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post #271 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ondes View Post

Look I think ROC curves have been invented long time before you born and there is a lot of guys who know a lot of statistics and how to avoid biases when doing double blind tests. But you can do the experiment you want, I can demonstrate to you very easily, provided you're not totally deaf, that there is differences with parts. And the way you design your circuit still have big consequences on the final sound.
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Originally Posted by mchuckp View Post

So when you refer to the hi end audio industry being built on the placebo effect I assume you are still mostly referring to CD players. There is no way I'm believing that all recievers (for example) are equal. There's no way I'm believing that a HTIB (even if you put good speakers on it) will sound just as good as a high dollar receiver or even a mid-dollar receiver.
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Originally Posted by smitty View Post

The best thing to do is listen for yourself, and do what makes you happy. I've had a similar experience to yours, i.e., I listened to a few players very carefully and found a noticeable difference between some (although I was using good quality headphones and a high-end headphone amp, which may make it easier to discern certain differences). The notion that all of the players sounded exactly the same is ludicrous to me based on what I heard. But you really have to make your own judgment, based on what you heard and at the same time being open to what the data or science purports to show. Good luck!
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Originally Posted by starstern View Post

are you waiting me to change the term of credible ,to your liking' ,or me to wait you put credit to it ,and it will become credible 
There are here a bunch of people that have the impression that ganging up on others makes them right. Calling names (like trolls) is reserved just from them to others.
For example jitter means nothing for them, any CD spinner is the same for them, any crappy AVR is great, every POS that Walmart puts on shelf (designed primarily to be cheap) sounds the same like one that was designed specifically for audio quality... because they refuse to listen. They switch furiously between two sources at 1 second intervals and when that craziness overloads their brains, finally they have their response - everything sounds the same!
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post #272 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 04:17 PM
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^Your posts reek of desparation, like somebody lashing out after losing an argument. It's not very becoming.
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post #273 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

^Your posts reek of desparation, like somebody lashing out after losing an argument. It's not very becoming.
Again with insults. Sure that denotes that you have plenty of logical arguments.
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post #274 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Again with insults. Sure that denotes that you have plenty of logical arguments.

Insults? Who was it who just wrote this post:

"There are here a bunch of people that have the impression that ganging up on others makes them right. Calling names (like trolls) is reserved just from them to others.
For example jitter means nothing for them, any CD spinner is the same for them, any crappy AVR is great, every POS that Walmart puts on shelf (designed primarily to be cheap) sounds the same like one that was designed specifically for audio quality... because they refuse to listen. They switch furiously between two sources at 1 second intervals and when that craziness overloads their brains, finally they have their response - everything sounds the same!"

So you take the argument to ridiculous extremes, create a strawman instead of arguing the actual claims made by posters on here, and then use over the top language, and you think MY post was insulting? rolleyes.gif

I'll let readers determine who is more insulting.
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post #275 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 
There are here a bunch of people that have the impression that ganging up on others makes them right. Calling names (like trolls) is reserved just from them to others.
For example jitter means nothing for them, any CD spinner is the same for them, any crappy AVR is great, every POS that Walmart puts on shelf (designed primarily to be cheap) sounds the same like one that was designed specifically for audio quality... because they refuse to listen. They switch furiously between two sources at 1 second intervals and when that craziness overloads their brains, finally they have their response - everything sounds the same!

this post shows a great lack of understanding. unfortunately this poster has shown an unwillingness to even attempt to understand where the group of what he is calling trolls in is post, are coming from.

I've said it before and in light of the above post it is worthy of repeating, why take the time to learn when ignorance is instantaneous.


ps....to the author of the above post, don't bother baiting me into another of your silly arguments. i wont play that game with you any longer. this thread and a few others like it show your lack of understanding off to anyone who wishes to see. good luck to you, maybe one day you will see the light.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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post #276 of 298 Old 12-22-2013, 05:03 PM
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Next derrogatory post about another member gets a vacation...you guys all know better. Talk about products, not other members.


