Dolby TrueHD versus DTS HD? Which is better? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I was archiving my Top Gun HD DVD to my HTPC and came across my first non Dolby Soundtrack. I have been selecting the TrueHD on my HTPC as it sounds better than DD+ in every test on my system.

I ran side by side comparisons of this new codec against TrueHD and could not find any difference. I almost thing the DTS HD is better but I am not sure.

I play most of the movies first on my HD-A3 and then archive them to my HTPC in case something were to happen to the disk like a scratch and usually strip it to just the movie and one soundtrack.

I am currently only outputing via 5.1 analog out to my Onkyo 305 receiver (to my surprise, I Nero 8 outputs the sound better to 5.1 when transcoding 6.1 TrueHD to 5.1 out on the fly - I guess it makes sense as this is often closer to the original soundtrack and is less lossy).

This is for playback on an HTPC so what player I have is irrelevant as I am using Nero 8 which is capable up to 8.1 currently.

I am wondering which I should pick given the choice?

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post #2 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:07 PM
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I have only sampled my copy of Top Gun, but I did notice that the DTS track was more satisfying (for the brief sampling).

I'm curious, how are you able to output TrueHD via your HTPC?
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post #3 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5harkology View Post

I have only sampled my copy of Top Gun, but I did notice that the DTS track was more satisfying (for the brief sampling).

I'm curious, how are you able to output TrueHD via your HTPC?

Nero Showtime 4 (Nero 8) with the BLuray plugin AND the multichannel plugin allow it decode DTSHD and TrueHD and send it out analog out.

Unfortunately, it will not pass along the bitstream untouched like PowerDVD can, but it will decode and send it out analog. There is a noticeable performance hit when TrueHD is selected as my sound card cannot handle it so it is all done by CPU and Nero's software decoders.

Alot of people who use Nero, do so because of this reason - the audio. It is the HTPC alternative audio-wise to the XA2/A35. Most folks who get their drive with PowerDVD OEM end up using that package and never check out Nero.

The other two advantages that Nero has in conjunction with AnyDVD is that is will play stripped EVO files. So I can rip Top Gun down to just its VC1 file (EVO) and get rid of all the rest. If you want, you can also use Nero Vision to then burn the EVO to a pare of DVD-9 disks for playback in a SA player (Or a PS3 HDAVC file).

But I just keep them on a media server that I have in the house that can then output it to any computer on the server.

I think in many ways it is actually more convenient than SD DVDs in that the EVOs can be kept in an all inclusive file that is easy to work with. I usually put the SDs in ISOs which is a little more complicated to work with.

[b]I noticed the DTS-HD did sound better but then realized I was comparing it to the DD+. It seemed about the same as the TrueHD. I decided to go with TrueHD as this seems to be the more popular of the two.

Strange thing is Nero calls lists TrueHD as 6.1 channel while it list the DTSHD as discreet 7 channel. Interesting.

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post #4 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:37 PM
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How are you getting the rare DTS-HD audio on TopGun?
The specs only shows:

Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/3.5Mbps), DTS-ES 6.1 Matrixed Surround (768kbps) and Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround (768kbps).

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post #5 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:42 PM
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There's a ton of topics already on this... but to answer your question...

TrueHD is better than DTS-HD because TrueHD is lossless and DTS-HD is a core of DTS-HD-MA...

Now if you meant to say DTS-HD-MA which is also lossless, TrueHD and DTS-HD-MA would be identical because they would both offer a bit-for-bit reproduction of the master.

If you want to go into the technical aspects, DTS-HD-MA would likely be the superior lossless codec because the core is built into it, whereas with TrueHD, a companion DD+ track would have to also be put on the disc. That would mean the TrueHD+DD+ track would assume more space than a single DTS-HD-MA track with DTS-HD core included.

Simple enough?

Edit: Nevermind, I completely misread the OP's post indicating he was selecting a processing method to archive his discs to a PC. What I stated was good info, but entirely unreleated to the OP's question.

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post #6 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleM View Post

How are you getting the rare DTS-HD audio on TopGun?
The specs only shows:

Dolby TrueHD 5.1 Surround (48kHz/24-bit/3.5Mbps), DTS-ES 6.1 Matrixed Surround (768kbps) and Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround (768kbps).

It says DTS-HD when I use EVO Demux. Maybe the program is mislabeling it.

Nero reads it as dTS ES 7 channel discreet audio from the original.

If this is DTS ES, then which is better?

Isn't DTS (normal) 1.5 and AC3 is 768? why would DTS-ES 6.1 be only 768? or did you mistype that? Doesn't seem correct that DTS would be the same codec if it is a less efficient and less lossy than DD.

EDITED:

I double check. It is DTS 6.1 discreet and not DTS ES matrix. It is not DTS-HD (wonder why EVO Redux would label as such.. must be a software error but can't complain about a free program).

So then I guess the question is which is better. DTS ES 6.1 Discreet or Dolby TrueHD?

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post #7 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

It says DTS-HD when I use EVO Demux. Maybe the program is mislabeling it.

Nero reads it as dTS ES 7 channel discreet audio from the original.

If this is DTS ES, then which is better?

To answer your real question
It would seem to me that TrueHD is going to be superior. Both are being output as LPCM, but selecting TrueHD will at least give you lossless. I do beleive the program is misreading DTS-ES as DTS-HD. DTS-ES's only benefit would be a 6th channel, but since it's only a matrixed 6th channel, it really isn't going to add anything. Personally I'd encode from the cleaner of the two, which would definately be TrueHD.

