Onkyo DV-HD805 - First End User Reports! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 06:47 AM
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And if you are not seeing a sharper image with the A35 when compared to the XA2 and its latest 1080p/24 firmware fix then that is normal...

If you didn't before then it would have to be your display...

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post #92 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

The A30/A35 are slightly sharper than the XA2, so I wouldn't doubt the 805. Placebo effect? No. I would call it denial for some.

I have to agree with this, the A35 has a better 1080i image than the XA2 for example, those that are using 1080i on the XA2 may want to move over because that player has a 1080i output that goes thru way to many processes, you can PM Kris Deering for details

I use 1080i for everything into a VP50pro from DVDO which has IMHO the worlds best 1080i deinterlacing modes

this is all based on the fact that I use the A35 at 1080i and playback 100% HD-DVD media

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post #93 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I dont find the a35 sharper at all when I tested, all I noticed in difference was the reon options to reduce noise, I turn two of them on and leave block noise off. But sharpness I dont know how you see a bit better sharpness, unless you have all the filters on. Im also assuming you guys tried firmware 2.7 where most of us noticed a better picture.

Of course you could just turn edge enhancement on to enhance the sharpness, 1 does a great job without adding any artifical detail. The xa2 also passes all dve tests while the A35 had the odd issue. I dont doubt the onkyo is every bit as good as the xa2, what I do question is how the same hardware and the reon is producing a sharper picture. Especially when someone claimed the onkyo was the same as xa2 on 1080p 60hz but on 24fps somehow the onkyo was sharper. Again im wondering how changing framerate made the picture sharper.

If you use the HD DVE sharpness pattern and turn the EE to +1 on the XA2, you will see that it DOES add some edge enhancement on the outlines. I also found it accentuated artifacting in images, as well. The noise filters on the XA2 will mask out some very fine detail too.

The A30/35 give a slightly sharpness image without any EE - it's a bit more crisp. It's slight - not earth shattering - but a difference none the less. I also found the A30/35 to be a hair cleaner. This could be seen on HD DVE - the scene where the man and woman are getting ready to eat dinner at the resturant. In the upper right hand corner of the screen by the woman's head, there is background space which is great for finding video noise.

I spent several hours comparing the XA2 to the A30/35 on my ISF'd 60A3000 SXRD. I used HD DVE and several movies which I frequenty use for comparison. I wanted the XA2 to be better because of the Reon for SD DVD, but it wasn't for HD DVD, so I returned it and went with the A30 (with latest firmwares). I haven't used the 805, but have no doubt this unit is slightly better than the XA2, as well.

Edit: all of my comparisons with HD DVD were done with the units at 1080p/24.

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post #94 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

And if you are not seeing a sharper image with the A35 when compared to the XA2 and its latest 1080p/24 firmware fix then that is normal...

If you didn't before then it would have to be your display...

I would agree with this. I had the A35 at my house for about 3 weeks and with the 2.7 update that came out for the XA2 I could not tell any difference in sharpness for 1080/24p between the 2. The A35 had to go as I could keep only 1.

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post #95 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

I have to agree with this, the A35 has a better 1080i image than the XA2 for example, those that are using 1080i on the XA2 may want to move over because that player has a 1080i output that goes thru way to many processes, you can PM Kris Deering for details

I use 1080i for everything into a VP50pro from DVDO which has IMHO the worlds best 1080i deinterlacing modes

this is all based on the fact that I use the A35 at 1080i and playback 100% HD-DVD media

-Gary

Okay since this is the Onkyo thread does the Onkyo have these 1080i issues? I am using a 1080i tv.
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post #96 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Here I go again being questioned over here by people who all want to believe whatever there wallet tells them...

I'm not doubting that you find the Onkyo is better than the X-A2, but you know that a lot of AVS members are skeptical of new products that have only been tested by very few people. Especially when we read statements like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I haven't used the 805, but have no doubt this unit is slightly better than the XA2, as well.

Haven't used the player and yet without a doubt can confidently state it's better than another player? With statements like that, once's credibility goes out the window. (That's like saying, "Ya know, I read this book about England and I've never been there, but it's certainly a better country to live in than the United States.")

