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post #91 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

Is this kind of disparagement and derision really appropriate?

There was neither of that in my comment. The thread had been going for months, and when I made mention of it on another thread, Krabapple crashed the thread. He had not been previously involved. I was merely explaining to the baffled forum members what had transpired.
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post #92 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

A guy asks for a CDP recommendation for his system and this is what he gets. Jeeez.

I thought they were gonna try and control this kind of stuff around here. Must have just threw in the towel.

Well, you know, what equipment you choose has to do with a lot of things, from how it sounds to what it looks like, via the route of reliability, user interface, flashing lights and circling birds and basketweavers who twiddle their thumbs.

Seriously. Concentrating on mostly illusory things (like sound between properly functioning CD players) and ignoring things like "does the remote work right", "what kind of interfaces does it have", "does it look ugly", "does it have flashing purple neon lights", "how long is its CD loading time" and the like does not seem to very useful.

Nobody I know of evaluates equipment solely on its sound. Consider, if a CD player did sound "better" in a demonstrable way, it would be most likely to be due to some kind of distortion in its output (and, NOTE, there is nothing wrong with such a preference!!!!!), and such results are very, very likely to be very personal to the listener(s) in question.

Now, what does matter is how well it works otherwise, and certainly so.

Where I see the derailment happening is when people who appear to have an extremely antiscientific agenda leap in and begin to disparage science, scientists, and misteach basic theory and modern understanding. There is enough noise in the audio community, we do not need more.

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #93 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

Krabapple crashed the thread.


This really doesn't address the OP, but why do you think that some people (say, you) can "crash the thread", but others should be unwelcome? What do you fear from people who explain what modern science presently concludes?

James D. (jj) Johnston
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post #94 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

There was neither of that in my comment. The thread had been going for months, and when I made mention of it on another thread, Krabapple crashed the thread.

Actually, you didn't just 'make mention of it' on that thread (which is about DACs, a related topic) -- you posted a link to this thread. You posted it on a thread where I, and several others who apparently annoy you with our pesky factyness about the flaws of sighted comparisons, had already been posting for days if not weeks...often to reply to you.

Either you're naive enough to think that only the 'CDP difference' advocates on that thread would follow your link...or you're crying crocodile tears over something you had to know might happen when you posted the link.


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He had not been previously involved. I was merely explaining to the baffled forum members what had transpired.

And now I've merely filled in the blanks in your explanation.
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post #95 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jj_0001 View Post

This really doesn't address the OP, but why do you think that some people (say, you) can "crash the thread", but others should be unwelcome? What do you fear from people who explain what modern science presently concludes?

Because I hadn't joined this thread - why don't you look at the posts, since you seem fascinated with something that happened 5 days ago - and leave me alone?
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post #96 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

Actually, you didn't just 'make mention of it' on that thread (which is about DACs, a related topic) -- you posted a link to this thread.

I know what I did - do I have amnesia? It was you who suddenly decided to join a thread that had been in progress for months. Can't you find someone new to argue with?
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post #97 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwf1fan View Post

I know what I did - do I have amnesia? It was you who suddenly decided to join a thread that had been in progress for months.

So, according to you, I 'suddenly' decided to check it out...after you posted a link to it, in a thread I was participating in.

Surprise!

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Can't you find someone new to argue with?

Hint: I rarely argue with truthful posts.
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post #98 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I rarely argue with truthful posts.

How 'bout this - leave me alone!
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post #99 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 05:41 PM
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I'd like to take a few inexpensive CD players, replace the housings with Arcam fascia, and then let the golden-eared compare them to unmodified inexpensive units. I'd bet money on which units would be deemed to "sound better."

For the OP: choose your CD player based on features, aesthetics, reliability, brand preference, price or phase of the moon. All of these factors profoundly influence, if not completely determine, your perception of performance.

We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.
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post #100 of 197 Old 09-23-2008, 10:36 PM
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(Yes, we're DEFINITELY off topic - I don't remember the OP asking "convince me NOT to listen to these CD players before I choose one of them.")

