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post #91 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 05:26 AM
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Well, I got to see this disc first hand after discussing the DNR. I managed to see the HD version, not the Blu Ray. I was at the North American premiere with Del Torro back in the summer of 06, and I watched it on a Christie HD projector with him there. I have all my programs, stills, press kits etc... and I've seen this on multiple DVDs as well as in the theatre twice, outside of seeing it at 2 festivals in which the projects were calibrated for accuracy.

I don't think this transfer is "awful", but it isn't accurate. If you like this transfer, all the power to you, but do not lie to the public and say it's accurate. I am a big arthouse fan. I attend multiple festivals, seeing 26 movies at the TIFF alone each year. Anyhow, one of the things that really affects a movie for me is it's presentation. I can see the grain has been reduced in this transfer. For some people, this will make them happy. I think if you're not as concerned with details like this, then this disc is great. It's a much better experience then SD DVD as the SD transfer wasn't great either. That being said, I have to agree with some of the previous posts. It's rather sad that people who claim to review discs and/or film have gone on record as saying it looks like the theatre. I'm not sure if they are lying to themselves, us, or if they even understand what they are talking about. Maybe this is what we get when anyone can run blog and/or website Again, I appreciate and respect if you like this picture, but please don't mislead people into thinking it's accurate, that's just wrong. Just say "it looks great for my tastes".

So I guess what I'm saying is this does seem like the best option for home viewing if you're a North American, but it's still a disappointment in the accuracy department. I'm not going to buy this disc myself in hopes someone out there does it right, and if not, I'm sure I'll be able to find this thing used or as part of some 2for1 sale at some point so I don't pay a premium for it. It is after all one of the few international films on HD.
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post #92 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 08:48 AM
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I can see from the pictures what everyone is talking about, but unfortunately, I didn't have a frame of reference to go back on. If someone has no idea what it is supposed to look like, how are they to judge it? I can only judge what I saw on the HD DVD and BD from North America. They both look the same on each of the respective formats. Do they look like the Master or what it looked like in the theater? I have no idea (at the time of my review). Are they unwatchable? No. Contrast is pumped up a little bit, and faces are a bit waxy and orange. I noted these in my review, but with that being said, it did not take away one bit from the enjoyment of an excellent film.

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post #93 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 10:46 AM
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Another thing about seeing it or any other film in a theater is that most of the theaters that you attend are showing a film that is too dark. That is one of the things that turn me off from attending movie theaters. I know good and well that the movie shouldn't be that darn dark. Therefore I also would not have any reference as to how a particular movie should look. Also, unless you have a photographic memory, how could you remember exactly how a film looked a few months ago.
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post #94 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 11:17 AM
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Well,

When I saw Bourne 3 in the theater this summer, I actually wrote down some notes on the audio and video quality in the theater, knowing that I would be reviewing it later in the year. BUT, I rarely go to the movies anymore, so this was a rare time for me to do this comparison. IMO, it looked and sounded better at home

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post #95 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I can see from the pictures what everyone is talking about, but unfortunately, I didn't have a frame of reference to go back on. If someone has no idea what it is supposed to look like, how are they to judge it? I can only judge what I saw on the HD DVD and BD from North America. They both look the same on each of the respective formats. Do they look like the Master or what it looked like in the theater? I have no idea (at the time of my review). Are they unwatchable? No. Contrast is pumped up a little bit, and faces are a bit waxy and orange. I noted these in my review, but with that being said, it did not take away one bit from the enjoyment of an excellent film.

David,

fair enough. But the fact remains that for spotting bad practises like excessive DNR and/or EE no frame of reference "should" be necessary - especially if you choose to publish reviews based on your assessments. You are making it - IMHO - way too easy for yourself if you point out that "you are not aware how it is supposed to look" and therefor have no "point of reference".

The New Line release of Pans Labyrinth does have this overly processed/filtered DNR look - no matter if you judge it by frame captures, look at it on any setup that's the least bit revealing, A-B it with other encodings based on the same source or even A-B it with a theatrical print, the DI, the D5 master tape used for encoding,...............