What I'm inferring is that as a custom installer with contacts at Onkyo you have firmware that isn't available to the general public (which you admitted ), and thereby don't have the same end player as the general public does. When we all have the same end player, I'd be more inclined to agree with what you see. That's makes sense, doesn't it?
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post #97 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 11:54 AM
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Okay since this is the Onkyo thread does the Onkyo have these 1080i issues?

I would also like to know (I am also using 1080i, FTTB), as this is the #1 issue with the XA2 for me. I don't know whether the processing paths are FW or HW dependant, but if Onkyo tweaked the path so as to avoid the over-processing of the signal, I would definately pay the premium for the Onkyo...

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post #98 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchot View Post

I'm not doubting that you find the Onkyo is better than the X-A2, but you know that a lot of AVS members are skeptical of new products that have only been tested by very few people. Especially when we read statements like this:



Haven't used the player and yet without a doubt can confidently state it's better than another player? With statements like that, once's credibility goes out the window. (That's like saying, "Ya know, I read this book about England and I've never been there, but it's certainly a better country to live in than the United States.")

What I'm inferring is that as a custom installer with contacts at Onkyo you have firmware that isn't available to the general public (which you admitted ), and thereby don't have the same end player as the general public does. When we all have the same end player, I'd be more inclined to agree with what you see. That's makes sense, doesn't it?

What I meant to say is, if I know for a FACT the A30/A35 is slightly better than the XA2, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that the 805 is slightly better. Based on this and some people's opinions here I trust, again, it wouldn't surprise me the 805 edges it out. But, the same thing is going on in other forums where people refuse to believe the Panasonic BD30 is better than the PS3.

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post #99 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

What I meant to say is, if I know for a FACT the A30/A35 is slightly better than the XA2, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that the 805 is slightly better. Based on this and some people's opinions here I trust, again, it wouldn't surprise me the 805 edges it out. But, the same thing is going on in other forums where people refuse to believe the Panasonic BD30 is better than the PS3.

This is AV Science Forum and not AV Opinion Forum which is why I'm trying to determine how much better and if the 805 is better than the X-A2 and under what circumstances. Plan and simple. I have no allegiance to keeping my X-A2 over buying the 805. Just trying to get the FACTS before my window to return the X-A2 closes.
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post #100 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 02:11 PM
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you guys would have to ask Kris that, I was just repeating what I was told

the processes I was speaking of were the stages it takes to get from the 1080p/24 disc to the 1080i output of the said players

-Gary
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post #101 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 02:48 PM
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the processes I was speaking of were the stages it takes to get from the 1080p/24 disc to the 1080i output of the said players

That's the one... Hopefully, Kris will do a complete review and write-up on this one. If no dual format players are announced at CES (that will street in less than 6mo), the Onkyo looks to be the HD-DVD half of my dual setup (also assuming that it will be able to do TL51).

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post #102 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

That's the one... Hopefully, Kris will do a complete review and write-up on this one. If no dual format players are announced at CES (that will street in less than 6mo), the Onkyo looks to be the HD-DVD half of my dual setup (also assuming that it will be able to do TL51).

Do you guys have a link to Kris's post about the XA2, I would love to read it. Right now I'm trying to decide between the A35 and XA2, I don't have a 24accepting TV so that is where I run into problems with the A35 and its defunct 1080p60 output (it is ridiculous). However 1080i looks great as does the XA2's 1080p60. Upscaling seems pretty much equal which suprised me and bettered my PS3 which I already thought was good, I just didn't expect the A35 to better the PS3 or come so close to the XA2's REON.

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post #103 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 05:50 PM
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post #104 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 05:51 PM
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"If you use the HD DVE sharpness pattern and turn the EE to +1 on the XA2, you will see that it DOES add some edge enhancement on the outlines. I also found it accentuated artifacting in images, as well. The noise filters on the XA2 will mask out some very fine detail too."

I have never noticed anywhere setting it to 1 adds artifacts on 106 screen as for your test thats what edge enhancement does, I found setting 2 to look bad however.

"This could be seen on HD DVE - the scene where the man and woman are getting ready to eat dinner at the resturant. In the upper right hand corner of the screen by the woman's head, there is background space which is great for finding video noise."

I have studied the scene many times but are you claiming the Xa2 added noise? I have never noticed this comparison.

