What if the remaining HD-DVD studios did this? - Page 13 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 464 Old 02-10-2008, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbie View Post

Except that the TL discs are only single-layer DVD. Unsuitable for even bare-bones releases, let alone special editions.

Studios are not going to hurt their big market in order to try this experiment that, at best, can only artificially inflate HD sales without doing a thing to increase adoption.

A 15 gb single layer DVD kills a 8 gb. dual layer DVD any day - Doesn't it?

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post #362 of 464 Old 02-10-2008, 12:07 PM
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Except it's not a 15 gb DVD. The DVD layer is normal single-layer DVD. DVD players can't read a 15 gb disc.

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post #363 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 03:26 PM
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So after the Netflix news, I think it is time for the HD DVD PG to release combos only disc and completely eliminate all Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks SD releases. Mark those disc the same price of SD DVD releases. This is the only way Netflix will rent HD DVD now. Its time to do this.

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post #364 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 03:32 PM
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Hopefully they would start releasing ALL movies in a combo disc.

Peter
Enjoy HD no matter what......
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post #365 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rutlian View Post

Hopefully they would start releasing ALL movies in a combo disc.



Quickly.....
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post #366 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 03:51 PM
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Very quickly. The HD DVD PG didn't respond boldly swiftly enough, and this is the only option for the format to stay alive. We need an announcement by the end of the week.

That leaves the only point of discussion how to do it. There are three options that have been discussed here.

1. TL Twin disc. This would require, in my view, two layers of SD and a single-layer, 720p transfer. But then there's only one disc. Would leave room for higher-quality transfers to be sold separately.
2. Combo disc. SD on side A, HD on B. This allows for fewer compromises on PQ, but easier damage and no disc art (not a deal-breaker for sales as far as I'm concerned).
3. Two discs, one HD and one SD, in one case.

I think (1) is the most cost-effective.
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post #367 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 03:59 PM
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Any announcement that could be made by the end of the week wouldn't be one you'd like.

To start releasing everything on combo would take months of planning and prep. The best they could do is announce something like "starting in September we will release everything on combo disc."

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post #368 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 04:05 PM
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Such an announcement would go a long way—Warner didn't wait for its contract to expire to announce the BD exclusivity. Also, it's possible that something has already been in the works.

Another variation of the TL Twin option would be to include a SD disc with the bonus features.
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post #369 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 04:07 PM
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Anything is possible, but I'm thinking there will be another, less pleasing announcement (or two) within a month. I don't expect anyone, including Toshiba, to lift a finger to save HD at this point.

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post #370 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie View Post

Any announcement that could be made by the end of the week wouldn't be one you'd like.

To start releasing everything on combo would take months of planning and prep. The best they could do is announce something like "starting in September we will release everything on combo disc."

i don't think it would take that long since everything is in place already. The only think that might take time is trying to print out millions of combos, but they don't need to suddenly announce that all Paramount and Universal titles are going combos only in 1 day, just announcing 1 or 2 titles, will overcome all the string of bad news lately.

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post #371 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie View Post

Anything is possible, but I'm thinking there will be another, less pleasing announcement (or two) within a month. I don't expect anyone, including Toshiba, to lift a finger to save HD at this point.

My point was that if Toshiba wants to save HD DVD, this is what it has to do. No other gestures (even flipping a studio) will have an effect at this point.
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post #372 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nsps View Post

Very quickly. The HD DVD PG didn't respond boldly swiftly enough, and this is the only option for the format to stay alive. We need an announcement by the end of the week.

That leaves the only point of discussion how to do it. There are three options that have been discussed here.

1. TL Twin disc. This would require, in my view, two layers of SD and a single-layer, 720p transfer. But then there's only one disc. Would leave room for higher-quality transfers to be sold separately.
2. Combo disc. SD on side A, HD on B. This allows for fewer compromises on PQ, but easier damage and no disc art (not a deal-breaker for sales as far as I'm concerned).
3. Two discs, one HD and one SD, in one case.