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post #277 of 298 Old 12-23-2013, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post


For example jitter means nothing for them,

Find me a well-crafted listening test that shows jitter in modern digital players to be an audible problem, and I'm with you, brother.

This is the best jitter test I know of:

] E. Benjamin and B. Gannon, ‘‘Theoretical and audible effects of
jitter on digital audio quality,’’ Preprint of the 105th AES
Convention, #4826 (1998).

This test is not a formal test for jitter, but if audible jitter in 44/16 systems is a problem the test methodology would have probably brought that out:

Authors: Meyer, E. Brad; Moran, David R. Affiliation: Boston Audio Society, Lincoln, MA, USA
JAES Volume 55 Issue 9 pp. 775-779; September 2007 Publication Date:September 15, 2007
Quote:
any CD spinner is the same for them,

Find me a well-crafted listening test that shows that the transports in modern digital players are an audible problem, and I'm with you, brother.
Quote:
any crappy AVR is great

Find me a well-crafted listening test that shows that modern AVRs create such an audible problem, and I'm with you, brother.
Quote:
every POS that Walmart puts on shelf (designed primarily to be cheap) sounds the same like one that was designed specifically for audio quality...

Please document that. I sense some frustration and hyperbole. ;-)
Quote:
because they refuse to listen. They switch furiously between two sources at 1 second intervals and when that craziness overloads their brains, finally they have their response - everything sounds the same!

Please document that. I sense some frustration and hyperbole. ;-)

I can't escape the idea that there are far fewer well-crafted listening tests because in some circles failing to make a serious effort at matching levels, failing to synchronize the music used for the comparison and failing to use any kind of modern bias controls is considered to be the best that we have in the way of listening evaluations.

Its all about the evidence!
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post #278 of 298 Old 12-23-2013, 12:24 PM
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I  did another test ,took cassette tapes been recorded 45 years ago , done with the that timer  big wheel to wheel tape recorder , recorded  distant from the person who was giving a lecture , who had  a thin flimsy voice , along with it was  lot back ground noise ,and was exploring ' whether a higher end system can replicate it to a extent that will be able to hear what he was lecturing in more then less  a clear crisp manner ,and YES I managed to a set-up  high quality dac and speakers to do just that ,while the inferior systems  wasn't able to pick up to understand almost  anything out of the lecture :

in light of this ,audible difference or not ,who cares" ,i just got the use of what its designed for ,in a much moire Superior manner ,no science test of any sort can question  factual results !

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post #279 of 298 Old 12-23-2013, 12:45 PM
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You can also rip it to a Dvd-R if you want. I do it all the time. Works great for home and in the car if your head unit play Dvd's.

I remember when products were built to last.
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post #280 of 298 Old 12-24-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starstern View Post

I  did another test ,took cassette tapes been recorded 45 years ago , done with the that timer  big wheel to wheel tape recorder , recorded  distant from the person who was giving a lecture , who had  a thin flimsy voice , along with it was  lot back ground noise ,and was exploring ' whether a higher end system can replicate it to a extent that will be able to hear what he was lecturing in more then less  a clear crisp manner ,and YES I managed to a set-up  high quality dac and speakers to do just that ,while the inferior systems  wasn't able to pick up to understand almost  anything out of the lecture :
in light of this ,audible difference or not ,who cares" ,i just got the use of what its designed for ,in a much moire Superior manner ,no science test of any sort can question  factual results !

Been there, done that many times. Tool of choice is a good pair of professional monitoring grade headphones.
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post #281 of 298 Old 12-24-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


Been there, done that many times. Tool of choice is a good pair of professional monitoring grade headphones.

tool of choice ? never heard of that "

the one i found to be best is beyer dt 880 

am planning to get lcd x 

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post #282 of 298 Old 02-01-2014, 06:07 PM
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the only time I think a DAC is needed is when the one in side the cd player is not good enough and if you're player is a transport. my denon dvd 5900 and Marantz cd63se sound great without a out board DAC.

tony4k
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post #283 of 298 Old 02-01-2014, 08:46 PM
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what dac if any you tried to compare ?

a 200 a 500 a 1000 dollar dac ?