I do know if you check out the thread on this forum with the dve hd the a35 series has some problems with 1080p. Xa2 passed all hqv tests a35 did, but the a35 has some deinterlacing issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=953656&page=2

The only way I can see you finding your picture sharper with the a35 is if you used 1080i to an external processor, and used the xa2 on 1080p.

Although there was also an initial thread when xa2 was first released tested being as good as the crystalio 2.
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post #105 of 1755 Old 12-16-2007, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

"If you use the HD DVE sharpness pattern and turn the EE to +1 on the XA2, you will see that it DOES add some edge enhancement on the outlines. I also found it accentuated artifacting in images, as well. The noise filters on the XA2 will mask out some very fine detail too."

I have never noticed anywhere setting it to 1 adds artifacts on 106 screen as for your test thats what edge enhancement does, I found setting 2 to look bad however.

"This could be seen on HD DVE - the scene where the man and woman are getting ready to eat dinner at the resturant. In the upper right hand corner of the screen by the woman's head, there is background space which is great for finding video noise."

I have studied the scene many times but are you claiming the Xa2 added noise? I have never noticed this comparison.

I do know if you check out the thread on this forum with the dve hd the a35 series has some problems with 1080p. Xa2 passed all hqv tests a35 did, but the a35 has some deinterlacing issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=953656&page=2

The only way I can see you finding your picture sharper with the a35 is if you used 1080i to an external processor, and used the xa2 on 1080p.

Although there was also an initial thread when xa2 was first released tested being as good as the crystalio 2.

There are other reports from people on this forum who claim slightly better images with the A30/35 over the XA2. (Plazman comes to mind - who posts quite a bit - is one of them.) The A30/35 has no issues with 1080p/24 -so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Yes, they have issues at 1080p/60. That's odd you aren't see the EE on the test pattern as others I've talked to have noticed this, as well. I don't know, maybe it's a display capability thing just like the sharpness. And, yes, I found the A30 maybe just a hair cleaner, but extremely slight. Remember, the XA2 is a two-year-old architecture which is quite old these days.

By the way, are you using 1080p/24 and is your display professionally calibrated or ISF'd?

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post #106 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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A custom installer? I do have a special contact at Onkyo but that does not in any way shape or form cloud my judgement. Ask the folks in the receiver threads. I get on them as much as any other end user. And if it were another company I would report my same exact findings. I use a crystalio II, VW200 PJ and 5 different players which when comparing I can play the same scene on 2 or 3 of them at the same time. All I have to do is switch the inputs on my PJ or plasma. Here I go again being questioned over here by people who all want to believe whatever there wallet tells them...

And I would also remind people that this thread is called "Onkyo 805 - First End User Reports." It's kind of surprising how many people are equipped to comment on this player's performance and question owners of the Onkyo without any actual first hand experience of their own. This is where reputation comes into play. joerod's name is respected enough that, on that alone, I kept the 805 in anticipation of the firmware he is lucky enough to have before anyone else.

I do feel, however, that there are subtle improvements to be had in the Onkyo over the XA2, even in its pre-firmware existence. These improvements exist in HD playback, SD playback, and ergonomics.
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post #107 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:17 AM
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Whats the best price one can get on this player? If someone has any info or any special AVS forum pricing, would you be kind enough to message me? TIA
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post #108 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sammywhammy007 View Post

Whats the best price one can get on this player? If someone has any info or any special AVS forum pricing, would you be kind enough to message me? TIA

This site has the lowest price that I could find.
http://www.radarcity.com/product?prod_id=12644&refer=6
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post #109 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:26 AM
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This site has the lowest price that I could find.
http://www.radarcity.com/product?prod_id=12644&refer=6

Thx Robert. That site kinda looks a bit dodgy. Any known dealers like say, JR, offering any special pricing on it for AVS members?
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post #110 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:30 AM
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Thx Robert. That site kinda looks a bit dodgy. Any known dealers like say, JR, offering any special pricing on it for AVS members?

Call Value Electronics (forum sponsor) and ask them if they have any special pricing for the player. http://www.*********************/avstc.htm
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post #111 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 04:34 AM
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And for the record I am more of an end user clinician than a custom installer. I only custom install part time (a lot less lately) and have a different profession for my live's work. I have gotten into most places because like everything else in life it is about timing.

Back to the HD805, it is the best HD DVD player available today. Most who discount it do not want to spend more for it which is reasonable. But until you have one and put it through a good workout you can't judge it fairly. Mine has operated flawlessly and I have not had a single issue... A great picture with great playback...

