51g discs and A2 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 01-22-2008, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I sometimes go to highdefdigest to see what's going on. I'm not a member there though. Anyways, I saw a post from someone saying that there are movies that will be released in TL51 format this year. Will my A2 be able to read this format?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 34 Old 01-22-2008, 11:53 PM
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It TL51 is released it will be compatible with current HD DVD players.

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post #3 of 34 Old 01-22-2008, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

It TL51 is released it will be compatible with current HD DVD players.

Now, you got me confused. When you say current, are you saying the new hddvd players that will be released the same time the TL51 movies will be released?
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-22-2008, 11:57 PM
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That movie list is a tad suspicious...

Saving Private Ryan and A.I. are both Spielberg films.

Spielberg has explicitly stated that his films will not be released on HD DVD.

Sounds like someone over there has an overactive imagination.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see SPR @ 1080p but I just don't see it happening...
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post #5 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Or even if A2 will not be able to read TL51 but XA2 will, then BAM! XA2 is what I am planning to buy next.

Midnight, please let me know. Thanks.
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 12:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

I ignore MidnightWatcher, but he probably won't be able to cite you any confirmation of compatibility.

There was been a lot of wishful thinking but the facts remain that there have been no official statements that TL-51 is backwards compatible or coming any time soon and the evidence suggests otherwise on both counts.

IMO TL-51 is to HD-DVD what profile 1.1 was to Blu-ray... a future feature not compatible with current players. When Profile 1.1 players were announced, the companies announcing them made MAJOR bullet points that profile 1.1 was present.

Toshiba would do the same thing with TL-51.

Ok. I think, I'll just wait then.

If A2 will be able to read it, awesome since I don't have to spend! If not, I'll have to find something that will be able to read it.

Thanks guys!
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post #7 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 04:08 AM
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When 51gb was announced, I am pretty darn sure I seen official statements of backward compatibility.
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post #8 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

When 51gb was announced, I am pretty darn sure I seen official statements of backward compatibility.

Yes, Toshiba had said it would be compatible. I think I'd take their words over anyone here in the forum or even Sony's.

Hmmmmm What to write?
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post #9 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
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BAM!

Thanks folks.
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post #10 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

That movie list is a tad suspicious...

Saving Private Ryan and A.I. are both Spielberg films.

Spielberg has explicitly stated that his films will not be released on HD DVD.

Sounds like someone over there has an overactive imagination.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see SPR @ 1080p but I just don't see it happening...

SS did not say that.

Stop spreading this nonsense as fact.
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post #11 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Now, you got me confused. When you say current, are you saying the new hddvd players that will be released the same time the TL51 movies will be released?

Unless all HD DVD players were compatible I do not think that the DVD Forum would introduce TL51.

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post #12 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

Sorry to disappoint you but I really, really doubt there will ever be any content released on TL-51 discs.

First off, there is little point. HD DVD has insufficient bandwidth to effectively make use of the extra space on most regular length (2 hour) movies.

Having said that, if TL-51 discs hypothetically did appear, it really is doubtful that your A2 could read them. It's even doubtful that the newer A3's would be able to read them. If TL-51 could be brought to market and was totally backwards compatible Toshiba and the HD-DVD Promo Group would simply never shut up about it.

One of the big perceived advantages of Blu-ray is it's storage space increase over HD DVD and reminding people that they had discs with even MORE space (albeit only 1 extra gigabyte) would be a constant talking about for the promotion group.

Making matters worse, it's already an often used argument that HD-DVD is feature complete, unlike Blu-ray. Since TL-51 probably isn't totally backwards compatible it would be suicidal to introduce it and say "Sorry to the early adopters, but you'll need a new (albeit cheap) player to read these discs". This would wipe out the "we're feature complete' argument.

"First off, there is little point. HD DVD has insufficient bandwidth to effectively make use of the extra space on most regular length (2 hour) movies."

