Terminator 2: Judgement Day Theatrical & Directors Cut French version*PIX* - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Sorry, but you haven't answered my question. Since when has screwing around in Photoshop with a screen capture become an accepted way of determining the actual resolution of a given film? Saying "because it works" doesn't cut it. Who says it works? Who says that manipulating an image in Photoshop and then comparing it to the original is an accurate method of measuring the detail of the original?Some guy comes along and claims that the newly remastered version of The Fifth Element is made from an up-scaled 720p master and everyone just buys it hook, line, and sinker. Hell, the guy who started this B.S. hasn't even seen the new version - he's judging the whole transfer by three or four screen caps.
File me under "highly skeptical, to the point of utter disbelief."

That is not good enough. If you have a theoretical problem with the approach then tell us what it is. The approach in itself is quite valid. The only point of concern is the quality of the downsampling and upsampling filters. They can make the 1080p->720p->1080p version look worse compared to the original 1080p than necessary. But since he's testing for <= 720p detail in the 1080p original which is established when both versions look about the same the effect of less than optimal filters that remove detail unnecessarily is irrelevant since the difference to the original would become even bigger and we would conclude even more clearly that there is more than 720p detail in the original and not only <= 720p and that our test is negative.
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post #92 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Why would I? It's a flawed "test" that hasn't been proven to be accurate in any way, shape, or form.

The test is valid. The valid conclusion is that for the stills tested there is not more than 720p detail in the 1080p stills. That does neither mean that all frames of the film would test the same or the master used for the disc was technically in the 720p format and not 1080p.
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post #93 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bosng View Post

damn it all to hell i wasn't even considering import discs but these screeshots are goregeos! damn you all!!!

somebody talk me down off this ledge i'm about to take the plunge!

Get it. I have to be honest, if I owned both formats I'd still import this. Well worth the extra couple bucks to get the substantially better picture if you're a fan of the film.
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post #94 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by muzz View Post

I never REALLY looked at that scene, but the FIRST thing I said (after looking at these pics) was WOW, that doesn't even LOOK like Arnold(OR John for that matter)!!

That's what I've started to notice about HD video is that it's easier to see these details like in Matrix Reloaded you can tell some of the stunt guys that do Smith don't even look like Hugo Weaving and you can even tell when they've added in CG head replacements.

Even before the chateau fight you can tell that Persephone has "gone commando".

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post #95 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Well, according to Francesco's 1080p>720p>1080p testing method, even the superior HD-DVD version is resolving not much more than 720p resolution. Blah.

I agree. I posted some DU Test screens of T2 on a dedicated thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872992
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post #96 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 09:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

The test is valid. The valid conclusion is that for the stills tested there is not more than 720p detail in the 1080p stills. That does neither mean that all frames of the film would test the same or the master used for the disc was technically in the 720p format and not 1080p.

The creator of this "test" concluded that TFE was created from an upconverted 720p master (he made the claim at least twice,) which has now been debunked by paidgeek. His conclusions were incorrect and I still haven't seen where anyone has shown what sort of reliable data could possibly be derived from his "test."
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post #97 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

The creator of this "test" concluded that TFE was created from an upconverted 720p master (he made the claim at least twice,) which has now been debunked by paidgeek. His conclusions were incorrect and I still haven't seen where anyone has shown what sort of reliable data could possibly be derived from his "test."

First of all, I'm not the author of the DU Test. The Downscaling Upscaling Test is an old trick known to anybody working in the computer graphics industry.

Second, the digital resolution of the master is not so important, what is important is the process of acquisition of the film. If the digital scanner is labeled 2K or 4k but is not able to resolve more than 720p amount of details, then is useless. And the DU Test proved that there are no additional picture details in the 1080p version of this movies compared to the 720p version.

Whatever the excuses, if the 720 version of a movie is not distinguishable from the 1080p one, something must be wrong. Being it the master, the digital transfer, or bad film stock, the result is the same. If the picture definition of a movie, in other words the amount of details per inch, is lower than the other movies, I'd like to know that when buying something labeled "HD". HD is all about "more definition" after all.
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post #98 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancescoP View Post

the DU Test proved that there are no additional picture details in the 1080p version of this movies compared to the 720p version.