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post #112 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 04:46 AM
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I'm definitely picking one of these up (from Robert @ *********************) the day after CES is over. That is - unless a bombshell is dropped at CES (reason I'm waiting).
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post #113 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 06:44 AM
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I was refering to the person who claimed 1080P 60htz was even on his a35 and xa2 (which is not the case as in the other thread I posted a35 has small issues) and then claimed though 1080p24htz made his image somehow sharper then the xa2, its things and comments like this that dont make sense, which is why I question the people claiming there a35 somehow outperforms the xa2 in picture, even when the xa2 passes more hqv tests then the a35.

As for the onkyo, all Im saying is for having the same old "Architecture" and using a reon just like the xa2 these differences you see also confuse me.
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post #114 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

I was refering to the person who claimed 1080P 60htz was even on his a35 and xa2 (which is not the case as in the other thread I posted a35 has small issues) and then claimed though 1080p24htz made his image somehow sharper then the xa2, its things and comments like this that dont make sense, which is why I question the people claiming there a35 somehow outperforms the xa2 in picture, even when the xa2 passes more hqv tests then the a35.

As for the onkyo, all Im saying is for having the same old "Architecture" and using a reon just like the xa2 these differences you see also confuse me.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me, but I never said anything about 1080p/60 being even with the A30/35 and XA2. I said the A30/35 is slightly better/sharper than the XA2 at 1080p/24 on various material. I'm not sure why you have trouble comprehending that one player does better than the other at a certain framerate, but so be it. I agree with Brad this thread should stay on the 805 and its users - and I'm not going to discuss the matter any longer.

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post #115 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 09:04 AM
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DavidHir and/or joerod,

Are NR and/or color controls enabled in 1080p24 with the 805 (do you see them affecting the picture)?

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post #116 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Ley View Post

It's kind of surprising how many people are equipped to comment on this player's performance and question owners of the Onkyo without any actual first hand experience of their own.

Some of us might become first hand users of the Onkyo if we're able to question the current owners as to why they think the Onkyo is performing better than the X-A2.

Can a person with an X-A2 tweak their machine to perform as well as the Onkyo?

With virtually the same parts in both machines, we're trying to determine how the Onkyo is achieving the better picture. Is it the firmware or are there actual differences under the hood or is it a combination of both? That's a pretty simple and direct question that is not "attacking" anybody's expertise.

Has Onkyo added something inside the player that makes it better than the X-A2? If so, what? If I was able to get the firmware of the Onkyo and put it on the X-A2 would I have a better Toshiba X-A2?

Has any owner of the Onkyo 805 gone into the picture menu and tweaked the settings to get an even better picture than what comes out of the box from Onkyo?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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post #117 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 01:27 PM
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To answer your questions, YES.

The truth here is I do NOT get paid by Onkyo or anyone else for reporting my findings. I am not posting telling other AVS members to buy a unit from me. I simply call it like I see it. And yes I do that for free! I either have owned or do own almost every player on the market. That is why it is very frustrating when other members suggest I have a hidden agenda or am biased towards products.

Back on topic: The HD805 will have a new firmware available in early 08'. I am still working on a date or more detailed estimate...

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post #118 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Back on topic: The HD805 will have a new firmware available in early 08'. I am still working on a date or more detailed estimate...

Hi Joe,

Is this a newer firmware than you are running? What version is your player now?

Thanks.
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post #119 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 02:51 PM
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Just got mine today. Unfortunately, I no longer have my XA2 to compare to.
A couple of quick tidbits.
Gotta change that little switch from SD to HD, otherwise no picture from HDMI. Panicked for a little while.
Firmware 2.6
About 37 seconds from power on to no disc, 32 sec from tray close to warning screen.
I can use my extra XA2 remote to access the picture controls.
I like the look of the XA2 better, but I'm sure that is personal preference.
Will get to some real viewing later tonight.
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post #120 of 1755 Old 12-17-2007, 03:43 PM
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To answer your questions, YES.

If this answer is for my question(s) (in post #115 above) then like the XA2, the 1080p24 output is not the raw stream from the disc when the settings (color/NR) are changed from their defaults. A different firmware version (or tweak) in his 805 could easily account for the PQ differences with the 805 and XA2.

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