The outcome is always the same - even without a point of reference of any kind - this release is not just a mere example of "minor DNR" but a symbol of worst digital filtering prior encoding. DNR is way more obvious watching it in motion on a revealing setup than by looking at those screen captures - but even the still frames leave no further room for excuses and vindications.

Everybody with the least understanding of how movies shot on film "are supposed to look like" and what kind of digital filtering isn't part of this distinct look (other than digital grading) but just a mere artifact should recognize DNR as obvious as it is found here.

I hope you agree. btw in this case I can fully understand that this exceptional movie kept you from critically evaluating the PQ
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post #96 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 11:46 AM
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Well after reading this thread I guess I need to take my disc out of my player(I've only watched 1/3 of the movie so far)and burn it.

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post #97 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

David,

fair enough. But the fact remains that for spotting bad practises like excessive DNR and/or EE no frame of reference "should" be necessary - especially if you choose to publish reviews based on your assessments. You are making it - IMHO - way too easy for yourself if you point out that "you are not aware how it is supposed to look" and therefor have no "point of reference".

The New Line release of Pans Labyrinth does have this overly processed/filtered DNR look - no matter if you judge it by frame captures, look at it on any setup that's the least bit revealing, A-B it with other encodings based on the same source or even A-B it with a theatrical print, the DI, the D5 master tape used for encoding,...............

The outcome is always the same - even without a point of reference of any kind - this release is not just a mere example of "minor DNR" but a symbol of worst digital filtering prior encoding. DNR is way more obvious watching it in motion on a revealing setup than by looking at those screen captures - but even the still frames leave no further room for excuses and vindications.

Everybody with the least understanding of how movies shot on film "are supposed to look like" and what kind of digital filtering isn't part of this distinct look (other than digital grading) but just a mere artifact should recognize DNR as obvious as it is found here.

I hope you agree. btw in this case I can fully understand that this exceptional movie kept you from critically evaluating the PQ

That is the hard part...how many movies are "tweaked" in post production and are part of artistic intent...who do you blame, the encoder or the film maker? As I said before, this is far from the worst culprit of DNR that I have seen, and in fact, while in motion most would have a hard time finding issue with the way that it looks.

I did comment on shortcomings that I saw in the transfer though, and they are some of the same complaints that you have as well. I'm just not going to pan the video because of some minor DNR that was applied.

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post #98 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

That is the hard part...how many movies are "tweaked" in post production and are part of artistic intent...who do you blame, the encoder or the film maker? As I said before, this is far from the worst culprit of DNR that I have seen, and in fact, while in motion most would have a hard time finding issue with the way that it looks.

I did comment on shortcomings that I saw in the transfer though, and they are some of the same complaints that you have as well. I'm just not going to pan the video because of some minor DNR that was applied.

David,

this is where we disagree. New Line practically removed any hint of film grain from the picture - there is practically no grain left at all - so if this is "some minor DNR" I have to ask what "major DNR" should possibly look like??? If (practically) no grain is left you have per definitionem applied as much DNR as feasible.

(exception from the above: to make things worse you can always use a supbar DNR filter that causes severe artifacting)
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post #99 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 03:21 PM
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As I told you before, on my Firehawk there has to be HEAVY grain for me to see it (Transformers, Miami Vice, etc). Minor grain is masked because the screen isn't as revealing. That is a trade-off I have to make with the Firehawk. I've been reading some other reviews online, and I really haven't seen one where people are complaining about this, so I really feel you are in the minority here, whether you are right or not.

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post #100 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 03:32 PM
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Are they unwatchable? No. Contrast is pumped up a little bit, and faces are a bit waxy and orange. I noted these in my review, but with that being said, it did not take away one bit from the enjoyment of an excellent film.

Thanks for the perspective. As I'm limited to reading english, I don't have much choice if I want this on HDM. I thoroughly enjoyed this on DVD, despite the visual shortcomings.

