Has Paramount yet explained why no inclusion of TrueHD in Transformers? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 07:58 AM
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"For some reason, too many people on these forums have some misty eyed idea that HD video disk is about them and their go-for-the-max dream's -- not so! These formats require reasonably broad adoption, and the general public gives not a fig for lossless sound (as clearly demonstrated by SACD and DVD-A.)"

"Face it, the world actually does NOT revolve around YOU and what YOU like, it revolves around what will sell to the most people and how to get it sold to the most people. Let's just step past the conceit and face reality!"

This is SO true.
I could not have said it better myself
Friends of mine, who also is movie freaks, don´t even care if we watch a movie with HD pic or HD sound when they come over.
I´m the only one that seems to get HAPPY as hell over the added details over the DVD version.
THEY don´t give a **** and only want´s to watch a good movie.

This sure IS a niche, and will be for MANY years.

HD-DVD and BD is the new Laserdisc. But that´s fine with me as I was a LD collector
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post #212 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rwduke View Post

Catering to the lowest common denominator is a lame argument. I don't care what speakers other people are using. Technology marches on. You either keep up with it or you get left behind. If corporations really only cared about what the masses wanted we wouldn't even have blu-ray and hd-dvd. Standard dvd is good enough for the masses.

corporations care about revenue streams. there's no altruism involved here (i.e. we want the public to have a better viewing experience). there's no "what the masses want" here. there's no "technology marching on" here (i.e. hdm ISN'T the logical evolution of movie watching for the masses).

there IS "let's get the masses to buy new stuff" here. if you don't understand that, you are missing the boat.

and yes, you have to "build to a common denominator" if you want mass market acceptance. you may not "care", but that's the way it works. like it or not, there's a "good enough" budget decision when it comes to EVERYTHING that is mass marketed.

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #213 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie76 View Post

Friends of mine, who also is movie freaks, don´t even care if we watch a movie with HD pic or HD sound when they come over.
I´m the only one that seems to get HAPPY as hell over the added details over the DVD version.
THEY don´t give a **** and only want´s to watch a good movie.

these sentences should be read OVER AND OVER again by all of those in the "nothing short of lossless will do" camp...

it's the dadgummed MOVIE that's important...

i (and others) have made this point before... it seems like in the quest for "perfection", people have fallen in love with the idea of "perfection" as the end result, rather than "watching a movie and enjoying it" as the end result... they like HD more than they like movies...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #214 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

these sentences should be read OVER AND OVER again by all of those in the "nothing short of lossless will do" camp...

it's the dadgummed MOVIE that's important...

i (and others) have made this point before... it seems like in the quest for "perfection", people have fallen in love with the idea of "perfection" as the end result, rather than "watching a movie and enjoying it" as the end result... they like HD more than they like movies...

So true as well
I just can´t stand people who buy really crappy movies just for the PQ and sound.
I love watching movies in HD, but I also still watch DVD:s and LD:s, and loving every second of the movies
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post #215 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 01:50 PM
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my friend at toshiba explained to me simply that they plan on releasing a special edition HD-DVD version in a few months that will have it to scam more money out of people. Just like they did when dvds were first released then the DTS version woudl come out later
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post #216 of 224 Old 10-22-2007, 11:07 PM
 
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I have posted the statement below, but no one has responded to it (instead they simply attack me). I am still trying to figure out how anyone can argue against this statement.

"Given the same 48/24 source, it is possible for the 48/24 lossless track to be better than the 48/24 lossy track. On the other hand, it is never possible for the 48/24 lossy track to be better than the 48/24 lossless track".

And please, this one time only, try to answer the question instead of attacking me or waving it off.
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post #217 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCD View Post

I have posted the statement below, but no one has responded to it (instead they simply attack me). I am still trying to figure out how anyone can argue against this statement.

"Given the same 48/24 source, it is possible for the 48/24 lossless track to be better than the 48/24 lossy track. On the other hand, it is never possible for the 48/24 lossy track to be better than the 48/24 lossless track".