Okay, okay - I've got an open mind, engineer-trained, and I like reading.

Point me to some linky's on some ABX tests done on modern CD players around the same price point. It's time for me to learn (honestly!).

As for OP (IF you're still reading this thread), I've never heard anything I didn't like from Rega in terms of digital.
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post #101 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 05:48 AM
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The Planet sucked.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #102 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milaz001 View Post

I'd like to take a few inexpensive CD players, replace the housings with Arcam fascia, and then let the golden-eared compare them to unmodified inexpensive units. I'd bet money on which units would be deemed to "sound better."

For the OP: choose your CD player based on features, aesthetics, reliability, brand preference, price or phase of the moon. All of these factors profoundly influence, if not completely determine, your perception of performance.

Something like this happened when a product from Goldmund was reviewed over at Stereophile. The unit was a rebadged Pioneer.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #103 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by milaz001 View Post

I'd like to take a few inexpensive CD players, replace the housings with Arcam fascia, and then let the golden-eared compare them to unmodified inexpensive units. I'd bet money on which units would be deemed to "sound better."

I have no doubt whatsoever that you would win that bet.
You could even take it a step farther by swapping the circuitry between a cheap player an outrageously expensive one. The one that looks fancier would undoubtably still be percieved as "sounding better".
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post #104 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Christian View Post

Point me to some linky's on some ABX tests done on modern CD players around the same price point. It's time for me to learn (honestly!).

You're not going to find much floating around that is publicly accessible. Two reasons for that: 1) there's little point in performing such tests any more; 2) the people doing it are manufacturers. There are older tests at ABX Double Blind Test Results: CD Players & DA Converters. Edit: if you want to get yourself an AES membership you should be able to find such information in their archives.

However, if you want to play with learning what is or is not audible then you might want to download a copy of Foobar 2000 and try comparing the various MP3 and AAC formats to each other. The highly likely result is that you will discover that you can't discriminate between, say 256K VBR AAC and a lossless copy (WAV, FLAC or otherwise). At that point you've got to question exactly how you are supposed to hear the difference between two CD players where the difference will be miniscule in comparison.
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post #105 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HaroldTheBarrel View Post

I have no doubt whatsoever that you would win that bet.
You could even take it a step farther by swapping the circuitry between a cheap player an outrageously expensive one. The one that looks fancier would undoubtably still be percieved as "sounding better".

And at that point it might be; sometimes it seems the only thing done to such "higher end" devices is to muck around with the EQ to hit a certain target market segment preferences (IE; adult males over 30 who find flat treble response irritating).
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post #106 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 08:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HaroldTheBarrel View Post

I have no doubt whatsoever that you would win that bet.
You could even take it a step farther by swapping the circuitry between a cheap player an outrageously expensive one. The one that looks fancier would undoubtably still be percieved as "sounding better".

But the problem is some of these subjectivists are still not convinced even after events like that. How do I know? I've seen cases where those believers repeat same thing on a forum couple months later. Basically they lie to themselves about what they saw even if it was 1+1=2 that they saw.

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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

As far as I can see, the only reason one can have for not wanting to believe that double blind testing works is a vested interest in denying reality. I can see several different variations of such vested interest here on AVS:

1) you are a manufacturer or vendor who wants to fleece consumers by marketing products at high prices with no real value over similar lower priced equipment;

2) you are a consumer who has been fleeced by such manufacturers and you don't want to admit to yourself or anyone else that you have been taken advantage of;

3) you are reviewer (or random Internet poster) who wishes to have other people believe that you somehow have sensory capabilities that normal human beings do not posses.

That's a good categorization however I've noticed an additional category. Some seem to be 4) mental case. For those, no matter how good your explanation is, it's a waste of time.
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post #107 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

That's a lie. No one says that.

Check your post no 14 (I think).
Every post before that was a personal opinion by various posters.
YOU were the 1st to post as if there was conclusive fact (which there is not).
Guess that makes your post the lie, not mine

Cheers
DT
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post #108 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by scientest View Post

You're not going to find much floating around that is publicly accessible. Two reasons for that: 1) there's little point in performing such tests any more; 2) the people doing it are manufacturers. There are older tests at ABX Double Blind Test Results: CD Players & DA Converters. Edit: if you want to get yourself an AES membership you should be able to find such information in their archives.

