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post #541 of 1475 Old 06-15-2006, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GodobeHD View Post

Why so much workaround with Ulead if you are dealing with Mpeg files directly from Sony HDV.

Actually, what I am trying to burn to HD-DVD is the edited video from a trip. I have added music and titles, kept just the best parts, adjusted brightness and contrast. So I need to make that edited video into a format the VS+ likes.

I did try burning The Magic of Flight. The download I have is 23.976 fps 1440x1080p. I used VS10+. I was able to create the HD-DVD folders and burn them to DVD with 1 Step DVD Copy. The video is quite jerky, which I expect is a result of converting 23.976 fps to 29.97 fps.

Following this thread, it seems like people are having three different problems. I suspect the causes and cures may be different for the different problems. It might be helpful as we share ideas to be specific about which problem we are discussing. Here are the problems as I understand them:

1) Video won't encode at all. I haven't had this problem, so I don't know much about it. Some of the posts about insufficient hard drive space would seem to go along with this symptom.

2) Constant jerky video - several times per second. That is what I saw in the case of The Magic of Flight. In this case, I believe it was the difference in frame rates. Others have mentioned they are having field order problems.

3) Occasional skips in scenes with lots big changes from one frame to the next. This is the one that has been causing me trouble. I have fixed this by running my video through Womble.

Grandmaster, the current Ulead products only support 1920x1080 and 1440x1080. You would need convert your 720p video to one of those formats. I haven't tried it, but I do expect that if you added a valid VIDEO_TS folder, you would end up with a disks that plays HD on the HD-DVD player and SD on a regular dVD player.

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post #542 of 1475 Old 06-15-2006, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

With regards the dummy VIDEO_TS folder you guys are using, has any one tried to put a normal DVD Video title set in it? Does it run on a normal DVD player? So could we conceivably have the same footage mirrored in SD and HD? And how about WMV-HD run from a DVD-ROM partition too? Could we actually have a triple-playback disk with this format?

I don't know about your other questions, but I believe that MF5 only deals with MPEG files, so WMV_HD is not currently an option. Once they release their HD Pack (who knows when that will be), it may support other options.

I had so much trouble with MF5 that I'm waiting for an update before I buy, so I cannot give you video a try. You could download their trial version and give it a shot. Then go over to Best Buy or whereever and see what happens.
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post #543 of 1475 Old 06-15-2006, 09:05 PM
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No, you don't understand... I mean:

1. VIDEO_TS folder plays on normal DVD player
2. HD-DVD folder plays on HD-DVD player
3. WMV content in DVD-ROM portion autoruns when inserted into a PC drive

With regards Ulead only supporting the two 1080 line formats, how come people are saying they've had success running 720p material?
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post #544 of 1475 Old 06-15-2006, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

No, you don't understand... I mean:

1. VIDEO_TS folder plays on normal DVD player
2. HD-DVD folder plays on HD-DVD player
3. WMV content in DVD-ROM portion autoruns when inserted into a PC drive

With regards Ulead only supporting the two 1080 line formats, how come people are saying they've had success running 720p material?

Yup, that's what I said. If a DVD has a HD-DVD folders and standard DVD folders, the HD-DVD player will play it as an HD-DVD. A standard DVD player will play the contents of the VIDEO_TS folder as a standard DVD.

The VS10+ and MF5 will only write 1440x1080 and 1920x1080. I believe they will accept 720 p as input and convert it to one of the other formats. I'm not sure how good the conversion is, which is why I thought you might want to convert it yourself.

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post #545 of 1475 Old 06-15-2006, 09:44 PM
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I could convert to 1080i, certainly. I do the conversion myself using a simple AviSynth script. An up-conversion to 1920x1080 would introduce 20% more 'artificial' resolution though, so while I am not usually keen on any kind of anamorphic pixel stretching, for the sake of less artefacting, I may well opt for 1440x1080. The only issue then would be one of getting the field order right (although I think my editing environment could do this for me instead of AviSynth come to think of it).