Did you use the DU test to compare every frame of the movie?

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post #99 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 03:20 PM
 
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One thing I would point out is that he's using the "bicubic sharpen" filter which will... wait for it... sharpen the image along with resizing it. Wouldn't this cause the altered image to appear sharper than it really is, even though its resolution has been reduced?

I'm still skeptical of this Photoshop method...
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post #100 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

One thing I would point out is that he's using the "bicubic sharpen" filter which will... wait for it... sharpen the image along with resizing it. Wouldn't this cause the altered image to appear sharper than it really is, even though its resolution has been reduced?
I'm still skeptical of this Photoshop method...

If the filter does sharpen at the same time the test is compromised, unless the sharpening is only compensating for oversoftening during resampling.
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post #101 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

Did you use the DU test to compare every frame of the movie?

Of course he did not. The test is valid for the tested frames and likely the shots they come from and nothing else.
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post #102 of 167 Old 07-10-2007, 06:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

If the filter does sharpen at the same time the test is compromised, unless the sharpening is only compensating for oversoftening during resampling.

Here's what Adobe says:
Quote:


Bicubic Sharper A good method for reducing the size of an image based on Bicubic interpolation with enhanced sharpening. This method maintains the detail in a resampled image. If Bicubic Sharper oversharpens some areas of an image, try using Bicubic.

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post #103 of 167 Old 07-11-2007, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Here's what Adobe says:

When in doubt redo the test without the sharpening option. Regular bicubic upsampling adds some unwanted softening, though.
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post #104 of 167 Old 07-11-2007, 12:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

When in doubt redo the test without the sharpening option. Regular bicubic upsampling adds some unwanted softening, though.

My main issue is that - as far as I know - Photoshop's always going to introduce artifacts of some sort when this sort of manipulation is performed. I think that because of these artifacts, the findings will always be flawed and inaccurate.
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post #105 of 167 Old 07-11-2007, 02:08 AM
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For the record all my comparisons have used regular bicubic when resizing up and down. I also only use nearest neighbor when enlarging to 200% so there's no smoothing going on in that stage.

Here's a test I made of both mine and Francesco's methods. There are slight differences but nothing dramatic. I will do further examples in the future.

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post #106 of 167 Old 07-11-2007, 04:28 AM
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I haven't read anyone compare the HD Theatrical vs the HD Directors Cut but I definitely see more grain in the later.


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post #107 of 167 Old 07-15-2007, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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post #108 of 167 Old 07-15-2007, 08:43 AM
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Xylon, thanks for posting/comparison.

HD DVD definitely looks much Sharper/Detailed! I pre-ordered the UK version.
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post #109 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 06:10 AM
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Bummer!!,

Ordered the dutch hd dvd Terminator 2 director's cut, but be warned!, it's not a dir.cut!! (so stay with the french version!!)

I've called to the store and they claim it's the only version for the dutch market. This version is 131 minutes long and that's incorrect, for the director's cut is 152 min. long.

Now i have to send it back.
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post #110 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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post #111 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 08:22 AM
 
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cool shots xylon, Probably will be importing this. As for the geeks talking all that 1080/720 shiite, *shrug* have at it. can someone notice this 'bicubic' 'downsampling' bull while the movie is in motion? Im sure the Bluray people love their version as did all the people who bought all those dvd editions (me too!). to the end consumer if they've bought an hd dvd player and have a decent enough widescreen tv (with a minimum of component connections) they will love their version as well. yippee for vc-1, but in all honesty the perceived value of a 'somewhat' better looking image over the regular dvd version will be enough to satisfy the average consumer. course it sucks to have import the thing.
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post #112 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akosoft View Post

Ordered the dutch hd dvd Terminator 2 director's cut, but be warned!, it's not a dir.cut!! (so stay with the french version!!)

I've called to the store and they claim it's the only version for the dutch market. This version is 131 minutes long and that's incorrect, for the director's cut is 152 min. long.

Now i have to send it back.

Did you actually watch the disc or did you just read the back of the case? The French disc packaging is mislabeled as 131 minutes, but actually runs 153 minutes. Les Pacte des Loups is similarly mislabeled.