However, if you want to play with learning what is or is not audible then you might want to download a copy of Foobar 2000 and try comparing the various MP3 and AAC formats to each other. The highly likely result is that you will discover that you can't discriminate between, say 256K VBR AAC and a lossless copy (WAV, FLAC or otherwise). At that point you've got to question exactly how you are supposed to hear the difference between two CD players where the difference will be miniscule in comparison.

Sadly those involved with the ABX in the link lack the core and context strategy on testing, in as far any testing should highlight/explain the hardware and technological differences between A and B, otherwise the choice of equipment can be flawed.
Look back to when I mentioned Geoffrey Moore.

Scientist, in general not having available info from DBT testing makes it rather difficult to accept, especially when the tests and their process/results cannot be shared but are mentioned.

Could you at least tell us where and when the articles were published and the background of the test - persons involved or research team.
Without breaking copyright I would had thought the publish summary could still be shared.

At least this would help a little.
Cheers
DT
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post #109 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Basically they lie to themselves about what they saw even if it was 1+1=2 that they saw.

That's a good categorization however I've noticed an additional category. Some seem to be 4) mental case. For those, no matter how good your explanation is, it's a waste of time.

Is this kind of offensive, derogatory talk appropriate? This sounds like a Klan meeting.

Obviously, there is only one reason that people reject DBT results: it disagrees with their own listening experiences. While you can argue with their reasoning, there's no need to make personal attacks.
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post #110 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian View Post

(Yes, we're DEFINITELY off topic - I don't remember the OP asking "convince me NOT to listen to these CD players before I choose one of them.")

Okay, okay - I've got an open mind, engineer-trained, and I like reading.

Point me to some linky's on some ABX tests done on modern CD players around the same price point. It's time for me to learn (honestly!).

Point me to some reason why we should assume they really sound different (i.e., not due to simple output voltage difference), given typical measured performance of modern CD players (you can get these data from audio magazine reviews, or less reliably, from mfr specs).
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post #111 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:29 AM
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DulcetTones,


This is what you wrote:

Quote:


Actually the 1st one to state anything was DBT crowd in this thread who state everything sounds same due to tests.


It is a lie that the 'DBT crowd' state 'everything sounds the same due to tests'. You know this is a lie, as you've been called out on your strawman before.

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Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Check your post no 14 (I think).
Every post before that was a personal opinion by various posters.
YOU were the 1st to post as if there was conclusive fact (which there is not).
Guess that makes your post the lie, not mine

Cheers
DT

Post #14 is yours. In post 13, I do not say that 'everything sounds the same due to tests', nor does anyone else in any other post. THAT is the lie I was pointing out.

In post #13, as anyone can see, I wrote that attributes of 'sound' of CDPs have a strong possibility of being due to sighted bias, or bad design, or simple output level difference.

I believe this to be true, just as mechani believes in post #3 that

Quote:


First, "best" is such a subjective term. While one person may prefer a full bodied, lush presentation, another may prefer accuracy and transparency, which might be too thin for the other person. And that's not even considering bass, which would get you all over the place. So, unfortunately, the only way to find out what will work for you in your system is to take home the component and listen to it.

Second, since you are using an AV receiver, and not an analog amplifier, I presume you will be using a digital cable and the receiver's DAC. In this case, it may not matter that much which of these two players you choose. Keep in mind that recent NAD products seem to suffer from reliability issues (just Google "NAD reliability" to understand what I mean).

So, is his post 'personal opinion' and mine 'fact', and if so, why?
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post #112 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Sadly those involved with the ABX in the link lack the core and context strategy on testing, in as far any testing should highlight/explain the hardware and technological differences between A and B, otherwise the choice of equipment can be flawed.
Look back to when I mentioned Geoffrey Moore.

Scientist, in general not having available info from DBT testing makes it rather difficult to accept, especially when the tests and their process/results cannot be shared but are mentioned.