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post #101 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey View Post

Thanks for the perspective. As I'm limited to reading english, I don't have much choice if I want this on HDM. I thoroughly enjoyed this on DVD, despite the visual shortcomings.

Well, i am fluent in spanish and have a B.A. in Spanish literature and history. so i don't care if i get english subtitles, but for the pure ease of purchase and the fact that i have a gift card, i will get the northamerican release. besides i only have a 40" samsung so it hopefully won't be too noticeable. yeah, original film grain would be better, but Kenneth Brown at highdef digest seems to like the PQ. "Minor DNR" aside, it sounds good. I was hoping for a five star transfer, sometimes you lose.

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post #102 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 05:53 PM
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Well, i am fluent in spanish and have a B.A. in Spanish literature and history. so i don't care if i get english subtitles,

They actually annoy my wife, who's a native speaker. I suppose I could turn them off and have her translate on-the-fly, but that might get old real quick.

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post #103 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 07:02 PM
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For those friendly to both red and blue, if you really do love this movie, and are a film purist seek the UK Bluray. You won't be disappointed in the PQ. Depending on your gear and how discerning a film-goer you actually are, the extra bucks will be well spent.

On the down side audio is only 640kbps DD 5.1, the extras are in PAL and will not play on a North American player, and there is no PIP enhanced commentary.

On a side note, the folks at HiDef Digest admit to the notable video processing on both BD and HD New Line releases of Pan's Labyrinth, although they downplay its severity IMHO. They say it's noticeable on a 100" screen, I say more like a 50" screen.
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post #104 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't imagine listening to the sound @640 kbps after hearing the DTS "core" track. It will only be better once I have a compatible receiver to decode the full Master Audio. Pans Labyrinth & Transformers are hands down the best audio disc tracks of HD media for 07.
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post #105 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 09:31 PM
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I just watched this for the first time today and really don't know what to think. I was expecting a fantasy movie, and was told it was a war movie so I prepared myself for that. But wow this movie was way more violent and graphic than what I was expecting. It turned into almost a torture movie. I think it was more graphic than Hostel. Because Hostel didn't really show you anything.
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post #106 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post

On a side note, the folks at HiDef Digest admit to the notable video processing on both BD and HD New Line releases of Pan's Labyrinth, although they downplay its severity IMHO. They say it's noticeable on a 100" screen, I say more like a 50" screen.

You can notice it on any size screen if there's a decent viewing distance. 1080p of course.
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post #107 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 10:39 PM
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You can notice it on any size screen if there's a decent viewing distance. 1080p of course.

Kenneth at HDD says:

"On that note, a word of warning for purists -- grain has been artificially reduced using a MINOR application of Digital Noise Reduction (DNR). Because this decision by New Line has sparked some controversy, I spent quite a bit of time comparing this HD DVD release to the previously released high-def import edition, hunting for blurry patches of skin and smeared textures. My takeaway: fans with screens larger than 100" may see a loss of clarity when directly comparing still shots from this domestic version to the same shots on the import, but the vast majority of viewers will NEVER notice or care (especially considering how INSIGNIFICANT the visible difference actually is when the film is in motion)."

I capitalized the key words for the haters in this thread. As most reviewers have pointed out, the DNR applied is minimal at best (as I said before, look to Tremors and the 40YOV for better or examples of films that were butchered on HD DVD). Again, I prefer that the HDM encode be as faithful to the theatrical master as possible, but in this case its nit-picking because it is minimal.
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post #108 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion View Post

David,

this is where we disagree. New Line practically removed any hint of film grain from the picture - there is practically no grain left at all - so if this is "some minor DNR" I have to ask what "major DNR" should possibly look like??? If (practically) no grain is left you have per definitionem applied as much DNR as feasible.

