The "Official" All CD Players Sound the Same Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Because there's nothing to learn from that.

If I told you I took an aspirin, and my eyesight improved, what would you learn from that? That aspirin improves your vision?

I laughed.
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post #92 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Denophile View Post


Have you ever considered that it could also be just the other way around? If you want to go down that road then consider that those of you saying there is no diference, who are using what you describe as science (which is employed in a non scientific way) to justify your assertions, are just as susceptible to the claims that you are justifying your pourchases of more 'downscale' gear. Then in order to justify that it is just as good as the ultra high end gear and you use "psychoacoustics" to make this assertion.

.

It would be difficult for anyone to not come away with this opinion after reading though the numerous threads hijacked on this subject.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #93 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

This may lie at the heart of the turbulence. What is a, "knowledgeable person?"
One who has spent 50 years listening to music as a hobby/passion or an engineer/psychologist?

What makes you think that engineers/psychologists have not listened to music?
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post #94 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

if a poster, in earnest provides you information that he and so and so have heard a difference between two units why not learn from that?
Your argument is not consistent.

The only thing I have argued in this thread, is that both sides should be able to post their opinion. How is that inconsistent?
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post #95 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

seems to me there is a difference between sharing thoughts on sound and being told that your perceptions of sound are not valid.

It also seems to me that if a poster is clearly not interested in a pseudo scientific evaluation of sound and states so his wishes should be respected. I personally promise to never post or comment on a thread about CD differences if the OP requests that only measurable scientific data be submitted. Why can't you do the same?

I take back what I said earlier, you do appear to have an agenda. To silence those that you disagree with.
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post #96 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Typical one sided view. To me it looks like both sides are just trying to prove their view is the correct view, neither seems to have an agenda.

BTW, I love the "my wife heard it too" argument, very convincing.

Interesting that you belittled my comment about my wife hearing the difference. I actually found it very inspiring as my wife has no interest in my audio or my music. She also had previously commented on the difference between a Redbook CD and a SACD. As it is only what she perceives unsolicited you believe I should dismiss it?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #97 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

The only thing I have argued in this thread, is that both sides should be able to post their opinion. How is that inconsistent?

In this thread, I am fine with anyone posting from what has become "either camp." As I said it depends on the OP.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #98 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

What makes you think that engineers/psychologists have not listened to music?

My question is, "what is a knowledge listener."

Your response only side steps the question.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #99 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

What makes you think that engineers/psychologists have not listened to music?

Maybe you should spend time on DIYaudio and see what the engineers actually say and also read some threads that the original designers provide input on their original designs being modded
Before anyone jumps in to say scientific ABX, look at what William said please.

DT
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post #100 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Because there's nothing to learn from that.

If I told you I took an aspirin, and my eyesight improved, what would you learn from that? That aspirin improves your vision?

Your analogy is invalid and your tone is rude. Do you have something to contribute?

On a side note Aspirin does seem to have an effect on vision and research on the effects is ongoing.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #101 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

My question is, "what is a knowledge listener."

Your response only side steps the question.

It didn't side step your strawman question at all. You imply the the engineer/psychologist doesn't listen to music.

Lets assume they listen to music just as much as the hobbiest. Sounds to me like the engineer would have more "knowledge". As far as the psychologist, I suppose it would depend wether or not they have any interest in audio perceptiom.


Quote:
This may lie at the heart of the turbulence. What is a, "knowledgeable person?"
One who has spent 50 years listening to music as a hobby/passion or an engineer/psychologist?

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post #102 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

It didn't side step your strawman question at all. You imply the the engineer/psychologist doesn't listen to music.

Lets assume they listen to music just as much as the hobbiest. Sounds to me like the engineer would have more "knowledge". As far as the psychologist, I suppose it would depend wether or not they have any interest in audio perceptiom.

I did not ask who was the most knowledgeable person.
I asked who was a knowledgeable person.

do you feel the music enthusiast is or not?

