Transformers LFE lacking...what is your disc number? - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #841 of 853 Old 01-01-2008, 06:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lgans316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Barking, Essex, London
Posts: 6,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 47
These are the problems I identified with Transformers AUDIO

1) Recording levels too low. Had to keep the TX-SR705 at -2 to 0 Db.
2) Center channel audio sounds muffled.
3) The disc I tested didn't suffer from lack of BASS.
4) The Gun shots don't have the impact.

The best part about Transformers is the spectacular usage of REAR channels. However titles like Face/Off, Air Force One, The Rock, Underworld, Matrix etc sounds far better than the Transformers.

Blu-ray : 340
lgans316 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #842 of 853 Old 01-01-2008, 07:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Digital2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 2,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
no critic but the 705 and the 605 have NO juice: 7x35w real (see test in home cinemachoice). sell it and take a 805

now i agree Transformers consumers mix seems to have a compressed dynamic, to simplify. it's restrained. people were floored and so were we (and trust us we've heard tons of mixes) at cinemaexpo presentation and it was not just the system used.
it's UNLEASHED, violent, and distorsion free (it's easy to make loud but full of distorsion).

wished a japanese edition would use a different mix as in the good old laserdisc days sometimes.

time to email Michael Bay
Digital2004 is offline  
post #843 of 853 Old 01-01-2008, 08:27 PM
Newbie
 
viewer7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just to clarify my previous post:

I get very poor bass on the Transformers disc via HD-A1 firmware 2.0 unless I set the SPDIF digital output mode to Bitstream rather than PCM WHILE I AM USING THE 5.1 ANALOG OUTS. I am not using the digital outputs, HDMI or SPDIF. I am only using the analog outs connected to an analog preamp (I have no digital processor or receiver). Changing the SPDIF mode affects the analog outs (I wouldn't expect this). The effect is repeatable, I have switched the modes a few times, and the effect is quite dramatic for the Transformers disc. Switching the SPDIF mode to PCM has no notable effect on the analog outs for any disc except for the Transformers disc, in which case the PCM mode (for coax/optical SPDIF output) produces poor LFE from the 5.1 ANALOG OUTPUT, while the Bitstream mode (for coax/optical SPDIF output) produces good LFE from the 5.1 ANALOG OUTPUT. I hope this is clear (even if it does not seem logical). Dynamic range control is off, Dialog enhancement is off.

The LFE behavior of my 5.1 analog outputs is typically quite normal and well behaved, for all my (three) players and for any disc except Transformers. The players are obviously using the same "standards", and I have no need to adjust the multichannel analog preamp Subwoofer channel when I switch between players or change the discs.

Regarding the SPDIF setting, does anyone know how the SPDIF mode affects audio processing for the HD-A1 player? It somehow affects the analog outputs (sometimes).
viewer7 is offline  
 
post #844 of 853 Old 03-02-2008, 08:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Digital2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 2,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
the region 3 dvd from dddhouse.com TROUNCES in LF the hd dvd and region 2 dvd
these discs have been encoded with A TOO LOW LFE.
having heard the PCM digital master last year i tell you guys Bay better check twice before releasing the blu ray with the CORRECT sound master and level encoding.
Digital2004 is offline  
post #845 of 853 Old 03-02-2008, 09:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Digital2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 2,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyliec2 View Post

It's hard to judge the relative impressions of this movie by different people - I didn't see this movie in a theater so I don't have that frame of reference...

I can compare it with my benchmarks for bass....so my relative rating (putting WOTW at the top) based on recent viewings of all:

WOTW (DTS) = 10
Haunting (DTS) = 9
Incredibles = 8-9

Transformers = 4

I'd be interested in others' relative impression of Transformers compared to these other movies....