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post #284 of 298 Old 02-03-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by starstern View Post

what dac if any you tried to compare ?
a 200 a 500 a 1000 dollar dac ?

Who me? Yes, all the way up to $3500.
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post #285 of 298 Old 02-03-2014, 12:24 PM
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and adding the dac to you marantz ,you haven't experienced any better dynamic ,transparency ,fidelity ,of sound quality 'is it that what you say ?

thae marantz in begin with is not best sounding ,as am reading in forums 

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/49952-cd-player-sound-quality-long.html

 

 

somehow the marantz don't know how to relate to a external dac so to say "???

 

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digital-sources/cd-players/marantz/cd-63se/prd_116945_1586crx.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom Line:   

This CD Player has left many with mixed feelings and I am no different from the rest. When I first lsitened to the CD-63SE, I immediately found it harsh, fatiguing, and thin sounding. It was very detailed, but coldly so. I do nearly all of my listening via the Sennheise 
r HD600s (which I highly recommend). At the time, I was a Grado SR125 owner and I was accustomed to my music with more warmth and body. The CD-63SE was everything I didn't want in a CD player, though it had a surprising dynamic range. 
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post #286 of 298 Old 02-04-2014, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by starstern View Post

and adding the dac to you marantz ,you haven't experienced any better dynamic ,transparency ,fidelity ,of sound quality 'is it that what you say ?
thae marantz in begin with is not best sounding ,as am reading in forums 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/49952-cd-player-sound-quality-long.html


somehow the marantz don't know how to relate to a external dac so to say "???

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digital-sources/cd-players/marantz/cd-63se/prd_116945_1586crx.aspx

People say the darnest things in forums. Often it is the blind misleading the blind.
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Bottom Line:   

This CD Player has left many with mixed feelings and I am no different from the rest. When I first lsitened to the CD-63SE, I immediately found it harsh, fatiguing, and thin sounding. It was very detailed, but coldly so. I do nearly all of my listening via the Sennheise 

r HD600s (which I highly recommend). At the time, I was a Grado SR125 owner and I was accustomed to my music with more warmth and body. The CD-63SE was everything I didn't want in a CD player, though it had a surprising dynamic range. 


I borrowed a CD 63 from a friend and tested it. It's just fine. Note that the thread you are quoting is really short. That's a sign that there was nothing of interest in it. The CD63 has an excellent reputation, and IME can be resonably be expected to sound great. This guy must have had a bug in his ear or some such.
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post #287 of 298 Old 02-04-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

the only time I think a DAC is needed is when the one in side the cd player is not good enough and if you're player is a transport. my denon dvd 5900 and Marantz cd63se sound great without a out board DAC.

what dac if any you tried to compare ?
a 200 a 500 a 1000 dollar dac ?

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post #288 of 298 Old 02-05-2014, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starstern View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

the only time I think a DAC is needed is when the one in side the cd player is not good enough and if you're player is a transport. my denon dvd 5900 and Marantz cd63se sound great without a out board DAC.
what dac if any you tried to compare ?

a 200 a 500 a 1000 dollar dac ?

In the past I've had a goodly variety of DACs to compare to, and I agree that players like the CD63SE are fully their sonic equal. The CD 63SE is no slouch!

One of the things that people probably don't want you to know that DAC chips that used to cost like $50 now cost less than $5 and they were always gross overkill for playing CDs.
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post #289 of 298 Old 02-06-2014, 05:50 PM
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thinking about having my cd63se modded.......any body have connects in northeast ohio or Pittsburgh ?

tony4k
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post #290 of 298 Old 02-08-2014, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

thinking about having my cd63se modded.......any body have connects in northeast ohio or Pittsburgh ?

On a good day mods like this do nothing. On a bad day the equipment gets brutalized. The CD63 was a classic machine as it came out of the factory. The usual advice is to look at room acoustics and speakers if you want improved sound quality.
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post #291 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

thinking about having my cd63se modded.......any body have connects in northeast ohio or Pittsburgh ?