These were not papers published in JAES or other peer-reviewed scientific journals. That's because first, who would fund such probably-pointless studies, and second, most scientists with any knowledge of human hearing would find the idea of level-matched CDPs sounding different ludicrous, once they were informed of the measured performance of typical CDPs. That's because they would be aware of the data from decades of work on human hearing, that jj has referenced. People like you keep writing as if direct listening tests of CDPs are the ONLY pillar of evidence upon which to conclude that CDPs aren't likely to sound different when level-matched. It's not. Inference from what is already known about limits of human hearing, compared to how CDPs perform, is a powerful line of evidence as well.

Anyway, the site's summary is of tests usually tests done by audio hobbyist societies...you know, by *audiophiles*. It's a convenient answer to the nattering from people like you who routinely start out by demanding to see ABX results, as if there were none. For more details -- beyond what teh ABX site gives (and I'm curious why you find its explanations inadequate) -- you'd want to write to those societies.

Which isn't to say JAES never publishes blind test studies of audio. Meyer and Moran's recent paper reporting listening comparisons between DSD (SACD) and Redbook , where there proved to be no statistical difference between the two at anything but earsplitting levels, is an example. You can bet the 'audiophile' world was in a tizzy about that one. If CD and the much-hyped DSD tend to sound the same, 'dya think CDPs, which merely play Redbook, tend to sound different?

here's the paper and supplementary materials

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm
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post #113 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tcb-player View Post

Obviously, there is only one reason that people reject DBT results: it disagrees with their own listening experiences. While you can argue with their reasoning, there's no need to make personal attacks.

Refer to post # 83.
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post #114 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Basically they lie to themselves about what they saw even if it was 1+1=2 that they saw.

Michael Schermer has a book that speaks to this ("Why People Believe Weird Things..."). My personal opinion is that this is endemic to the human condition. For example, consider the following article in the Washington Post.

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post #115 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by HaroldTheBarrel View Post

Refer to post # 83.

I'm not sure what part of post 83 you're referring to, but if it's this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by scientest View Post

As far as I can see, the only reason one can have for not wanting to believe that double blind testing works is a vested interest in denying reality. I can see several different variations of such vested interest here on AVS:

1) you are a manufacturer or vendor who wants to fleece consumers by marketing products at high prices with no real value over similar lower priced equipment;

2) you are a consumer who has been fleeced by such manufacturers and you don't want to admit to yourself or anyone else that you have been taken advantage of;

3) you are reviewer (or random Internet poster) who wishes to have other people believe that you somehow have sensory capabilities that normal human beings do not posses.

this is part of the offensive posting I was referring to. The sentence beginning with "as far as I can see" is an example of derogatory sarcasm - the poster is not meaning his statement literally, but rather as a put-down.

So how does your reference help?
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post #116 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tcb-player View Post

While you can argue with their reasoning, there's no need to make personal attacks.

To whom?
I was just referencing what I've seen on internet forums.
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post #117 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Could you at least tell us where and when the articles were published and the background of the test - persons involved or research team.
Without breaking copyright I would had thought the publish summary could still be shared.

See what you can pull from the AES site, but I suspect you'll have to pay the $125 + 80 if you want to see even summaries. A Google search on AES and ABX and / or double blind may also pull up articles that have been made public.
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post #118 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tcb-player View Post

The sentence beginning with "as far as I can see" is an example of derogatory sarcasm - the poster is not meaning his statement literally, but rather as a put-down.

Umm, no. I meant "As far as I can tell", no more, no less.
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post #119 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tcb-player View Post

So how does your reference help?

It helps because it explains the only three reasons why anyone could possibly doubt the results of DBTs (specifically the result that more expensive CDPs do not sound better.)
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post #120 of 197 Old 09-24-2008, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

To whom?
I was just referencing what I've seen on internet forums.

Wanna try explaining that again?
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

That's a good categorization however I've noticed an additional category. Some seem to be 4) mental case. For those, no matter how good your explanation is, it's a waste of time.

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