here's my palmares:
WOTWdts-HAUNTING dts ES-LOST WORLD dts(!!!!)-MINORITY REPORTdts-SW1 laserdiscs-SW2 dvd-SAVING PRIVATE RYAN dts dvd and AC3 ld THE ISLAND hdvd-dvd(to name a few ): around 10-8
TRANSFORMERS region 3: 6-8
TRANSFORMERS hd dvd : 5
TRANSFORMERS region 1-2:4 (uncorrecte lfe levels)
it's not about loud it's about correct encoding. and i'm in the business of A/V.
Digital2004 is offline  
post #846 of 853 Old 08-30-2008, 11:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
xradman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I had great sounding bass from Transformer HD DVD except for the Shockwave sequence towards the end of Chapter 1. When helipcopter decepticon is attacking the base, he sends out blue shockwaves. I knew my setup was working correctly since I was getting great rumble from the helicopter blades and all the explosions, but no audible or palpable rumble from the Shockwave as some posters have noted.

According to one poster, the reason for this is that there is no perceptible bass encoded into the LFE channel, only in the main channels for this effect sequence. I don't know whether this was intentional or encoding error.

I had my Denon AVR 3808 set "correctly" with Main speakers set to "Small" and Bass management as "LFE" and crossover at "80 Hz". With this setting, any bass frequency from the main channels below 80 Hz and alll LFE signals are sent to the subwoofer. However, this did not seem to be the case. I wasn't getting the rumble from the Shockwaves. So I set the Bass management to "LFE + Main". In this setting, any bass frequency below 80Hz from main speakers (regardless of whether they are set to Small or Large) are sent to the subwoofer. With this setting, I was finally getting both audible and palpable rumble from the Shockwaves.

So if you are not getting the Shockwave bass, check your bass management. In my case, I am convinced that it's a bug in the Denon receiver, since I should have gotten the bass from the main redirected to the subwoofer (since the main speakers were set to Small). The key is whether you hear the rumble from the blue shockwaves. Finally, I do think the audio mixer dropped the ball with the encoding by not including the low frequency effects sound from the shockwaves to the LFE channel.

Addicted to shiny round discs with HD content

My Home Theater
My Movie Collection
BDP-83 EAP (second group)
xradman is offline  
post #847 of 853 Old 08-30-2008, 04:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
xradman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 2,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Upon researching this, I think there are several problems involving the disc encoding, player decoding, and receiver handling.

Disc problems

Roger Dressler has confirmed that with Transformers HD DVD, lot of bass was encoded into the main channels rather than LFE channel. I think with most other movies, bass is encoded into the LFE channel in addition to the main channels. This was particularly so with the shockwave audio effect where there is almost no bass in the LFE channel. That's why many folks who were getting plenty of bass and rumbles during rest of the movie were surprised with lack of expected woomph during this scene.

Player problems

There appears to be problems with some Toshiba HD DVD players which would not pass low frequency signals from the main channels out through HDMI connection if the speakers were set to small. This seems like a player bug since speaker settings were only supposed to effect the analog output. I don't know if this was ever fixed with subsequent FW. The workaround is to set the speakers as large.

There was also a problem with PCM output from HD DVD player outputting LFE signals 10dB too low. This is supposedly correct and should have been automatically corrected with the receiver, but some receivers were not applying the correct LFE boost with PCM inputs. If this was the problem, bitstreaming directly to the receiver corrected this deficiency.

Receiver problems

This is specific to my Denon AVR-3808CI, but may apply to other receivers. The bass management in my Denon should have redirected bass output from my main speakers to the subwoofer if the main speakers were set as "Small". But this was not happening. I had to set the bass management to direct all bass signals (LFE and Main) to the subwoofer to get this to redirect correctly. In the Denon, this was set by setting subwoofer to "LFE + Main". The reason why I had not noticed this problem with other movies was that with all the other movies, bass was encoded into the LFE channel or LFE channel + Main.

I think the one or combination of above problems caused such divergence of opinion regarding lack or presence of bass with the Transformers HD DVD. You ended up with people having

1. Great bass everywhere including the shockwave effect
2. Great bass everywhere except for the shockwave effect
3. Anemic bass everywhere

I wonder if the Blu-ray version of Transformers is encoded the same way with shockwave effect only in the main channel.