Unfortunately I'm currently in Israel so no HD-DVD players here (although we do have Best Buy funnily enough!). Perhaps if I authored a 'triple format' disk on Ulead trial edition, that mirrors my Xbox Live Marketplace content in SD, HD-DVD, and WMV for PC, one of you guys could download the 500mb-ish image and give it a whirl?

I'm very excited by the work you guys have done
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post #546 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 12:51 AM
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I'd like to help, grandmaster. Maybe I can now. I don't know exactly what happened, but I'm getting pretty consistent results with movies, even those edited with HDTVtoMPEG2. Most movies now seem to work. I will try to figure what happened and report back, but right now I'm simply enjoying the success.

I was able to get a successful burn to HD DVD (double layer DVD+R) of Robots, the animated film, and a two parter of Star Wars III Revenge of the Sith (double layer and single layer DVD+R). That's the movie recorded from HBO this past week.

There's a report of a color space error with the Toshiba A1. It does not handle color space properly for HD through DVI. Anyone using a Lumagen external video processor can download a firmware update that fixes the error. It can be applied to indivdual Lumagen inputs. Lumagen owners can download the update from their web site.

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post #547 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 03:04 AM
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OK, I have the Ulead software and initial tests are positive.

While it definitely doesn't like my 720p/60 MPEG2, and it re-encodes it terribly, it is very tolerant indeed of my own Procoder 2-generated 30mbps 1080i file, and only wants to re-encode the audio. Presumably to turn it from MPEG2 into PCM. I was worried that since the bandwidth exceeds its own limit by a massive margin it would throw a hissy fit. Not so.

I'm also relatively surprised by the simplicity of the IFO and EVO structure. Renaming EVO to MPG allows the file to be opened by VirtualDub Mod. My guess is that with limited reverse-engineering we could probably get Ulead to author a disk and then replace any files it creates with non-standard files. Who knows - my 720p/60 MPEG might yet be playable.
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post #548 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

and only wants to re-encode the audio. Presumably to turn it from MPEG2 into PCM.

I could also help if you would like.

Have you tried going into settings on the HD-DVD burning screen, selecting audio, and changing it to MPEG and matching your bit rate? I'm not sure how these settings work when you have the option not to encode compliant files checked, but it might be worth a shot.

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post #549 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 05:50 AM
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I have a trial version and it seems like the disc burning option have been disabled. Is this right?
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post #550 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

There's a report of a color space error with the Toshiba A1... Anyone using a Lumagen external video processor can download a firmware update that fixes the error. It can be applied to indivdual Lumagen inputs.

I'm in the market for a video processor, so this is interesting. Does the Lumagen allow you to just do a color space conversion and then pass through a 1080i image?
Sorry to go off topic.
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post #551 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

I'm also relatively surprised by the simplicity of the IFO and EVO structure. Renaming EVO to MPG allows the file to be opened by VirtualDub Mod. My guess is that with limited reverse-engineering we could probably get Ulead to author a disk and then replace any files it creates with non-standard files. Who knows - my 720p/60 MPEG might yet be playable.

I've been thinking along the same lines, but don't have an idea where to start. An EVO is apparently a high definition VOB file. The question becomes, what is in an IFO file?
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post #552 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedtsc View Post

I have a trial version and it seems like the disc burning option have been disabled. Is this right?

Yes. The full version is the same way. You need to use the option to write files to your hard disk, add a VIDEO_TS folder with a dummy VIDEO_TS.VOB file, then use a different program to burn the folders to DVD. A lot of people are using Nero. I've been using 1 Click DVD Copy. There are full step by step instructions on page 7 of this thread. The step that I have needed to add to those procedures is to run the HDV video through Womble before importing it into Ulead. Otherwise I get periodic jerking in scenes with a lot of change between frames.

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post #553 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:11 AM
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I've had success with creating HD DVDs with VS 10+ that are encoded at 1280x1080i. VS 10+ does not re-encode the material to 1440 or 1920 and it plays beautifully on the A1. I have not created a 720p re-encoded to 1080i disc that didn't stutter lose sync etc. Ulead's 720p re-encode is TERRIBLE!!!

