on your media player? Hyperbole, granted, but it illustrates my point.

3. Your projector analogy is not valid. Projectors are not a technology seeking to entirely replace direct view televisions. Nor will they ever replace them entirely.

Lastly, I'm sorry to the HD crowd if I touched a nerve. I simply wish to withdraw my question at this point (having had it answered long ago). What I find a little tough to swallow, however, is that I get such vehement objection when I ask a question regarding an opinion that I have about a performance parameter that's not quite up to par yet. Why such anger that I'm not 100% satisfied as you are? You ask for reasons. I gave you reasons. These were not good enough and it was even implied that I was childish for my gross level of impatience. Why so much vitriol?
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post #35 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 10:08 AM
 
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1. The way I see it, this is really the only feature (given HDMI output) that really differentiates the stand alones and the Xbox add-on. Naturally picture quality and sound are my top priorities, but I see those as acceptable among the entire crop of HD players already. The only thing that sets the stand alones apart is scaling performance, which I can address with a separate faster DVD player to kill two birds with one stone.

It is to my understanding that the 360AO does not use an HDMI cable - it uses an RGB cable . . . is this right?

It is also to my understanding that the 360AO can't deal with TrueHD . . . is that right also?
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post #36 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Regarding HDMI, I know that the new Xbox premium (not the elite, which also has HDMI) has HDMI output. I'm not sure if TrueHD is output, but I was under the impression that TrueHD decoding capability is part of the HD player spec, correct? Something I certainly wish Blu-Ray would require as well.
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post #37 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 10:14 AM
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Chris,

I am sorry if people have been jumping on you regarding this topic. However, I think your expectation of HDM have been somewhat spoiled by PS3. PS3 is an exceptional HDM player really without equal among both Blu-ray and HD DVD players. People who own standalone Blu-ray players also suffer from long boot up times, and with newer Blu-ray discs (BD-Java enhanced titles equivalent to HDi encoded HD DVD discs which have been the mainstream since day 1), they also have long, long startup time (from disc insertion until movie is playing). So, your opinion of performance parameter being not quite up to par should not be levied against just HD DVD. When you compare apples to apples (standalone players and discs authored in advanced mode), both formats are turtles.

Addicted to shiny round discs with HD content

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post #38 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 10:25 AM
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Load time for me is a wash with my HD-DVD's so far because I haven't had to sit through and attampt to skip through 1000 previews before a movie. FBI Logo, Studio logo, then jump right into the movie. Doesn't get any better then that.
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post #39 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Campbell View Post

1. The way I see it, this is really the only feature (given HDMI output) that really differentiates the stand alones and the Xbox add-on. Naturally picture quality and sound are my top priorities, but I see those as acceptable among the entire crop of HD players already. The only thing that sets the stand alones apart is scaling performance, which I can address with a separate faster DVD player to kill two birds with one stone.

i could be wrong, but don't believe the XBOX 360 (even the premium) supports bitstreaming the advanced audio codecs. currently that is the only way you will get DTS-HD MA audio, which seem to be the standard hi-def audio option on the upcoming New Line releases. this is, at least, one A/V quality consideration that gives the standalones (specifically the XA2 and the A35) a significant edge.

Quote:


2. So you're saying that load times are slower (if not you, then someone else) because of the interactivity features, and yet here you say that they're slower since they offer improved performance where it "really matters". Yet you deemed my indifference to these interactivity features not germane to this discussion. Hmm.

i'm saying that load times are slower because of the overall performance that hi-def players offer, including but not limited to interactivity. interactivity is certainly not the sole reason for longer load times and it cannot somehow be separated out. your lack of desire for interactivity is not germane, because it is part of the spec for both hi-def formats in spite of your indifference.

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The bottom line here is that you may expect to pay a penalty for the increase in performance, but I can tell you that J6P is not going to expect or want this.

they may not want it (and frankly, that's mostly your own baseless opinion, unless you've done a scientific survey), but i believe they will also learn to live with it, just as they do many quirks with many technologies that are commonplace today. that's my own baseless opinion, so i guess we're at a push here.

Quote:


Here's a hypothetical: in 50-60 years we will undoubtedly have seen several more generations of A/V media come and go, and in each of those generations we see a little more performance at the cost of speed. After 50-60 years, will it still be acceptable to wait 10+ minutes every time you turn on your media player? Hyperbole, granted, but it illustrates my point.

this much hypothetical hyperbole does not even warrant a response.

Quote:


3. Your projector analogy is not valid. Projectors are not a technology seeking to entirely replace direct view televisions. Nor will they ever replace them entirely.

the analogy was in response to your statement that hi-def players are an "upgrade" technology. perhaps you meant a "replacement" technology.