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post #113 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

My day off tomorrow so I will be working on it all day. Hopefully it doesn't get too hot here in SoCal, or I'm just gonna have to head to the beach (5 minute walk) with my HD camera

you savage.



oh man, i need to get me back to socal again, already been almost a year since....
just gotta hold out another few weeks....
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post #114 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastikpyro View Post

yea HD DVD and BR is a tough comparison. They both look identical with the same dirt speck at the bottom of the laser fire.

nah, barrel has a touch more defintion and the eyes are way less blocky on the HD DVD. that said, the difference doesn't jump out at you to a large degree, although even at quick glance a slight improvement is evident. i'm sure other scenes would make it more apparent.
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post #115 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 12:18 PM
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I agree the HDDVD version looks ever so slightly better from these screen grabs than the Blu-ray.

And both the Blu-ray and HDDVD pwn the DVD & WMVHD versions.

But this is an older movie, with little hope for better than what we see here. EE is prevelant on Both the mpeg2 & VC-1 versions. And quite frankly thats still the thorn in the side of both these transfers. Both the HDDVD & BD are soft by todays standards and riddled with noise. Interesting I found this post today, I enjoyed the Blu-ray version last night, the DTS 1.5mbps track left NOTHING to be desired, it seemed lossless and was the savor (along with the action) of an otherwise "mediocre" disc.
I just couldn't reccomend anyone who already had a blu-ray player importing a $36 version and have to deal with french menus to get a 2% increase in sharpeness. When you can get the BD for $19.95 easily and not have to deal with the caveats of importing.

But hey, if your stickin to your guns with HDDVD...T2 is a wild ride in High Definition, and a must have in the collection for any Arnold/action movie fans!

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post #116 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BTBuck1 View Post

I just couldn't reccomend anyone who already had a blu-ray player importing a $36 version and have to deal with french menus to get a 2% increase in sharpeness. When you can get the BD for $19.95 easily and not have to deal with the caveats of importing.

The menus are in English on the French release when you choose English as the language (only has to be chosen once, then the player remembers.) Your "2% increase in sharpeness (sic)" comment seems to ignore the real reason that many of us (including me) upgraded to this disc over the BD version (which I also own): it's not just the increase in PQ, but also the fact that this is currently the only way to get the Special Edition version on either format.

As for importing, most of us buy from xploited cinema - an Ohio-based company. No need to "deal with the caveats of importing."

The only objection I agree with is price - but even there, for ~$36 you're getting two versions of the movie as opposed to one, so that's something to take into consideration. If you're fanatical enough to own both formats, what's a few extra bucks to get a superior verison of a modern-day classic?
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post #117 of 167 Old 07-20-2007, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BTBuck1 View Post

I just couldn't reccomend anyone who already had a blu-ray player importing a $36 version and have to deal with french menus to get a 2% increase in sharpeness. When you can get the BD for $19.95 easily and not have to deal with the caveats of importing.

As previsouly mentioned English menus are available on the French release. The only drawback to the import I see (besides the price) is the forced subtitles on the theatrical version (though I prefer the special edition). The scheduled UK release will probably not have the same problem.
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post #118 of 167 Old 07-21-2007, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by david.p View Post

As previsouly mentioned English menus are available on the French release. The only drawback to the import I see (besides the price) is the forced subtitles on the theatrical version (though I prefer the special edition). The scheduled UK release will probably not have the same problem.

The UK release is supposed to be the Extended Edition ONLY.
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post #119 of 167 Old 07-21-2007, 08:25 AM
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I'm debating whether to pick up the import HD-DVD versus waiting for Lionsgate to release the director's cut on blu-ray in the future. I love the director's cut much more than the theatrical version, so picking up the standard blu-ray release never was an option.
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post #120 of 167 Old 07-21-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post

I'm debating whether to pick up the import HD-DVD versus waiting for Lionsgate to release the director's cut on blu-ray in the future. I love the director's cut much more than the theatrical version, so picking up the standard blu-ray release never was an option.

yeah, me too. so far i think i will wait a little more on the blu-ray. they always seem so eager to get like 30 versions out there, i figure another blu-ray version has got ot be coming soon.
then again, with the lower sales on bluray they might not care much about that now.
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