Grand Prix (1966) comparison *PIX* - AVS Forum
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I have an embarrassing confession to make, despite the great reviews among AVS users about this HD DVD release I ignored it. Even after breaking the 350 titles I bought for this format I still don't have the interest to check the movie out until whitestang06 posted some screenshots from this movie. After seeing that I opened up another browser window and bought the title right there and then.

The movie shot using the Super Panavison 70 is simply breathtaking. This movie is what "Despicable" Patton should have been. No excessive DNR. No waxy faces. High frequency detail preserved. If I'm going to mention faults on this transfer it will be some dirt and sctratches visible on some scenes and minor DNR.

If you notice the closeup shots of the female leads they are a lot smoother than their male counterparts. This is how they shot the actresses BTW Nothing too distracting.

In two weeks I have watched this classic movie three times, once on my 1080p 120" projector and twice on my Dell 24" 1920 x 1200 LCD. I can confidently say without hesitation this is the best in overall PQ among the restored classic catalog HD title, the sharpness, detail, colors, contrast and consistency is unmatched. Surpassing my personal top pick The Searchers The VC-1 14.44 mbps encode is even better considering the bitrate is actually lower and the movie itself is one hour longer One would think there will be a lot of obvious macroblocking with the racing footage but I see no major issues at all. Very nice. I am an IRL fan so I can appreciate the nuances this movie is trying to show and it succeeded masterfully. The racing scenes and angles used are even better that the IRL racing HD broadcast we are seeing lately. Go Danica!

This is how its done folks. This is how our classic movies should look like. None of that artificial revisionist nonsense. If you are using a projector to watch this prepare for a cinematic experience.

Thank you very much for this recommendation. After the DNR and EE turds we have lately I am glad I am finally able to watch this movie.




PS:
Lawrence of Arabia is also Super Panavision 70.
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:04 PM
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More vintage HD-DVD. You're cranking them out, Xylon.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

More vintage HD-DVD. You're cranking them out, Xylon.

This title is a "diamond in the rough"

I love this movie.
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Old 07-28-2008, 09:14 PM
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Looks great. It's been sitting on my shelf for a while (can't seem to find the time to watch a three hour or so movie these days). You've motivated me to find the time soon.
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Old 07-28-2008, 09:29 PM
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Yep, its a good one to see James Garner in, back in his prime.

It's a bummer our favorites have to get older, but at least they are captured on film to watch as we get older ourselves.

And this one looks terrific!

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Old 07-28-2008, 10:25 PM
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This is one amazing looking film, however there is that one speck of dirt that is in the center of the screen that runs for a good portion of the second half of the film IIRC, just drove me nuts when I was watching it for like half an hour I thought there was a defect in my screen LOL.
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Old 07-28-2008, 10:41 PM
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Great work ! For me Grand Prix is the best large format release so far together with The Searchers and the only one without any glaring weaknesses.

Having watched it theatrically in 70mm I still think it could be more detailed and with sharper edge transitions, plus it looks a little bit too clean to me. Still the best we have so far among large format films, especially after disappointments like Spartacus, Mutiny on the Bounty and Patton.

@Xylon: There is a new 70mm print out there, you might try to convince the 70mm theater next to you to show it
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Old 07-28-2008, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Crank up the bitrate, dial down the DNR a bit and some more cleaning up and you got yourself a transfer that can rival the current TIER 0 titles.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

Great work ! For me Grand Prix is the best large format release so far together with The Searchers and the only one without any glaring weaknesses.

That is one of the things I was looking for. When I looked at the bitrates I was so sure there will be discernible macroblocking during fast action scenes. Fortunately I was proven wrong
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Old 07-29-2008, 12:36 AM
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Warner is the king of moderate bit-rate VC-1 encodes. They seem to put out seemingly flawless image quality at levels were others would come up short.

Quote:


Grand Prix VC-1 2:55:44 20,224,235,520* 15.34 ~14.44 DDPlus 5.1 640Kbps



It is funny how they left quite a bit of empty space on the disc for such a long movie.
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Old 07-29-2008, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Crank up the bitrate, dial down the DNR a bit and some more cleaning up and you got yourself a transfer that can rival the current TIER 0 titles.

Yep, this could look a bit rougher and more detailed. And I am not that much against a little dirt and scratches but a speck of dirt that stays in place for a quarter of the film should not get by unnoticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

That is one of the things I was looking for. When I looked at the bitrates I was so sure there will be discernible macroblocking during fast action scenes. Fortunately I was proven wrong

Yes, the movements look very good, impressive what can be done given the bitrate used.