I think (1) is the most cost-effective.

1) The problem is that no studio will start encoding 720p if all the rest are doing 1080p, and Toshiba can't force them to do it.
2) The average consumer don't like the combo, many like the idea but don't like the delivery (fragile, without art work, look like bootleg, can't easily identify one movie from other by looking at the disc for small letters)
3) The studios will not do this, they thing instead of selling 2 movies they will only sell one and people will split the disc with a friend or sell the unused disc.

There are movies that can fit in DL Twin. I've seen movies with Fullscreen and Widescreen versions in same disc (each version less than 4GB). There are releases in DL Twin (Freedom from Bandai Visual). So if the exclusive studios really want to push HD DVD, they need to release at least a few titles in DL Twin only (no SD only version). I think they won't, too bad, the war was interesting.
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post #373 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bato View Post

1) So if the exclusive studios really want to push HD DVD, they need to release at least a few titles in DL Twin only (no SD only version). I think they won't, too bad, the war was interesting.

That is exactly right. Truth is that is only real play that hd dvd ever had as a format and it should have been done when they had the full support of 3 studios and Microsoft. Apparently they couldn't sell the idea, according to insiders because

1) Combos too expensive to manufacture for a realistic replacement of a SD DVD release with it's much larger replication runs. numbers.

2) Twins really only work on 720p and though that can look very good it runs counter to marketing. Insider Robert also indicated that Studios favor larger file sizes rather than smaller so it's harder to move around the internet.

As I've posted before it's been clear even before CES that major industry players were consolidating behind blu-ray and without question after Warner.

Upgrading DVD is the only real play for the format which would eliminate the power of retailers to kill it. It appears the studios behind the format aren't looking to do that.

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post #374 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 05:27 PM
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Unfortunately, we don't have the insider thread no more. so a lot of what we talked about might be happening, but we simply don't know.

Anyway, I still think that Combos are the best way to go. No compromise. The average consumer won't care about disc art or the fact that you need to flip it to read a completely different format. After a few million players are established, they can eliminate combos and go to HD DVD only disc.

Toshiba needs to subsidize the cost in the short run until the idea takes off and I seriously think it will take off.

Studios don't have much risk, since Toshiba is subsidizing the HD cost.

If it doesn't happen, I think we can call this war over.

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post #375 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nsps View Post

My point was that if Toshiba wants to save HD DVD, this is what it has to do. No other gestures (even flipping a studio) will have an effect at this point.

Certainly flipping a studio wouldn't work now, but I don't see it as being in Toshiba's power to move to combo or TL. Paramount or Universal would have to, and I don't see them as caring nearly enough. I've seen what it's like when a company is really pushing a product they believe in, and this isn't it, from any of them.

I remember Microsoft with Windows and Internet Explorer, Sony with Beta, Pioneer with Laser, etc. It obviously doesn't alway work. I personally don't believe there is anything they could do to save HD at this point, but I've never seen anything to indicate real support.

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post #376 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 06:34 PM
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It doesn't seem that Toshiba has any clue how to save HD DVD. As a firm supporter, I find all speculation pretty useless at this time.
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post #377 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jpco View Post

It doesn't seem that Toshiba has any clue how to save HD DVD. As a firm supporter, I find all speculation pretty useless at this time.

I agree. I have backed HD DVD from the beginning but it's time to recognize that the the HDM war is over and Blu-ray has won. It remains to be seen if Blu-ray can become the standard and supplant SD but the HD DVD group has to realize that they are beaten. It's too bad because it's a great product with great implementation at a reasonable price. It's a shame that their marketing just plain sucks. They seem to have relied on beating the BD group to the punch by delivering a product first, it doesn't appear to me that they had much of a plan beyond that except for keeping prices low.

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post #378 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 07:37 PM
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I am curious, don't you think that if HD DVD would be over then Toshiba would announce something, or is this just speculations? Also how long did it take for Beta to fold?