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post #554 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

I've been thinking along the same lines, but don't have an idea where to start. An EVO is apparently a high definition VOB file. The question becomes, what is in an IFO file?

IFO files, on DVD at least, are typically navigational pointers for the menu system, and also include a series of flags (eg, 4:3 or 16:9).
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post #555 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 1st on the Block View Post

I've had success with creating HD DVDs with VS 10+ that are encoded at 1280x1080i. VS 10+ does not re-encode the material to 1440 or 1920 and it plays beautifully on the A1. I have not created a 720p re-encoded to 1080i disc that didn't stutter lose sync etc. Ulead's 720p re-encode is TERRIBLE!!!

Ulead's hilarious 720p/60 to 1080i re-encode looks like it strips out half the frames and upscales them to 1920x1080 then encodes at a horrendous low CBR bitrate. I was almost weeping at what it did to my hard work.

For my project I have rescaled the video myself using AviSynth and encoded into a mega bitrate MPEG2 program stream with Canopus Procoder 2. Even my 2.0GHz Merom-powered laptop with PureVideo is having slowdown issues running this clip, so I'll be most intrigued to see what the Toshiba HD player does with it.
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post #556 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post

I'm in the market for a video processor, so this is interesting. Does the Lumagen allow you to just do a color space conversion and then pass through a 1080i image?
Sorry to go off topic.

I don't know this answer. I know once before that I was able to manipulate color with the Lumagen and still pass through a 720p signal without additional scaling, but I'm not sure how it's going to handle 1080i. I also haven't applied the update yet. The people at Lumagen are very good about supporting their products.

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post #557 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I was able to get a successful burn to HD DVD (double layer DVD+R) of Robots, the animated film, and a two parter of Star Wars III Revenge of the Sith (double layer and single layer DVD+R). That's the movie recorded from HBO this past week.

Joe: Isn't your Star Wars ROTS capture from a R5000 modded DISH box (and presumably a 1920x1080i file that VS10+ likes, unlike my pitiful HDLite 1280x1088i file from D* that VS10+ hates?)

HDTV Early Adopter
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post #558 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 08:03 AM
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Joseph, Joe - thanks for your offers on testing my own HD-DVD authoring.

You have PMs!
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post #559 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

IFO files, on DVD at least, are typically navigational pointers for the menu system, and also include a series of flags (eg, 4:3 or 16:9).

Do you have any more details? Also, would this be considered trade secrets? If you think it might be, could you point me to a few references? Don't want to break the forum rules.
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post #560 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

Joseph, Joe - thanks for your offers on testing my own HD-DVD authoring.

You have PMs!

I've PMed you. I can't get the link to work. I'm glad we have someone here on this thread who has more MPEG expertise than I do. I look forward to seeing your video. I have an Athlon 64 x2 and can get even MPEG4 (H.264) video to play smoothly with the CoreAVC plug-in (with a Matrox Parhlelia PCIe video card).

My copy of Star Wars III is REALLY good. That broadcast generated hundreds of posts here on AVS. I hope HBO broadcasts more such films in OAR. Even with a low bitrate, the quality is exceptional.

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post #561 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 09:17 AM
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I very much doubt it's a case of trade secrets at all! A search of forum.doom9.org might help but really and truly you need an intimate knowledge of reverse engineering DVD to know what to do. Right now, I have no idea.

@Joe: it's still uploading - 1hr 5mins remaining.
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post #562 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalfx View Post

STEP 8-
Open up Nero 6.6 and select Nero Burning Rom. Select DVD-Video from left menu.
Next, click the "NEW" box.

STEP 9-
The left half of the next screen is your new DVD, the right half is you files. Find the HDDVD_TS folder you created in step 7 from the right side and drag it over to the left (Your new HD DVD). Notice that the option to burn the DVD is ghosted, preventing you from creating the new HD DVD...no problem, lets go to step 10.