This is probably the wrong forum to ask about the mods....... too many flat earthers and those of the "bits-is-bits" variety here. You may find more useful information elsewhere.
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post #292 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 12:50 PM
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This is probably the wrong forum to ask about the mods....... too many flat earthers and those of the "bits-is-bits" variety here. You may find more useful information elsewhere.

Flat earther? I've been called worse than that.
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post #293 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

This is probably the wrong forum to ask about the mods....... too many flat earthers and those of the "bits-is-bits" variety here. You may find more useful misleading information elsewhere.

You spelled something wrong, so I fixed your post for you. biggrin.gif

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post #294 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tbase1 View Post

thinking about having my cd63se modded.......any body have connects in northeast ohio or Pittsburgh ?

For $500 I'll do some mods for you that will make the soundstage depth approach 12 Fremers. I say "approach" because the laws of physics say it's impossible for soundstage depth to actually hit 12 Fremers, but with each technological advance, we can get closer.

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post #295 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

This is probably the wrong forum to ask about the mods....... too many flat earthers and those of the "bits-is-bits" variety here. You may find more useful information elsewhere.

Flat earther? I've been called worse than that.

The meaphor is questionable. What is a flat earther?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

"According to Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of 'flat earth darkness' among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the Earth's roundness as an established fact of cosmology."[3] Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference".[4]"

Therefore, the belief that there was a time when everybody believed that the earth was flat is itself, a myth. An accusation that one believes that the earth is flat is therefore prima facie evidence that the accuser believes in a myth.

I'm comfortable with that! ;-)
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post #296 of 298 Old 02-09-2014, 07:03 PM
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Gollllly. You fellers shore are gettin' all worked up about a lil 'ol mod question. Shoot, I was just funnin' with you all........
You guys is smart enough to know that, ain't ya?
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post #297 of 298 Old 04-21-2014, 10:49 PM
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    I have enjoyed everyones sharing so much, some of you can get downright Catty (mountain lion style). :) The political/religious/scientific/biased/apathetic/passionate views really offer a deepening into experiencing the amazing amount of research and opinion that is available.

     

      My "audio dealer" has a room with well over a f*%k load of money worth of equipment and I liked my modest (relatively) choice much better. Why? Because it is mine and because my search is over. Why else? Because I was convinced it was right for me. If I am to have a system for a life time, I want there to be no doubt.

   Now as for the wholistic integrity of my decision? I had to choose something that shared with me a love of what I was hearing and knowing I was getting value for my dollar. After reading this thread I have no idea weather I could have stuck with my old AVR and just got new speakers, but I will question my next purchases with a new inspiration and can test my presumptions with some helpful existing studies…..

     Am I getting milked of my hard earned dollars for nothing but purchasing nicer looking parts and labour from a country that is not getting screwed with s*^t wages and poor working conditions? Although I did get the NAD M3 amp and I think it is made in China (hopefully well treated workers).

I know this forum is a continuos stream of multiple choice answers! :eek::confused::rolleyes::p:) 

 

Well, well, well, if it isn't made by science it isn't made, by God!

 

    What becomes very helpful from all of the points of view (scientific and/or experiential) is to take my belief systems, thoughts/audible bias/pre conceived ideas and bring them into a new perspective and give my brain some exercise. Stop arguing and find the best solution for my needs, get scientific with a golden ear and an open heart. Test, rest and test. When the day is done rejoice with my final choice for it will lay the melody within me in the way I surely will hear!

 

    Thanks to all hear, reading your love of sound is audible to me!

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post #298 of 298 Old 04-21-2014, 10:58 PM
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So, I would like some feedback.

 

   I have a power amp and m3 and want a universal player…. 3d blu ray/CD/dvd. I was going to get a DAC and a player, now I wonder, what would be the best choices for saving money and getting quality in your opinion? Music/video from my computer and projector use.

 

   Testing time :D

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