The best thing to do now is to keep those BOGO deals going on and keep selling players...
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post #379 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 08:00 PM
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The Beta/VHS war was over long before Sony conceded defeat. Sony started selling VHS decks in 1988, but didn't stop manufacturing Beta decks until 2002 in Japan. It all depends on how you define "over."

Certainly no one in North America or Europe considered Beta alive in 2001.

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post #380 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 08:21 PM
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Unfortunately, we don't have the insider thread no more. so a lot of what we talked about might be happening, but we simply don't know.

Yes the sudden and relatively unexplained demise (see my sig) of the insider thread was odd considering the popularity of the thread. I won't speculate since many odd things occur in this HDM space, like independent companies such as NetFlix and Bestbuy announcing things on same day...

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It's a shame that their marketing just plain sucks. They seem to have relied on beating the BD group to the punch by delivering a product first, it doesn't appear to me that they had much of a plan beyond that except for keeping prices low.

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It doesn't seem that Toshiba has any clue how to save HD DVD. As a firm supporter, I find all speculation pretty useless at this time

Perhaps they have a clue but don't have the power. They don't own a studio. Universal & Paramount have the power in this case not Toshiba. Toshiba owns hardware and clearly they have done what they could do on the hardware side.

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post #381 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 08:26 PM
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Anyway, I still think that Combos are the best way to go. No compromise. The average consumer won't care about disc art or the fact that you need to flip it to read a completely different format. After a few million players are established, they can eliminate combos and go to HD DVD only disc.

They could still produce full 1080p disks but the facts are (as has been known here for some time) the pure 1080p hd dvd disks are going to fade from the shelves of major retailers. DVD's however will not fade from the shelves so if DVD's were updgraded then the HD format would remain in the game.


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Toshiba needs to subsidize the cost in the short run until the idea takes off and I seriously think it will take off.

Studios don't have much risk, since Toshiba is subsidizing the HD cost.

Apparently it's not only a cost issue but also a capacity issue as in the capacity to produce DVD run volumes of disk in combo format. There apparently is not enough capacity currently to produce that many combos even if they were subsidized.

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post #382 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

They could still produce full 1080p disks but the facts are (as has been known here for some time) the pure 1080p hd dvd disks are going to fade from the shelves of major retailers. DVD's however will not fade from the shelves so if DVD's were updgraded then the HD format would remain in the game.

We have all known this since the original Blockbuster announcement - release only dual-format-disc releases then suddenly you will have Blockbuster and Netflix back stocking your HD titles - BY BRUTE FORCE!

And those claiming that a single layer for SD is not enough - as stated before, simply release all of the extras on a separate SD disc.

The key to this whole strategy is to have both versions of the main title on the one disc (so people can't flog of the SD version as they would if it was just included as a separate disc).

2008: BD+ hacked... payback time for Warner, Fox and Disney!
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They seem to have relied on beating the BD group to the punch by delivering a product first, it doesn't appear to me that they had much of a plan beyond that except for keeping prices low.

Not entirely - Amir (Microsoft) has stated many times that HD DVD have a long-term strategy. So I don't think simply a one-off fire-sale of players is anywhere near that kind of ball-park.

Expect a studio to flip for cash.

And expect a large player base by 2009.

Remember Blu-ray currently have 3 million players in North America - yet only sold 6 million discs (2 per player).
HD DVD currently have 1 million players in North America - and sold 4 million discs (4 per player).

A rapid uptake of HD DVD players will definitely even up the disc sales.

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post #384 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 09:12 PM
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Apparently it's not only a cost issue but also a capacity issue as in the capacity to produce DVD run volumes of disk in combo format. There apparently is not enough capacity currently to produce that many combos even if they were subsidized.

Yes, I understand this fact, but with Warner leaving the ship. It should open up 30% - 35% more capacity to print these combo disc. They only need to support 1 or 2 titles (meaning combos only with out a SD release) to put some faith back into HD DVD. This will reverse the domino effect, as it solves support on retail shelves and rentals. I doubt any business is willing to give up selling any Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks movies. They probably only need to work with 1 studio on this idea.

