The official AVS Guide to HD DVD Authoring. - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 3176 Old 11-22-2006, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_tom View Post

Huh. I published my actual test results and the conclusion they compel, and you quotes specs as if that were some kind of counter-evidence? Makes no sense to me. Your argument in normal form is:
1.) A HDDVD player is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps
2.) XBox 360 addon is an HDDVD player
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.

That is not valid, you have made an obvious and basic error in logic. A correctly reasoned conclusion would be
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.
And, if premise 1 is true, then in addition to being correctly reasoned, this conclusion would also be true.

Perhaps you are also missing the point that the blue laser disc is the same diameter but has much greater linear data density than red laser media - on the order of double - and so will deliver that much more data at the same spin rate. Which makes it possible for the device to perform properly on commercial blue laser HDDVDs but have a problem at the margin on red laser media.

Right now this problem only manifests on the highest bitrate material I have and only for a small part of the disc. I'm pleased to see the note from Joseph about an upcoming patch, and I consider this issue something to be aware of rather than some kind of fatal flaw.

As for re-encoding everything in 720p60 - I'll get right on that when I have a spare 6 years of compute time to commit.

Red laser HD DVDs are spun at 3x speed, which could be the main issue here since both HD DVDs (ROM) and DVDs spin at 1x.

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post #812 of 3176 Old 11-22-2006, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxi View Post

I have seen a few posts suggesting that this process can now be done with just one software package - Pinnacle 10.7? Can anyone out there confirm this? If it is true, are there any thoughts about adding this option to the official guide?

Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSit...Studio10_7.htm
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Originally Posted by pinnaclesys.com View Post

HD DVD Authoring Pack - burn HD DVD-format on standard DVD media discs using standard DVD burners. Play in new HD DVD players (purchase required to activate this feature)

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post #813 of 3176 Old 11-22-2006, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSit...Studio10_7.htm

Pretty sure this is for HDV primarily, not ATSC video.

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post #814 of 3176 Old 11-23-2006, 07:37 AM
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Hi, I've been following tihs thread on and off for a while so forgive me if this was already covered. Are they are options, either current or on the horizon for commercial level H263 to Mpeg2 conversion OR burning support for us to use H264 files with the Toshiba? I checked and it looked like the last answer was "no" not for a while but figured it couldn't hurt to ask since more and more this codec is being used these days. Thanks!
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post #815 of 3176 Old 11-23-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSit...Studio10_7.htm

Might as well try it out; it's free after rebate at outpost.com at the moment:

Pinnacle Studio 10 FAR
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post #816 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 10:54 AM
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I picked up Pinnacle Studio 10 for free from Fry's today. If I get a chance this weekend I'll try it out to see if it works.

And if it doesn't, I also picked up Nero 7 Ultra for free. Heh, gotta love Black Friday.
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post #817 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 11:00 AM
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Thanks much to all for the guide and the discussion. I'm glad to have a way to save up my PBS shows and such.

The process has been working well for me as far as a process goes. I've been using the VideoReDo trial and found that much easier to deal with than MPEG-VCR.

I am having trouble on the xbox-360 HD-DVD when playing higher bitrate stuff. This one seems to work fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPEG2Repair View Post

File Size Processed: 5.66 GB, Play Time: 00h:53m:47s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 19.40 Mbps (14.23 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 57.96 KB/Frame, 0.23 Bits/Pixel.

But ones similar to this don't:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPEG2Repair View Post

File Size Processed: 3.12 GB, Play Time: 00h:37m:18s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.51 fps Telecine), 38.81 Mbps (11.28 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.16 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.

I get scenes every now and then where there is a slight stutter, then everything goes in "fast motion" for a second. It seems to only happen on fast moving scenes or scenes where there is a bunch of detail and movement which leads me to believe it is a high bitrate issue that the xbox add-on can't handle.

Should I be looking at the average or the max and does the Telecine make a difference?

I've tried a couple where I set the max value in the output of VideoReDo but that doesn't seem to affect it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

A source indicates that an impending update for the X-Box HD DVD add-on drive will fix most issues people are having with HD DVD material on red laser media. Please be a little patient and don't stress too much about it. We should hear something very soon.

Hey Joe,

Is this in reference to the udate that came out on Nov 22. or is there another in the works? Cause I'm hoping there is one coming that will "magically" fix my issues

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post #818 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RADIatiON View Post

I am having trouble on the xbox-360 HD-DVD when playing higher bitrate stuff. This one seems to work fine.
But ones similar to this don't:I get scenes every now and then where there is a slight stutter, then everything goes in "fast motion" for a second.

That sounds like the kind of problem folks have when there are gaps in the timecode, which has been discussed some earlier in the thread, including as I recall some suggestions for trying to find and fix.
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post #819 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_tom View Post

That sounds like the kind of problem folks have when there are gaps in the timecode, which has been discussed some earlier in the thread, including as I recall some suggestions for trying to find and fix.