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post #8 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

There's a ton of topics already on this... but to answer your question...

TrueHD is better than DTS-HD because TrueHD is lossless and DTS-HD is a core of DTS-HD-MA...

Now if you meant to say DTS-HD-MA which is also lossless, TrueHD and DTS-HD-MA would be identical because they would both offer a bit-for-bit reproduction of the master.

If you want to go into the technical aspects, DTS-HD-MA would likely be the superior lossless codec because the core is built into it, whereas with TrueHD, a companion DD+ track would have to also be put on the disc. That would mean the TrueHD+DD+ track would assume more space than a single DTS-HD-MA track with DTS-HD core included.

Simple enough?

Edit: Nevermind, I completely misread the OP's post indicating he was selecting a processing method to archive his discs to a PC. What I stated was good info, but entirely unreleated to the OP's question.

Ah, so TrueHD is still better. DTS-HD Master=TrueHD>DTS-ES 6.1 discreet>DD+>DTS>DD>Neo:6>Dolby Surround?

I wonder why they would carry all 3 codecs? It would make sense to carry the two Dolbys but not a third one in between. I guess that is why this is the first time I have seen this on an HD DVD. Usually there is just DD+ and sometimes also a TrueHD.

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post #9 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

I wonder why they would carry all 3 codecs? It would make sense to carry the two Dolbys but not a third one in between. I guess that is why this is the first time I have seen this on an HD DVD. Usually there is just DD+ and sometimes also a TrueHD.

I agree. I think Paramount just decided to throw it in there because they had already mastered a DTS-ES track for the SD-DVD Collectors Edition and they had some extra space on the HD-DVD release so they threw it in as a bonus for DTS fans.

I have compared these tracks though and the DTS is a bit different from the TrueHD and DD+. One point specifically is at the very start when they are launching planes off the carrier. On second thought you might just want to do a comparison and choose which sounds best to your ears. I was just clarifying which is "technically" superior or at least closest to the master. Just remember to equalize volumes when comparing. If I recall correctly, the DTS track is recorded much louder than the dolby tracks.

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post #10 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

DTS-HD is a core of DTS-HD-MA

Is it really? How come the core is 1.5mbps and DTS-HD has a variable rate, often above 2mbps? I always assumed there was a core taken from DTS-HD also.
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

If you want to go into the technical aspects, DTS-HD-MA would likely be the superior lossless codec because the core is built into it, whereas with TrueHD, a companion DD+ track would have to also be put on the disc. That would mean the TrueHD+DD+ track would assume more space than a single DTS-HD-MA track with DTS-HD core included.

The remastered Blu-ray version of The Fifth Element has a TrueHD track on it, but no DD track. If you output over optical or coax, there is a 640kbps DD "core" that plays instead, just like DTS-HD MA has a hidden "core". They're practically identical on all fronts.
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-18-2008, 11:18 PM
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The remastered Blu-ray version of The Fifth Element has a TrueHD track on it, but no DD track. If you output over optical or coax, there is a 640kbps DD "core" that plays instead, just like DTS-HD MA has a hidden "core". They're practically identical on all fronts.

TrueHD doesn't have a core. What you're hearing via S/PDIF is a separate parallel Dolby Digital soundtrack. This is included because TrueHD decoding is not mandatory on Blu-ray players, necessitating the presence of a separate track for full legacy support. This 'hidden' Dolby Digital track is not selectable from any menu, which is standard practice for Sony. Warner Brothers approaches this scenario slightly differently by allowing the Dolby Digital track to be directly selected from the menu.

DTS-HD MA, on the other hand, is based on an integral legacy core. Blu-ray mandates DTS decoding, therefore a separate soundtrack is not required as this core can be used whenever the hardware is unable to decode DTS-HD MA in its entirety. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are therefore quite different.
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post #13 of 15 Old 03-19-2008, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WirelessGuru View Post

I agree. I think Paramount just decided to throw it in there because they had already mastered a DTS-ES track for the SD-DVD Collectors Edition and they had some extra space on the HD-DVD release so they threw it in as a bonus for DTS fans.

I have compared these tracks though and the DTS is a bit different from the TrueHD and DD+. One point specifically is at the very start when they are launching planes off the carrier. On second thought you might just want to do a comparison and choose which sounds best to your ears. I was just clarifying which is "technically" superior or at least closest to the master. Just remember to equalize volumes when comparing. If I recall correctly, the DTS track is recorded much louder than the dolby tracks.

Maybe that is why it sounds better because it is just a little louder?

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post #14 of 15 Old 03-19-2008, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADBNZ View Post

TrueHD doesn't have a core. What you're hearing via S/PDIF is a separate parallel Dolby Digital soundtrack. This is included because TrueHD decoding is not mandatory on Blu-ray players, necessitating the presence of a separate track for full legacy support. This 'hidden' Dolby Digital track is not selectable from any menu, which is standard practice for Sony. Warner Brothers approaches this scenario slightly differently by allowing the Dolby Digital track to be directly selected from the menu.

DTS-HD MA, on the other hand, is based on an integral legacy core. Blu-ray mandates DTS decoding, therefore a separate soundtrack is not required as this core can be used whenever the hardware is unable to decode DTS-HD MA in its entirety. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are therefore quite different.


You see this alot. There have been tracks that I never knew existed until I ripped it.

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post #15 of 15 Old 03-30-2008, 02:52 PM
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so is there no technical superiority between Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio? and if there is a difference, is it noticeable to someone who is not an audiophile?
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