STEP 10-
Go to your desktop and create a new text file. To do this right click on the desktop and select NEW. Then select TEXT DOCUMENT. Now right click this file and select "rename". Rename the file "VIDEO_TS.VOB" and drag it into to Nero screen. You need to drop it into the folder "VIDEO_TS" (it has the red folder icon).

Now notice what just happened....the "BURN THE CURRENT COMPILATION" icon has become un-ghosted. MIRACLE! WOW!

STEP 11-
Burn the damn DVD

STEP 12-
Put the DVD in the Toshiba HDA1 HD-DVD Player

STEP 13-
WOW...it works!


Would this work for Nero Express?
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post #563 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 01:27 PM
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For those of you able to create ISO files from within Ulead, are you actually able to burn them and read the directory structure on a PC? I'm burning them in Alcohol 120% and I'm just making coasters
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post #564 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

For those of you able to create ISO files from within Ulead, are you actually able to burn them and read the directory structure on a PC? I'm burning them in Alcohol 120% and I'm just making coasters

I downloaded and burned your ISO file. It fired up without issue on a regular DVD player and in the Toshiba A1. The Toshiba didn't have any trouble playing the video or audio. The SD DVD version looks like it's letterboxed. I had to zoom it out to fill the screen.

Looks like a typical Sunday drive in Boston. Where's all the action?

I guess the only question remaining is whether you can produce a triple purpose disc with DVD ROM content.

I can't burn the ISO files within my version of Movie Factory 5, but others are doing it routinely, usually using Nero or DVD Decryptor to burn the ISO file out to DVD.

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post #565 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 10:34 PM
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Joe,

I have another report via PM from Joe Linn of the video skipping during HD playback and he said he had the same thing before running videos through Womble. Does it run as smoothly as the standard def version for you?

I have no idea what Womble is supposed to do, but any kind of further processing will likely degrade picture quality so I'd rather tweak the original encoding profile.

I would foresee no problem adding DVD-ROM content.

With regards the standard DVD version, I did do that in a rush, so maybe I forgot to set the anamorphic flag on

Thanks for your testing.
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post #566 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 11:22 PM
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Any other Toshiba users are welcome to try my HD-DVD file and report back:

www.digitalfoundry.org/hd-dvd.rar (size 320mb)

Download, unRAR with WinRAR, burn with Alcohol 120% or DVD Decrypter. For reference, you can watch the same video in standard def on any DVD player.

Would be very interested if someone with the RCA player can test it.

Non-HD-DVD owners - don't bother to download, this file will do nothing for you and just kill my bandwidth for no reason.
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post #567 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

Joe,

I have another report via PM from Joe Linn of the video skipping during HD playback and he said he had the same thing before running videos through Womble. Does it run as smoothly as the standard def version for you?

I have no idea what Womble is supposed to do, but any kind of further processing will likely degrade picture quality so I'd rather tweak the original encoding profile.

I would foresee no problem adding DVD-ROM content.

With regards the standard DVD version, I did do that in a rush, so maybe I forgot to set the anamorphic flag on

Thanks for your testing.

Grandmaster,

I don't believe the video skipped, but since it's computer generated graphics, it's possible. I didn't notice any audio interruptions. There were spots where the action seemed to go into a slow-mo mode, but I thought that was deliberate. The audio never slowed at all - very smooth. And the slow-mo worked in the sections where I saw it. Ask Joe where he had difficulties.

My simple test is always this - if Movie Factory 5 accepts the video quickly when I open the file, and if it proceeds quickly to copying files to the HD DVD folder at the final stage, I don't have issues. If the file loads in slowly and it has to convert during the stage at which it creates the HD DVD folder, it never works well. I always use Womble to convert from transport stream to program stream. I had too many issues with VidoeRedo and HDTVtoMPEG2. (Now that I'm having such success with movies, though, I'll probably revisit all that.)