Hey the_tom,
thanks for the input, but yes.. I've been through this thread a couple times already. I used MPEG2Repair to check the files first and none reported problems with gaps.
To add to the description, the video can play fine for long stretches when there is no heavy movement scenes. Then it immediately cleans up when back to low movement scenes.

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post #820 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 03:11 PM
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Quote:


File Size Processed: 3.12 GB, Play Time: 00h:37m:18s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.51 fps Telecine), 38.81 Mbps (11.28 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.16 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.

The peak bitrate is too high (38.81Mbps). HD-DVD specs max at ~30Mbps. Technically, any stream with a peak bitrate (audio + video) over ~30Mbps is out of spec and will [probably] not play on any HD-DVD player. If you want to get this stream onto an HD-DVD disc, you'll need to re-encode (ugh).
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post #821 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RADIatiON View Post

Thanks much to all for the guide and the discussion. I'm glad to have a way to save up my PBS shows and such.

The process has been working well for me as far as a process goes. I've been using the VideoReDo trial and found that much easier to deal with than MPEG-VCR.

I am having trouble on the xbox-360 HD-DVD when playing higher bitrate stuff.

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).
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post #822 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex View Post

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).

The source for this is found in all the usual locations. When I started reading this thread and experimenting I got some clips of various different things, tv shows mostly. I actually see a lot of stuff (mainly TV shows) with these numbers
Quote:


File Size Processed: 2.92 GB, Play Time: 00h:22m:03s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.84 fps Telecine), 65.00 Mbps (18.08 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 88.84 KB/Frame, 0.35 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.

Which brought up my question about which number to be looking at.. the 65.00 Mbps or the 18.08 Mbps Average.
I see that some have patched the header of files with a 65 listed down to something else and it has worked, but I think that's on stand-alone boxes, not the xbox add-on.

I actually have a file that is an HD demo that has these stats
Quote:


File Size Processed: 2.61 GB, Play Time: 00h:09m:05s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 65.00 Mbps (38.16 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 155.40 KB/Frame, 0.61 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 2/0 Channels (L, R), 48.0 kHz, 448 kbps.


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post #823 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex View Post

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).

I would guess its a Demo loop for a TV manufacturer....

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post #824 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex View Post

Might as well try it out; it's free after rebate at outpost.com at the moment:

Pinnacle Studio 10 FAR

cool,

BTW is it possible for you to add audio patching in HD-Patch ? I reall want to use some 640Kbs DD tracks without having ulead re encode the audio to 448kbs.

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post #825 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 10:17 PM
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Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.
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post #826 of 3176 Old 11-24-2006, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen View Post

Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.

I'm fuzzy on it, but I think we talked about this before. I don't believe this Pinnacle software works well or at all with regular ATSC files, just HDV. Someone started a thread on it earlier.

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post #827 of 3176 Old 11-25-2006, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RADIatiON View Post

...Hey Joe,

Is this in reference to the udate that came out on Nov 22. or is there another in the works? Cause I'm hoping there is one coming that will "magically" fix my issues

I hope its another patch in the works, because I just applied the Nov 20 patch, and I see no improvement in the near-the-hub-high-bitrate-playback-problems I have reported previously.
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post #828 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I'm fuzzy on it, but I think we talked about this before. I don't believe this Pinnacle software works well or at all with regular ATSC files, just HDV. Someone started a thread on it earlier.


Sorry, Joseph, but I am new at this. You say that Pinnacle may not work well with ATSC but just HDV. Does this mean that Pinnacle may be fine for personal home video but not good enough for use with recording TV shows/movies, etc.
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post #829 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxi View Post

Sorry, Joseph, but I am new at this. You say that Pinnacle may not work well with ATSC but just HDV. Does this mean that Pinnacle may be fine for personal home video but not good enough for use with recording TV shows/movies, etc.

I think that was the problem. Apparently, the Pinnacle software doesn't like video captured from sources like OTA and satellite/cable. I was excited when I read the other thread, but IIRC that's why we're not talking more about it.

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post #830 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texmex View Post

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).

This is bogus header info. The max bitrate for a sat transponder is around 40 Mbps using 8psk and 30 mbps using QPSK, and there are usually 3 HD channels per transponder. A QAM256 cable channel is also around 40 mbps and a QAM64 is around 28 mbps. The header info on Showtime HD here is 80mbps and the HDNet headers report 65mbps, don't know why they do this but Movie Factory is fooled by it.

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post #831 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent View Post

This is bogus header info. The max bitrate for a sat transponder is around 40 Mbps using 8psk and 30 mbps using QPSK, and there are usually 3 HD channels per transponder. A QAM256 cable channel is also around 40 mbps and a QAM64 is around 28 mbps. The header info on Showtime HD here is 80mbps and the HDNet headers report 65mbps, don't know why they do this but Movie Factory is fooled by it.