If this works, you can bet that there will be more demand to do this and more facility upgrades to meet demand. The general public can still buy their HD DVD hardware in confidence as they know they can get all their HD DVD combo movies anywhere.

The issue for studio is really centered on cost. Why do they want to add HD DVD if it won't be free for them. They need to spend money to author 1080p content and then they need to spend money to print out the HD side of the combo disc.

That is why I hope Toshiba has decided to consolidate the licensing of DVD technology with HD DVD technology. There should not be 2 seperate technology, and should be considered 1 tech. The benefit of winning this war is more profitable than having 2 seperate tech license. They either lose with HD DVD or phase out DVD. So it should be 1 license. If they solve that, then it comes down to cost to produce a disc. It probably cost $2 more to make a combo than a normal SD. Put a mark up to retailers and you realistically have a combo that should be $5 more than a normal SD DVD. If you print them out in the millions, you can probably cut that number in half $1 and $2.50 respectively. This is were Toshiba should spend their money to subsidize disc cost. If they can sell 5 million of these disc to retailers and online rental services, it would cost Toshiba $2.5 million dollars in subsidies. For 2 titles, it would cost them $5 million dollars. Much cheaper than the price to get exclusivity from Warner or Fox.

We all know that consumers are not buying DVD as much anymore and studios are scared due to that. Warner says it is because of the format war. So the bonus HD DVD content of Combos should bring consumer confidence back by showing them that they can buy an SD movie, but get the HD side completely FREE! So even if BR is winning, buying a Combo is no big deal, because it is the only way to get Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks movies and the price is the same as a SD release. In combination of a high quality low price upconverter that has a bonus HD DVD playing feature, it makes HD DVD just a great buy.

Will they do this? Of course not, because they want to FAIL!!!

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I've scan to some post here. Just out of curiosity, why all these discussions and creating ideas to save HD DVD? Everyone here seems so frazzled about "HD DVD should have done this or that.....". Why is it so hard not to resist and start accepting or supporting one format so that all of us movie lovers CAN enjoy the movies from ALL studios.

All these "clinging on" doesn't really help to a failing format. So why take all the trouble and waste energy just to come up with these ideas when you know it's not really gonna make a difference?

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post #386 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Striderprime00 View Post

Yes, I understand this fact, but with Warner leaving the ship. It should open up 30% - 35% more capacity to print these combo disc. They only need to support 1 or 2 titles (meaning combos only with out a SD release) to put some faith back into HD DVD. This will reverse the domino effect, as it solves support on retail shelves and rentals. I doubt any business is willing to give up selling any Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks movies. They probably only need to work with 1 studio on this idea.

If this works, you can bet that there will be more demand to do this and more facility upgrades to meet demand. The general public can still buy their HD DVD hardware in confidence as they know they can get all their HD DVD combo movies anywhere.

The issue for studio is really centered on cost. Why do they want to add HD DVD if it won't be free for them. They need to spend money to author 1080p content and then they need to spend money to print out the HD side of the combo disc.

That is why I hope Toshiba has decided to consolidate the licensing of DVD technology with HD DVD technology. There should not be 2 seperate technology, and should be considered 1 tech. The benefit of winning this war is more profitable than having 2 seperate tech license. They either lose with HD DVD or phase out DVD. So it should be 1 license. If they solve that, then it comes down to cost to produce a disc. It probably cost $2 more to make a combo than a normal SD. Put a mark up to retailers and you realistically have a combo that should be $5 more than a normal SD DVD. If you print them out in the millions, you can probably cut that number in half $1 and $2.50 respectively. This is were Toshiba should spend their money to subsidize disc cost. If they can sell 5 million of these disc to retailers and online rental services, it would cost Toshiba $2.5 million dollars in subsidies. For 2 titles, it would cost them $5 million dollars. Much cheaper than the price to get exclusivity from Warner or Fox.