As to what Womble does, I'm not sure. When it works it seems to do nothing to the video. When I create an HD DVD from a .ts file, my successes seem almost like straight copies of the file, with a simple reformatting from MPEG program stream to EVO. The resulting video plays on the Toshiba A1 with the same smoothness that it plays from the MyHD card in the computer.

Honestly, if I could get my R5000 and MyHD captures to play smoothly as .ts files from the computer's DVD drive, this process wouldn't be as attractive for me personally. It's less work just to do a few simple edits and save the videos to DVD as .ts data files. Unfortunately, I can't get the DVDs to play back smoothly, consistently doing it that way. Also, having these movies as HD DVD ensures I'm a little more likely to be able to play them into the future (that is, if HD DVD survives - not a sure bet). I'm also backing them up as regular .ts files, in case I need the original files down the line.

Again, I didn't have any trouble playing the file. The HD DVD looked very much like the SD DVD, in terms of how it moved. I didn't notice any discrepancies in movement between the two. I used DVD Decryptor to burn the ISO. Ordinarily, I use Nero when burning my HD DVDs, since I don't have the ISO or Blu-ray options in my version of the software. I suspect I'll get the same results burning the ISO with Nero, but I'll do that if you'd like.

By the way, I enjoyed your video. It reminded me, though, that I had talks with Electronic Arts about a game I worked on years ago. I still remember getting a phone call from them at home about a game concept I was working on with a friend. Unfortunately, we didn't have the resources to finish it and the basic concept later showed up in other games from other companies we sent the project to. We learned a valuable lesson about dealing with gaming companies. (Not Electronic Arts - they were genuinely interested. We just couldn't deliver it to them when we needed to and lost a window of opportunity.)

If I can help in any other way, let me know.

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post #568 of 1475 Old 06-16-2006, 11:50 PM
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That's great Joe, thanks. The only slight 'snag' during the authoring process was the conversion of the audio from MPEG2 to LPCM, presumably. This took seconds. Video was left untouched.

The only 'slowdown' (ie when it drops down from 60fps) will be in the last montage of crashes and explosions and even then it will be slight (and will be identically slower on the SD version).

It was certainly an interesting experience for me, since I've never done 720p/60 to 1080i/30 conversion before, although I did already have the 720p/60 to 480i/30 sorted out already.

It's also good to see the Toshiba having its throughput tested - 30mbps is towards the top-end of HD-DVD's theoretical maximum bandwidth.

I have the initial version of the Ulead software with the Blu-Ray module, so now I think I'll try a Blu-Ray version. It would be very amusing if both BR and HD-DVD titlesets could co-exist on the same disk
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post #569 of 1475 Old 06-17-2006, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandmaster View Post

That's great Joe, thanks. The only slight 'snag' during the authoring process was the conversion of the audio from MPEG2 to LPCM, presumably. This took seconds. Video was left untouched.

The only 'slowdown' (ie when it drops down from 60fps) will be in the last montage of crashes and explosions and even then it will be slight (and will be identically slower on the SD version).

It was certainly an interesting experience for me, since I've never done 720p/60 to 1080i/30 conversion before, although I did already have the 720p/60 to 480i/30 sorted out already.

It's also good to see the Toshiba having its throughput tested - 30mbps is towards the top-end of HD-DVD's theoretical maximum bandwidth.

I have the initial version of the Ulead software with the Blu-Ray module, so now I think I'll try a Blu-Ray version. It would be very amusing if both BR and HD-DVD titlesets could co-exist on the same disk

I was pleased to see that the Toshiba was able to play the file, too, with such a high bitrate. The one thing that still frustrates me is why .ts files don't play back smoothly with any computer DVD drive that I have, no matter if the disc is bitset to DVD-ROM or not. It seems to me that if the Toshiba's red laser can read the data from the DVD+R recordable disc I used to burn your test clip, a computer's DVD drive should be able to manage the much lower bitrate of movies and programs recorded from E*'s satcasts.

Joe Clark

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post #570 of 1475 Old 06-17-2006, 01:32 PM
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It looks pretty good. I just played it on my A1.

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