Mike T

So does that mean we should be "patching" all headers in these files or is there not a way to correct it? And if we can patch the headers how do we find out what the actual peak bitrate is seeing as MPEG2Repair is reporting this bogus header info? and... who invented liquid soap and why? (sorry )

As I am doing some more files I've come across some files that I have to cut up (DL's are expensive), has anyone come up with a nice way to "fade-out/fade-in"? Do the out and in clips need to match the bitrate/size of the file in question? And can VideoRedo handle it or is it something else entirely?

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post #832 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 03:38 PM
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MPEG2Repair will report the correct average bitrate. Just patch the bitrate in HDpatch to 25 or 30 mbps as you will not get any programming in North America from any broadcaster with a true peak bitrate higher than that. The highest bitrate I measure off the C-Band source feeds was 15-16 mbps and it is usually much lower than that. Dish was sending the HDNet channels with their full rate of around 18 mbps, but several months ago they added another feed to the transponder and now the bitrate is in the 12-14 mbps range or less.

I don't think that VideoRedo can do fades. When I was recording HDTV from cable, sometimes I would make several recordings of the same program, then use M2R to find the glitches and then use VideoRedo to cut out the good parts and re-assemble the program using the join menu in VideoRedo and then re-scanned with M2R and would have zero errors. I saved all files as .ts as i used D-VHS on some of them and VideoRedo was the ONLY program that I found that would write a correct transport stream, Womble would create thousands of errors when I tried it to edit transport streams.

I also made a HD demo file by taking about 35 clips from many sources with different bitrates and then joined them with VideoRedo and they played fine, they should all be the same resolution or you will get problems trying to play files with 1080i and 720P mixed together.

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post #833 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 04:33 PM
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Thanks for that info mtallent. You also reminded me of something I noticed while playing around that I want to mention.

I had found that importing a bunch of files (001.ts, 002.ts, etc.) into VideoRedo using the Joiner feature resulted for me with glitches where the files were joined together. Almost like there was dropped frams where each was joined with the next. So now I end up joining all the files together manually first using the DOS copy command.

It might have been a problem with the files themselves, I don't know, but I wanted to mention it in case anyone else has experienced something similar.

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post #834 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 05:17 PM
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I know this has probably been answered but I haven't been reading lately. Any way to burn MPEG4 discs yet?

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post #835 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RADIatiON View Post

Thanks for that info mtallent. You also reminded me of something I noticed while playing around that I want to mention.

I had found that importing a bunch of files (001.ts, 002.ts, etc.) into VideoRedo using the Joiner feature resulted for me with glitches where the files were joined together. Almost like there was dropped frams where each was joined with the next. So now I end up joining all the files together manually first using the DOS copy command.

It might have been a problem with the files themselves, I don't know, but I wanted to mention it in case anyone else has experienced something similar.

All my HD archives are segmented .ts files, so I do a lot of joining. VideoRedo works fine for joining segmented files, just highlight all the files and choose the "combine" option when loading into VideoRedo, not the join option. This will create a .VLST file which allows VR to process it as if it were just one big file. You can also combine them with HDTV2MPEG.

Mike T
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post #836 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalfreakNYC View Post

I know this has probably been answered but I haven't been reading lately. Any way to burn MPEG4 discs yet?

Not yet. Everyone wants this. Maybe in the next release.

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post #837 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent View Post

All my HD archives are segmented .ts files, so I do a lot of joining. VideoRedo works fine for joining segmented files, just highlight all the files and choose the "combine" option when loading into VideoRedo, not the join option. This will create a .VLST file which allows VR to process it as if it were just one big file. You can also combine them with HDTV2MPEG.

Mike T

Ditto. Don't know why they chose "join" and "combine" for options that work in such different ways. No chance for confusion, is there?

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post #838 of 3176 Old 11-26-2006, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Ditto. Don't know why they chose "join" and "combine" for options that work in such different ways. No chance for confusion, is there?

Ahhh.. well that explains it then. Silly me I was "joining" when I should of been "combining"

Thanks for all your help guys.

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post #839 of 3176 Old 11-27-2006, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen View Post

Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.

Not only do you need Pinnacle Studio Plus, but you also need the "Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack" which costs an extra $50...
http://pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us...oring+pack.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinnaclesys.com View Post

HD DVD Authoring pack Overview

The Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack lets you make HD DVD format movie discs with Pinnacle Studio Plus...

Use a standard DVD burner to burn HD DVD format discs straight to standard +/- R and RW DVD media...

How it works
The Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack is a locked feature that comes with the latest Pinnacle Studio Plus downloadable update and this feature can then be activated for $49.99 via an online transaction.

I already owned all of the products used here (videoredo and nero, and I bought MF5) and the discs work great... after you follow the steps documented here and make your first disc, it becomes quick and easy. So I don't think I'll spend another $80+ to try pinnacle.

I'm still having issues with the player locking up when skipping between clips, so I'm going to try "combining" my demo clips into one stream and then add chapter marks.
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post #840 of 3176 Old 11-27-2006, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent View Post

This is bogus header info.


Nah, the 38mbit will be the Samsung demo reel, which is CBR mpeg2. It runs off PCs in showrooms, so no broadcast restrictions, and looks fantastic.
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