Originally Posted by rdjam
And that is exactly my point. I'm sure I'll agree that NONE of the BD studios "intend" to "limit" their releases to BD 1.0 features, yet 99% of the releases so far DO "coincidentally" fall within BD 1.0 limits. It's the lowest common denominator - in fact I am having a hard time thinking of even ONE BD release that uses 1.1 or 2.0 features (aside from one game release).
I don't think you're actually reading what Talk is saying. Or perhaps you're just so stubbornly "jealous" of BD's tons of lossless audio that you can't let up in this thread. (Btw, I caught your jealous comment, but you should know I'm buying The Matrix Trilogy for my XA2.
) That I prefer my PS3 to my up-and-down XA2, well that's my opinion.
Regardless, here, I'll try to point out the obvious for you again. Talk is talking about studios' intent in the months ahead. I just read a report of Samsung readying the infrastructure for their BD Live service to connect to what must be a BD Live player they intend to release this year.
Now you need to stop looking at what's releasing right now when there are only 1.0 BD spec movies and think about what will come in the next few months as studios get their hands on prototype players with BD-J 1.1 and Live spec. I think Talk is right. I think this format is going to last a lot longer than one year. And I think as prices go down--which they inevitably will--the sales will skyrocket in comparison. I also happen to think the PS3 is inevitably going to support BD 1.1 spec, if not Live. In which case, I'd say 90% (or more) of players out there are going to be 1.1 spec as soon as Sony decides its important.
The day the PS3 becomes 1.1 compatible is the day "most" people will have it and the studios will have more than enough reason to go with BD-J. And any features that don't work simply won't show up in the menu. As evidenced by the flashlight in The Descent. I also happen to think that more players will sale after the October 2007 date than will sell before it.
I just don't think this is going to be the critical mass year. In which case, we're talking about early adopters who are missing out on PiP and a few online interactive features I'm not convinced will even compel the consumer who seems rarely interested in addition features to start with.
Yet many, many HD DVD releases are using advanced IME features in HDi that would require 1.1 or greater on BD in order to achieve. The lowest common denominator syndrome WILL be an issue for BD studios - it cannot be avoided.
I disagree. I think that a critical mass will easily happen after October 2007 in BD players. Especially if the PS3 is firmware updated to have 1.1, which I expect to happen as part of Sony's 1-2 punch this year. At that point, I see no reason for the studios to support the majority of players sold with 1.1.
Assuming Sony sees the PS3 as a vehicle to ensure BD 1.1 success (as they have so far with BD and the PS3), do you not agree that the majority of BD players after Oct 2007 will be 1.1? And do you not see the 1.0 players being bought only by those that are more or less early adopters (even a year later)? And is it not part of the cost of being an early adopter that you will wind up with hardware that needs to be replaced to get every feature?
Certainly, everyone who bought an XA1--if they were like you--would have cried out in pain at the XA2, which had 1080p and a faster drive 6 months later. Was the XA1 capable of 1080p? How confusing. BD has had 1080p from the beginning. BD has had LPCM from the beginning.
HD DVD has TrueHD 2.0 required. The spec requires nothing more for lossless. That's why about the same 15% support it as support IME/U-control.
Furthermore, any buyers of current BD standalone players will have to face up to the fact that they will NOT ever be able to use the 1.1 or 2.0 features which are likely to appear on some titles in the next 7 months.
Yes. Early adopters. Read above. Early adopters often find players releasing later that have more features. Superior features. Tempting features. But not features that everyone needs. Just some. The few that care so much about extra features like PiP (as adamantly as you do) will already know better. Everyone else won't give a fig.
Like the poll of BD owners who were asked if they cared about interactive features. Most... didn't. And that was on avsforum. Among the mass consumer, I bet the number's lower, given the mass consumer's apathy for "extras" in general.
I agree, but that is still more than 0% on BD, correct
And let's not forget that if you look only at HD DVD releases in the last 4 months, the percentage is even higher, which means more recent titles ARE using these features as standard.
Are you calling IME standard? I hope you're joking. Now lossless audio is nearly standard on BD. That's what I'd call "almost standard." IME/U-control/PiP... sparingly used.
Exactly! The ROI (return on investment) will suck for BD studios to author 1.1 and 2.0 features when only a small percentage of player owners can use these features. Therefore, BD studios will MORE frequently decide not to invest to money in it.
You're thinking of today. Everyone else is thinking of next year. Studios know--as most people with common sense know--that most players sold during holiday season this year and next year will be BD 1.1 or greater. Why do you think Training Day and Phantom of the Opera on HD DVD had TrueHD 5.1 tracks before Toshiba enabled 5.1 on the A1/XA1? Even despite the fact that the spec only requires 2.0 support. Because they were thinking of the future.
It will be no different for the studios in supporting BD-J 1.1. Because it's coming. And more players next year will have it than don't. And more players will sell next year than this year.
Because it may seem shallow to make a statement which says that Sun has no responsibility and that the manufacturers are responsible - when it turns out that Sun is in fact involved in doing this work for the manufacturers...
Sun designed the underlying language. It can help program the necessary software underlying. But BD-J requires the hardware to work. The hardware's not there. It doesn't work without the hardware. All the Sun work in the world wouldn't make the secondary video hardware be available for what the BDA wants. Sun is not magically delicious, they cannot make the hardware appear that isn't there yet.
I think most folks recognize that 1.1 and 2.0 features entails rather a lot more than just network support. But I do take your point that 100% of HD DVD players have network ports
(thanks to a single sensible "spec").
A sensible spec? Please. There are five hardware devices by different companies being shoehorned together with different software designs and hardware configurations being made to run the same spec. Meanwhile, HD DVD has one manufacturer behind all the devices (Toshiba). Toshiba even developed the hardware of the Xbox 360 add-on. Microsoft developed the HDi underlying for all devices out so far. Do you really think that if Panasonic and Pioneer released an HDi-capable HD DVD player that it would be as compatible as in the current scenario where one hardware manufacturer and one software manufacturer makes everything for every player?
It's a lot easier to keep everything compatible (and still you have problems with Children of Men, Hollywoodland, The Good Sheppard, etc.) with just one manufacturer of players than it is when you have several. Especially companies that traditionally compete and work together only to create a spec.
It's kind of sad you don't see why this is. The true test would be IF other companies saw a reason to make HD DVD players, but they don't or haven't yet. Of course, there are the upcoming Chinese cheapos that we still don't have any specs or pictures of. Or the Onyko intent to make a player. Or Meridian's intent.
None of which have done anything but express intent. Personally, I'd not trust a player that is made by a company other than toshiba given all the trouble the Big T has had making compatibility issues go away even with its own hardware and spec design.
BDA is the PC market and HD DVD is the Apple state from years ago. Toshiba controls every player made at the moment. That won't last if HD DVD wins the war. In which case, it will wind up in the same place as BD is now. Trying to get players compatible with one another and working the same for discs manufactured.
Even minor differences have already been detected in the way the add-on interacts with certain discs when compared to the standalone Toshiba players. Imagine what will happen when another manufacturer releases a serious competitor to the A2/XA2.
Heh. I wonder where your arguments about compatibility will be then. And "single spec." Heh. You know, the amusing thing is that the if Sony were the entire BDA (as many believe), then BD'd be all set with BD-J and the spec wouldn't be causing some headaches getting cross-compatible. Because it'd just be Sony and they could do whatever the hell they want.
Like Toshiba is doing right now.