Quote:


Lastly, I'm sorry to the HD crowd if I touched a nerve. I simply wish to withdraw my question at this point (having had it answered long ago). What I find a little tough to swallow, however, is that I get such vehement objection when I ask a question regarding an opinion that I have about a performance parameter that's not quite up to par yet. Why such anger that I'm not 100% satisfied as you are? You ask for reasons. I gave you reasons. These were not good enough and it was even implied that I was childish for my gross level of impatience. Why so much vitriol?

please don't mistake my disagreement with anger or vitriol. i'm not angry in the least. i simply disagree with you. personally, i didn't object to your original question at all. if you look back at the thread, i specifically felt compelled to respond to your "surprise" that there are people who just don't care that much about the load times. that kind of statement is nothing but an invite for a "vehement" response from those who are satisfied.

--kevin--
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post #40 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DeoreDX View Post

Load time for me is a wash with my HD-DVD's so far because I haven't had to sit through and attampt to skip through 1000 previews before a movie. FBI Logo, Studio logo, then jump right into the movie. Doesn't get any better then that.

Some HDDVDs do have forced preview(s). They disable the "menu" button but you can skip past them using "chapter advance".
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post #41 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

It is to my understanding that the 360AO does not use an HDMI cable - it uses an RGB cable . . . is this right?

It is also to my understanding that the 360AO can't deal with TrueHD . . . is that right also?

360AO does not have any video connection. It has a USB connection to XBox 360 main unit. The software on XBox 360 does all the decoding and processing. Then, depending on which XBox 360 you have and what connection you use, you can output HDMI, component or VGA.

It does decode TrueHD and any other audio codec that a Toshiba player can do. And you have the option of either output as DD or DTS 1.5mbps. Unfortunately it does not output multi-channel PCM over HDMI.
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post #42 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

360AO does not have any video connection. It has a USB connection to XBox 360 main unit. The software on XBox 360 does all the decoding and processing. Then, depending on which XBox 360 you have and what connection you use, you can output HDMI, component or VGA.

Ahhhh . . so it depends on which model 360 you start with as to which video connection you get.

Quote:


It does decode TrueHD and any other audio codec that a Toshiba player can do. And you have the option of either output as DD or DTS 1.5mbps. Unfortunately it does not output multi-channel PCM over HDMI.

Thank you for clearing these two "issues" up.
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post #43 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:41 AM
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People simply need to stop trying to directly compare DVD and High Def Disc machines in certain areas. These are two completely different system architectures.

Just because we "demand" that boot-up time is quick and 20-30 seconds is "unacceptable" doesn't mean that there is a valid point.

I drive a car, I like how a plane can fly, but I don't complain that automobiles don't have wings. Same end goal - transportation (watching movies) but the vehicle is different (DVD vs. HDM).

Consumers these days demand that everything work exactly as they want - but in reality, we can't expect technology to meet our evey beck and call. Someday it will catch up, but it hasn't yet so just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show!
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post #44 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Ahhhh . . so it depends on which model 360 you start with as to which video connection you get.

Note that almost all the new batch of Xbox 360s now include HDMI port.
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post #45 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:51 AM
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All they need to do is allow the tray to open as soon as the power comes on, just like a normal computer.

-Chuck
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post #46 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 11:53 AM
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I dont really care about the loading time, Because right after loading I will have a movie to enjoy atleast for the next 90 minutes or so. Just enjoy it. and for the OP my answer is maybe sooner we will have a fast loading time.

Peter
Enjoy HD no matter what......
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post #47 of 47 Old 11-19-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Campbell View Post

I think I was clear in my post that it is user error, but the point is that this player exacerbates that error. Here's another one: I hit eject on the remote to get things started, then my wife goes and hits the eject button on the player because she didn't know I actually hit eject, not just power. Now the unit has received two commands to eject, nullifying the command. Since wait time is so long, its difficult to tell if its not going to open at all (how many of those eject commands registered?), or that I simply haven't waited long enough. If someone wasn't familiar with the wait times of the A1, they could quite easily see this exact scenario by themselves (it's happened multiple times with my guests).

Apparently your A2 is considerably faster than my A1. Unless you take the time to actually select a movie while taking it out of the case, this is not my experience. I follow exactly those steps and I'm left with quite a bit of time sitting there with the disc in my hand, waiting to insert it into the not-yet-open drive. Nine times out of ten, when I start up my player, I know exactly which movie I want to play.

Does it really take two people to load a dvd?
I have never had my wife or a guest get in the middle of me loading a dvd!
It just sounds ridiculus to me. Unless you are physically unable to complete both tasks, I find it hard to believe that anyone would start pressing buttons on the dvd player.
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