Utter nonsense, TL51 gives extra storage space. A supposed bandwidth limitation doesn't limit the usage of extra space.
In fact because of TL51 avg bitrate can be higher as there is less reason for lower bitrates for sake of space preservation.
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post #13 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:27 AM
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That's the whole point of having finalized specs....it's so all players can play all the discs and all of the content on those discs.....anyone that says otherwise is in the wrong section of this forum.....
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post #14 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 06:53 AM
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To OP

I doubt we will see TL51 for home video. As stated by insiders there is no real demand for it from studio's.

The latest I saw about TL51 spec developments might indicate that the specification is for pc drives only.

I'm convinced that the drives in all the HD DVD player generations have the technology available and will be firmware upgradable to handle triple layer.
Problem might be that a small percentage of the disc drives might have issues with too many read errors that cannot be corrected. If that is the case it might have an impact on a too big % of users affected by it.
Just a 10% of players failing might be solvable by a repair/replacement program but will bring to much confusion and bad press that it's not worth persuing further development if demand for TL51 for movies is very low to begin with.

TL51 for pc industry does have no backward compatibility problem as it is starting from scratch.
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post #15 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post

To OP

I doubt we will see TL51 for home video. As stated by insiders there is no real demand for it from studio's.

The latest I saw about TL51 spec developments might indicate that the specification is for pc drives only.

I'm convinced that the drives in all the HD DVD player generations have the technology available and will be firmware upgradable to handle triple layer.
Problem might be that a small percentage of the disc drives might have issues with too many read errors that cannot be corrected. If that is the case it might have an impact on a too big % of users affected by it.
Just a 10% of players failing might be solvable by a repair/replacement program but will bring to much confusion and bad press that it's not worth persuing further development if demand for TL51 for movies is very low to begin with.

TL51 for pc industry does have no backward compatibility problem as it is starting from scratch.

All conjecture. HD DVD ROM51 has already been approved by the DVD Forum. Just because there is no demand from studios to use it does not mean that they will not. It's all moot anyway since 30GB is plenty for nearly all movies.

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post #16 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 09:35 AM
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You guys honestly think that TL51 is going to move forward at this point? Come on.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD supporter.
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post #17 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MohaimenK View Post

Yes, Toshiba had said it would be compatible. I think I'd take their words over anyone here in the forum or even Sony's.

Care to share links?

I have one, for example:

http://www.betanews.com/article/Tosh...All/1189716943

Quote:


"We understand that the preliminary version (1.9) of the physical specifications for the triple-layer 51 GB HD DVD-ROM disc has been approved," said Toshiba's spokesperson today.

The spokesperson then added that it has not yet been determined whether current HD DVD players or recorders will be able to use the new format, which the headline of an official Toshiba statement given to BetaNews today is now calling "Trip-Layer." "Toshiba will study the performance of current HD DVD player/recorders with the disc after the standard receives final approval by the DVD Forum."

That last part is a pretty clear indication that final approval was not granted, contrary to our earlier report based on industry news that cited sources with a stake in the format.

Sorry to rain on your wishful thinking parade with terrible, terrible facts. Nice to see you all voting my posts down though - it's lovely to know that anything you just don't want to believe is easily removed by reporting to mods, no matter how rationally argued.
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post #18 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 10:55 AM
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Why not save the arguing till TL51 discs are actually released (if ever) and are proven to either work or not work on current and older HD DVD players? No matter what ANYONE here says, the fact is we simply dont know. Anything else is speculation, wishful thinking and FUD.
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post #19 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

That was LAST YEAR. The fact that the DVD Forum has approved final specifications of HD DVD ROM51 speaks volumes, imo.

You're correct, on November 17th 2007 the 2.0 standard was approved. No question there.

But that's not the information I was pointing too... it was more the 'Toshiba declined to comment on it's compatibility" aspect of the story.

Toshiba continues to decline comment on it's compatibility and since ratification of the 2.0 standard haven't made any official indication.