(exception from the above: to make things worse you can always use a supbar DNR filter that causes severe artifacting)

The 40YOV on HD DVD. I love the film and the clarity is much better on the HD DVD over the S DVD, but the faces and textures look so unnatural and waxy, almost one dimensional...
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post #109 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 10:54 PM
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I capitalized the key words for the haters in this thread. As most reviewers have pointed out, the DNR applied is minimal at best (as I said before, look to Tremors and the 40YOV for better or examples of films that were butchered on HD DVD). Again, I prefer that the HDM encode be as faithful to the theatrical master as possible, but in this case its nit-picking because it is minimal.

Message to New Line and other studios: Some DNR is okay. Feel free to give us more.
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post #110 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 11:00 PM
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Message to New Line and other studios: Some DNR is okay. Feel free to give us more.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact remains that most people won't notice the difference as evidenced by numerous seasoned reviewers saying the exact same thing...

And the people with large enough HDTVS/projectors to notice are such a small percentage of an already small percentage of HDM purchasers that your pleas will go unheard by New Line/Warner either way.

In theory Im with you and I've held off on purchasing this title for the meantime, but I have seen it in person, read numerous reviews and looked at the comparison stills in this thread and I still think you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.
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post #111 of 275 Old 12-26-2007, 11:35 PM
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I just watched this for the first time today and really don't know what to think. I was expecting a fantasy movie, and was told it was a war movie so I prepared myself for that. But wow this movie was way more violent and graphic than what I was expecting. It turned into almost a torture movie. I think it was more graphic than Hostel. Because Hostel didn't really show you anything.

Yep. It actually disturbed me. It's not what I call entertainment, and I shan't be watching it again.

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post #112 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 02:38 AM
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Yep. It actually disturbed me. It's not what I call entertainment, and I shan't be watching it again.

Art is not 'only' entertainment, at times not at all. If this film does not disturb you, pinch yourself. You might not be alive after all.
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post #113 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

As I told you before, on my Firehawk there has to be HEAVY grain for me to see it (Transformers, Miami Vice, etc). Minor grain is masked because the screen isn't as revealing..

What is the point of reviewing disks with equipment that does not show what is on the disc? You might be closer to what a portion of your audience sees, but is this a good thing? Another portion sees even less and the rest more.
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post #114 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

As I told you before, on my Firehawk there has to be HEAVY grain for me to see it (Transformers, Miami Vice, etc). Minor grain is masked because the screen isn't as revealing. That is a trade-off I have to make with the Firehawk. I've been reading some other reviews online, and I really haven't seen one where people are complaining about this, so I really feel you are in the minority here, whether you are right or not.

Possibly, but by that logic why bother watching HD at all? Most people watching video are watching DVD and not complaining about the lack of HD. So DVD must be good enough after all. Slippery slope...
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post #115 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 03:39 AM
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Not that this has anything to do with the HD disc transfer, but I noticed the Pans Labyrinth trailers on XBOX Live look horrible (generally HD movie downloads look pretty close to optical media to me on Live).
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post #116 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 06:33 AM
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...am I the first person to answer the poll questions on the web extras? Everything I chose got 100% of the vote

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post #117 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 07:57 AM
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Not that this has anything to do with the HD disc transfer, but I noticed the Pans Labyrinth trailers on XBOX Live look horrible (generally HD movie downloads look pretty close to optical media to me on Live).

Even at 720P there is much more detail in the pictures from Xbox Live than from a DVD. I'll watch a movie any day on XBL over a DVD.

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post #118 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

What is the point of reviewing disks with equipment that does not show what is on the disc? You might be closer to what a portion of your audience sees, but is this a good thing? Another portion sees even less and the rest more.

It does show what is on the disc, but it isn't as revealing as some other set ups. 99% of the time, it is just fine.

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post #119 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 02:14 PM
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May we see a screen comparison of a scene shown at the beginning, particularly of Ophelia lying on the floor? I thought her face had a plastic look when I watched the US HD DVD release a couple of days ago. I didn't even have to pause the movie to notice this.
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post #120 of 275 Old 12-27-2007, 04:24 PM
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nevermind. missed a page of the thread.

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