And please, this one time only, try to answer the question instead of attacking me or waving it off.

no one is arguing against it. give it a rest.

what people are saying is that while it might be technically "better" (actually the term that should be used is "more complete"), there's a level of "lossyness" that isn't able to be perceived. that level may differ dependent upon the listener (and listening environment), but it's there, and it is quite often (read: almost always) considerably higher than the preconceived notion of the listener... many of us have found out (to our great chagrin in some cases) that our ears aren't quite as golden as we thought they were...

until you take some time to do some testing (rather than stubbornly insisting you are right with NO evidence to back you up), you are merely taking up bits in cyberspace... you might as well change your position to "I'm not buying anything until it comes with analog (i.e. vinyl) soundtracks, because that digital crap is lossy"...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #218 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

"I'm not buying anything until it comes with analog (i.e. vinyl) soundtracks, because that digital crap is lossy"...

+1 ccotenj you have it right.

This is the crux of the argument. At the end of the day we all drank the koolaid and adopted CD's (Inherently Lossy compared to Vinyl) There are still some purists out there with Tube Amps and Records but the rest of us realized we aren't such snobby audiophiles that we cant live with digital music.

The same applies to HD movies. Just accept it. Lossless audio is a niche for a select few who are true enthusiasts with McIntosh Amps and B&W speakers, or arrogant enough to think they can tell the difference with our $500 HTIB.

I would like to see how much time and money was spent by some of these people playing the messiah for Lossless audio to create a perfect sound stage in there HT....I'm betting not much.
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post #219 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

no one is arguing against it. give it a rest.

what people are saying is that while it might be technically "better" (actually the term that should be used is "more complete"), there's a level of "lossyness" that isn't able to be perceived. that level may differ dependent upon the listener (and listening environment), but it's there, and it is quite often (read: almost always) considerably higher than the preconceived notion of the listener... many of us have found out (to our great chagrin in some cases) that our ears aren't quite as golden as we thought they were...

Meh, I have occasional tinnitus (from childhood illness) and am more than happy with 5.1 LPCM output over HDMI from XA2, only really noticing the loudness changes between DD+ and TrueHD.

I notice the video much more

Methinks there's more folks like me among the J6P crowd (I'd say I probably am one, except my taste for 6Ps probably runs a bit snobbier) than Golden Ears.

BTW, consider yourselves very lucky, as many adults lose the ability to hear >17khz (See this for an interesting ringtone that takes advantage of this)...
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post #220 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Otis Widlflower View Post

Methinks there's more folks like me among the J6P crowd (I'd say I probably am one, except my taste for 6Ps probably runs a bit snobbier) than Golden Ears.

to be honest, i'm positive there's more folks like you in the avs crowd as well... but they either won't admit it to themselves or they won't make the effort to prove it to themselves...

like i posted, those who do make the effort to do an abx test are often chagrined when they find out that a very high rate of lossyness is transparent to them...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #221 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by shordy999 View Post

my friend at toshiba explained to me simply that they plan on releasing a special edition HD-DVD version in a few months that will have it to scam more money out of people. Just like they did when dvds were first released then the DTS version woudl come out later

I think it is sad if they do this. With the prices HDM is at for now, we should get it fully featured from the get go.

I guess I'll be waiting for the next version. (no rush, my HTPC is not completed yet, so I can't play back HDDVD yet anyways
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post #222 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by The Baron View Post

At the end of the day we all drank the koolaid and adopted CD's (Inherently Lossy compared to Vinyl) There are still some purists out there with Tube Amps and Records but the rest of us realized we aren't such snobby audiophiles that we cant live with digital music.

Hey speak for yourself. You have to pry the Vinyl from my cold dead hands. Plus the tubes keep me warm at night.

Sorry, had to inject a little humour into the thead.

Toshiba HD XA2 & PS3 Owner
Format Neutrality is the place to be.
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post #223 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 02:05 PM
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Well then if lossless is the case.... HD-DVD and Bluray should actually do what DTS does in the Cinema

encode the sound on a DVD-A (HDDVD) or SACD (Blu) and time encode them to sync up to the movie. DONE! 192k/24b or native WAV file support.

Do NOT let the magic smoke out because it is impossible to put the magic smoke back in!!!!
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post #224 of 224 Old 10-23-2007, 06:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Figgie View Post

encode the sound on a DVD-A (HDDVD) or SACD (Blu) and time encode them to sync up to the movie. DONE! 192k/24b or native WAV file support.

Don't tease me!

On the other hand, what good are all those formats. 1.5Mbps DD+ is already perfection. TrueHD is just something invented to keep the engineers employed. PCM is just something invented to keep the lawyers happy. DTS MA/HD is just something invented because those words are not already in the dictionary. And as for DVD-A and SACD, they are just something invented to fill the larger capacity discs with zeros. They are all totally unnecessary.
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