If you can provide anything more than your opinion to suggest this isn't the case I'm very happy to read it.
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post #20 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 11:50 AM
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Oh, and I'll also add that I found out with most spokespeople if you say TL-51 you will be met with blank stares. But if you say triple-layer 51GB discs they immediately know what you are asking about.
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post #21 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post

Actually, I asked a Toshiba spokesperson at CES who seemed to know a lot about TL-51 compatibility and theSimplePanda's comments seem to be correct. The spokesman told me they really need to do more real-world testing before they would be able to say for sure what players will be compatible.

He said they needed to take discs created on a real production line and test them on all the various players. Anything else is just theory. I was told they were probably 3 months or so away from being able to run those tests but he made it clear that was an estimate). So until then I assume we won't know for sure about compatibility.

"They" needed to do the same thing when CD ROMs went from 650MB to 700MB. I am confident that if TL51 is released we will all be pleased with performance and compatibility.

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post #22 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 12:00 PM
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Regardless of speculation, TL51 has not been confirmed to work or not to work with HD DVD players already in the market.

That means NO ONE here knows for sure whether it does or doesn't work. If they tell you otherwise, they're full of it.

We'll know when Toshiba, the HD DVD group or the DVD forum decides to go public with more details about the disc.
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post #23 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

"They" needed to do the same thing when CD ROMs went from 650MB to 700MB. I am confident that if TL51 is released we will all be pleased with performance and compatibility.

Very different. Expanding to 17GB/layer is only one of the issues. Adding a third layer entirely is completely different.
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post #24 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

Very different. Expanding to 17GB/layer is only one of the issues. Adding a third layer entirely is completely different.

Yes, it is, but the fact remains that testing needs to be done. Like I said, I am confident that current players will be able to play TL51 with a simple firmware update.

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post #25 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 04:21 PM
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off topic posts removed.

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post #26 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSimplePanda View Post

That movie list is a tad suspicious...

Saving Private Ryan and A.I. are both Spielberg films.

Spielberg has explicitly stated that his films will not be released on HD DVD.

Sounds like someone over there has an overactive imagination.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see SPR @ 1080p but I just don't see it happening...

Spielberg made no such claim.....if you are going to quote someone please post a link.

May HD be with you always

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post #27 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Yes, it is, but the fact remains that testing needs to be done. Like I said, I am confident that current players will be able to play TL51 with a simple firmware update.

You are right.......I have a disc that you can get here that prove the concept http://oldies.com/product-review/36451M.html. It is only a DL disc but it is a Hybrid non the less.

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post #28 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

When 51gb was announced, I am pretty darn sure I seen official statements of backward compatibility.

We have yet to receive confirmation of any form of compatibility for TL51. In other words -- no official announcement yet!
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post #29 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJedi View Post

Spielberg made no such claim.....if you are going to quote someone please post a link.

I did. See above, but:

Quote:


So what's the deal? We put that question to the source for all things Spielberg -- his longtime spokesman and DreamWorks marketing exec Marvin Levy. Speaking exclusively with High-Def Digest, Levy confirmed Spielberg's active support of Blu-ray with the selection of 'Close Encounters' for his next-gen debut.

"It was important to Steven that if any of his films were to be released [first] on high-definition, that it would be a classic," said Levy. "Steven is big supporter of Blu-ray, and chose 'Close Encounters' to be the first of his films on either format."

Spielberg approved the new high-def transfer made for the film, and among the Blu-ray's supplements is a new introduction recorded by the director specifically for the release, as well as a storyboard comparison.

Levy further clarified the Paramount/DreamWorks press release, saying that "...his movies, like 'Saving Private Ryan' and 'War of the Worlds,' are not included in that deal. They are not exclusive to HD DVD, nor [are they] planned for that format at this time.'"

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post #30 of 34 Old 01-23-2008, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post

Yes, it is, but the fact remains that testing needs to be done. Like I said, I am confident that current players will be able to play TL51 with a simple firmware update.

You keep saying that.

The problem is you don't offer anything other than wishful thinking.

Do you have any evidence, comment, indication or otherwise to back up your opinion?
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