Looking at the size of the movie on HD-DVD there clearly is enough space on a DL Blu-Ray disc to double the bitrate for the video stream and to also move from DD+ to Dolby TrueHD, so we could get addititional grain and detail and lossless audio. Until such a "Superbit" Blu-Ray gets released I will be happy with my HD-DVD
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:16 AM
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Nice shots

Hopefully, one day i'll be able to get a PJ to fully to this film justice.

Somehow, I don't think 37" of Plasma qualifies



Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

PS: Lawrence of Arabia is also Super Panavision 70.

Fingers crossed for a stunning HD release of this stunning movie...
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:10 PM
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Today I looked into my favourite forum to look up the up and coming 70mm festival that I want to attend and there was a scan of the German premiere 70mm copy of Grand Prix !
The scan unfortunately is less than full HD resolution (1123 horizontal pixels) but I think it is still interesting.

I do not have information as to how exactly it was scanned and how the colors were reconstructed but let's just say that even at the small picture size used it looks quite a bit more spectacular than the HD-DVD cap that I am posting for comparison.

so first we have the HD-DVD:




and then the 70mm scan



Having watched this exact print I can say that the scan is pretty much representative of how the print looked to me minus the colors and it seems a bit edgy although the edges did seem almost artificially sharp in the cinema, too. The print of course was more pinkish but still with all colors present. My first thought (this was my first movie in 70mm) was that this was by far the sharpest and most detailed film presentation I have ever witnessed, the detail seemed unreal sitting less than one screen width away from the screen !
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Too edgy. Like the sharpness is cranked up. The HD DVD however retained most of the details. I personally think the 70mm needs some cleaning up (based on that photo).

The 70mm is just too much of a good thing for HD disc format I guess. I doubt we will see any of the original HF detail from those prints preserved for home consumption.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:30 PM
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Not a very accurate comparison but it's still interesting. I like how that guy has a different jacket on.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Too edgy. Like the sharpness is cranked up. The HD DVD however retained most of the details. I personally think the 70mm needs some cleaning up (based on that photo).

The 70mm is just too much of a good thing for HD disc format I guess. I doubt we will see any of the original HF detail from those prints preserved for home consumption.

It is indeed too edgy, but the look of the 70mm print while less edgy than the scan of it was closer to this edgy look than to the look of the HD-DVD. From my experience 70mm looks a bit edgy as we are not used to these sharp edge transitions that we see in 70mm movies, standard 35mm looks softer and is the look we are used to.

This is a premiere print that probably was projected more than a hundred times and it is also over 40 years old so it certainly is not as new, but for a direct scan I think that it is pretty clean. Too bad it is not at least 1920 pixels wide.

I agree on the last bit of detail - we will not get it on Blu-Ray, but we should at least get all that is possible within the limits of the format.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Not a very accurate comparison but it's still interesting. I like how that guy has a different jacket on.

Well, I managed to get the exact frame - as you can see the guy still wears a different jacket , or it was rather somebody who decided to toss away some detail
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:53 PM
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How does the full 1080p capture look though?
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

How does the full 1080p capture look though?

Of the HD-DVD ? Very much the same, but I cannot post it due to a file size limit on imageshack. Maybe Xylon can help, apparently he can post large files at photobucket.
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Not a very accurate comparison but it's still interesting. I like how that guy has a different jacket on.

I didn't notice until you mentioned it, I was busy looking at the babe in the front row with the stopwatch.

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Old 07-30-2008, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

Of the HD-DVD ? Very much the same, but I cannot post it due to a file size limit on imageshack. Maybe Xylon can help, apparently he can post large files at photobucket.

I can help
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I can help

You got mail
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:30 AM
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Wow ! Would I love to see that kind of reproduction in my home. I'd love to see Patton comparisons like this.

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Old 07-30-2008, 07:50 AM
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Something has gone wrong on the scan or downconversion of the 70mm scan.

Since you shouldnt have a moirepattern if its done correctly.

Good movies are as rare as an on topic discussion.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Something has gone wrong on the scan or downconversion of the 70mm scan.

Since you shouldnt have a moirepattern if its done correctly.

This probably was a scan with a much higher resolution and it was scaled down to its final size by way of a not so sophisticated method.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post

This probably was a scan with a much higher resolution and it was scaled down to its final size by way of a not so sophisticated method.

So wich one has the most correct information?

The jacket looks completly different in the 2 screenshoots. And my guess is that it has to do with the print quality combined with the poor scanning. The pattern is to edgy.

How does that guys jacket look in other scenes?

Good movies are as rare as an on topic discussion.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Wow ! Would I love to see that kind of reproduction in my home.

Me too


Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I'd love to see Patton comparisons like this.

Yep, a scan of a 70mm release print downrezzed carefully to 1080p would completely annihilate the version we have now.
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