We all know that consumers are not buying DVD as much anymore and studios are scared due to that. Warner says it is because of the format war. So the bonus HD DVD content of Combos should bring consumer confidence back by showing them that they can buy an SD movie, but get the HD side completely FREE! So even if BR is winning, buying a Combo is no big deal, because it is the only way to get Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks movies and the price is the same as a SD release. In combination of a high quality low price upconverter that has a bonus HD DVD playing feature, it makes HD DVD just a great buy.

Will they do this? Of course not, because they want to FAIL!!!

Why would they do this? Why would one studio want to be the thorn in all of the rest's side? Capacity, Security, Payoff.. whatever the reason is, they all want BD with the exception pf Paramount and universal. And for all we know they do now too. All of these studios have working relationships and overall have a home video market. Why would Universal or Paramount want to be total pricks just to piss everyone else off?
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post #387 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by hAPPY1977 View Post

I've scan to some post here. Just out of curiosity, why all these discussions and creating ideas to save HD DVD? Everyone here seems so frazzled about "HD DVD should have done this or that.....". Why is it so hard not to resist and start accepting or supporting one format so that all of us movie lovers CAN enjoy the movies from ALL studios.

All these "clinging on" doesn't really help to a failing format. So why take all the trouble and waste energy just to come up with these ideas when you know it's not really gonna make a difference?

Here are the reasons why I don't want to go BR a this time:

1) Players are overpriced. (Main reason for me, can't spend $400 for each of the 3 TV's in my home)
2) Multiple Profiles. (spend $1200 for 3 TVs now, and another $1200 for 3 TVs later)
3) Lacks a backward compatibility format. (my kids do not need HD portable players in the car)
4) Bully tactics to eliminate consumer choice.
5) BR favor industry first, consumers second. HD DVD favor consumers first, industry second.

"never give in, never give in, never, never, never, neverÂin nothing, great or small, large or pettyÂnever give in except to convictions of honour and good sense." - W. Churchill
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post #388 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Striderprime00 View Post

Here are the reasons why I don't want to go BR a this time:

1) Players are overpriced. (Main reason for me)
2) Multiple Profiles.
3) Lacks a backward compatibility format.
4) Bully tactics to eliminate consumer choice.
5) BR favor industry first, consumers second. HD DVD favor consumers first, industry second.

So your saying that the reason are just plain personal rather than practical? I can see that. But it's like fighting the government about how our taxes are used (Reader's Digest: Jan '08 issue). We bitch about it but that's all we can do. And knowing that, might as well look at things that makes life good.

Same way with this format war. I love movies, and I'm sure everyone here does too. But doing what you're saying is really gonna make a difference? Prolly not, just like how our taxes are used.

Talk to GOD, HE always listens..........

Fight Me!!!!
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post #389 of 464 Old 02-11-2008, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hAPPY1977 View Post

So your saying that the reason are just plain personal rather than practical? I can see that. But it's like fighting the government about how our taxes are used (Reader's Digest: Jan '08 issue). We bitch about it but that's all we can do. And knowing that, might as well look at things that makes life good.

Same way with this format war. I love movies, and I'm sure everyone here does too. But doing what you're saying is really gonna make a difference? Prolly not, just like how our taxes are used.

Not all of it is personal, price is a legit arguement that affects a lot of people. So is Backward compatibility, but you're probably right, it won't make a difference.

"never give in, never give in, never, never, never, neverÂin nothing, great or small, large or pettyÂnever give in except to convictions of honour and good sense." - W. Churchill
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post #390 of 464 Old 02-12-2008, 12:31 AM
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So your saying that the reason are just plain personal rather than practical?

The only point of the four listed that could be construed as personal would be bully tactics. All the others are legitimate concerns. I worry that, given most consumers' satisfaction with DVD, BD doesn't have what's needed to get HDM into the mainstream. The sooner that happens, the more films will be available. If BD kills HD DVD only to become a PS3 niche medium, its releases will focus on flashy films for teenage boys.
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