Addicted to shiny round discs with HD content

My Home Theater
My Movie Collection
BDP-83 EAP (second group)
xradman is offline  
post #848 of 853 Old 08-30-2008, 06:59 PM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Shockwave is sent to all channels in slightly different flavours when monitoring independently, something I doubt none of you have even bothered trying.

I wouldn't hear of this issue around my home and there's nothing wrong with film not even with region 2 DVD, so it must be your set-ups!

Here is a break down of the shockwave while monitoring each output. The LCRS is sent to the second sub bass while LFE.1 gets sent over to larger sub bass for LFE.1 track only this prevents the signal from being over taxied with LCRS and other issues.

JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #849 of 853 Old 08-31-2008, 12:34 PM
Senior Member
 
xlr231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Here is a comparison of the bass from the shockwave and the bass from the chopper blades at the beginning of chapter 2.

LFE channel - Shockwave


LFE channel - Chopper blades-beginning of CH.2


Left channel - Shockwave


Left channel - Chopper blades-beginning of CH.2


Center channel - Shockwave


After looking at the spectrograph and RTA as well as listening to each channel separately I think the problem is the shockwave effect just isn't what people are expecting it to be. When you see it you expect a huge low end wave that shakes the whole room but it just isn't there.

If you look at the freq. response graphs you will see the on the LR channels there is a frequency sweep from about 160 down to 80hz. If you don't have large front speakers with good low end response you will miss a lot of that effect. Also if you don't have your receiver set to "small speakers" so it redirects the low end from the 6 main channels to the sub. If you do and have your sub's crossover set too high you also won't hear it.

You can also see there is a lower low end on the chopper blades scene than there is on the shockwave blast.
xlr231 is offline  
post #850 of 853 Old 08-31-2008, 02:17 PM
 
JBLsound4645's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
xlr231

Good analysis there what software did you use as I’m not familiar with that one, free download version is it?

All effects have different levels and when you look at the POV from where the shockwave takes place from inside the air-control tower and the distance as well, then I say the shockwave is of adequate level, because there are plenty of other entertaining LFE.1 only effects like when one of the troops gets stiffed from the transformer that’s crawling under the desert and sticks the spike in him! Whoa wow that is different then muting the LFE.1 track.
JBLsound4645 is offline  
post #851 of 853 Old 08-31-2008, 03:42 PM
Senior Member
 
xlr231's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 15
The software I used was Smaart, it isn't free but it has a 30 day fully functional demo.
http://www.eaw.com/products/software...art/index.html
xlr231 is offline  
post #852 of 853 Old 09-04-2008, 02:39 PM
Newbie
 
dvdwizards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SF
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

These are the problems I identified with Transformers AUDIO

1) Recording levels too low. Had to keep the TX-SR705 at -2 to 0 Db.
2) Center channel audio sounds muffled.
3) The disc I tested didn't suffer from lack of BASS.
4) The Gun shots don't have the impact.

The best part about Transformers is the spectacular usage of REAR channels. However titles like Face/Off, Air Force One, The Rock, Underworld, Matrix etc sounds far better than the Transformers.

My thoughts, exactly.

Jim
Film and Video game Music Composer
www.angryguildleader.com
www.dvdwizards.net
dvdwizards is offline  
post #853 of 853 Old 08-28-2015, 10:13 AM
Newbie
 
Carat_EST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Toshiba HD-EP35 (HD-EP35KE) - low frequencies output problem.

I have Toshiba HD-EP35KE player (region-free + FW 4.0) - when testing this unit with HD DVD test discs Silicon Optix HD HQV Benchmark HD DVD and Joe Kane Productions (JKP) / VideoEssentials DVE HD Test & Demonstration Materials HD DVD + R1 NTSC DVD Combo I found that for some reason my unit is not sending out to the amplifier / receiver (Onkio TX-NR929) any frequencies below 60-70Hz. In Toshiba configuration I am using HDMI out with Auto (full auto multichannel bitstreams for Dolby, DTS and (L)PCM). For other players/sources connected to Onkyo (Funai VHS, Pioneer BD, Pioneer LD, Sony MD etc.) the low frequencies are working as expected. Any ideas how to solve?
Carat_EST is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply HD DVD Software

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off