Just an FYI it is not a straw man question.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #103 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 09:49 AM
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It's Sunday morning in Chicago. Cold. Windy..... Very cold. Very windy.
Let's see what's up on AVS. (Browsing threads). Oh no. Not another "I can
hear a difference" "No you can't" extravaganza with all the subsequent
"DBT this" and "condescending that" noise. Pulllleeeez! (Yawns, stretches,
scratches hind end). Time to go back to bed. Wake me when this one's ovah!
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post #104 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:01 AM
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Which CD players do you currently use and why?
What were the deciding factors in your selection?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #105 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I did not ask who was the most knowledgeable person.
I asked who was a knowledgeable person.

do you feel the music enthusiast is or not?

Just an FYI it is not a straw man question.

Guess I would have to determine that on an individual basis. I do know that ignoring all the studies on audio perception, certainly doesn't make one knowledgeable.
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post #106 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

It's Sunday morning in Chicago. Cold. Windy..... Very cold. Very windy.
Let's see what's up on AVS. (Browsing threads). Oh no. Not another "I can
hear a difference" "No you can't" extravaganza with all the subsequent
"DBT this" and "condescending that" noise. Pulllleeeez! (Yawns, stretches,
scratches hind end). Time to go back to bed. Wake me when this one's ovah!

Bored with the topic already, on your first post? If that's the case, why click on the thread? Was the thread title misleading?
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post #107 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Maybe you should spend time on DIYaudio and see what the engineers actually say and also read some threads that the original designers provide input on their original designs being modded
Before anyone jumps in to say scientific ABX, look at what William said please.
DT

You seriously think that those blundering hobbyists on DIYAudio are *real* engineers?

They are just big boys with soldering irons having fun. I wish them the best!
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post #108 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Bored with the topic already, on your first post? If that's the case, why click on the thread? Was the thread title misleading?

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho.(laughing hysterically).
Oh jeez, stop it. You're killin' me!

Oh waitress, could I have a little more condescension with my coffee?
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post #109 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

if a poster, in earnest provides you information that he and so and so have heard a difference between two units why not learn from that?
Your argument is not consistent.

What new thing could possibly be learned from watching someone proudly practicing self-deception?

If I want to see people practicing self-deception on that scale, I could stop by the nearest lottery sales office.
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post #110 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Guess I would have to determine that on an individual basis. I do know that ignoring all the studies on audio perception, certainly doesn't make one knowledgeable.

Why would one need to read diagrams and charts to now what sounds best to them?

As I had suspected, a 50 year music enthusiast is not to be considered a knowledgeable person when posting here.
Here we have a fundamental disagreement which cascades into CD player issue.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #111 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Agenda? Well if I hear a difference between two CD players (what is my agenda?)

Your agenda is either bragging about having superhuman hearing or complaining that you have at least one really crappy CD player.

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and my wife (without being aware a change to my system had been made) hears it too (what is my agenda?)

Your agenda is bragging about how far your wife will go to make her old man happy.

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Conversely when I make such a post I am told it is all psycho something and coincidence,

A sincere attempt is being made to educate you in the ways of the world so that you won't be suckered in by the magic music player myth.

Quote:
unsolicited info,

Wrong, when you made your posts there was an implied solicitation of comments.


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that to me seems to be an agenda.

Once you get the telephone pole-sized agendas out of your eye, we can talk about the possibility of there being a few grains of dust in mine.

The tone of your posts reminds me that no good deed ever goes unpunished.
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post #112 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

This may lie at the heart of the turbulence. What is a, "knowledgeable person?"
One who has spent 50 years listening to music as a hobby/passion or an engineer/psychologist?

Why must it be an either/or?

I'll admit to all of the above, except 50 years is probably a tad short.
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post #113 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Why would one need to read diagrams and charts to now what sounds best to them?

What does that have to do with knowledge?

Quote:
As I had suspected, a 50 year music enthusiast is not to be considered a knowledgeable person when posting here.
Here we have a fundamental disagreement which cascades into CD player issue.

How did you come to that conclusion, from my statement?
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post #114 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Well if I hear a difference between two CD players and my wife (without being aware a change to my system had been made) hears it too and I post that info, what is my agenda?

I get the sense from reading your posts within this thread that you either haven't made any reasonable attempt to examine and understand the arguments being raised in opposition to your own point-of-view, or, you're simply not interested in doing that. That is, you know what you know and are content in that "knowledge", or more specifically, content to let your own and others listening experience dictate what you believe to be true.

If you disagree with my assessment, particularly my statement in regards to how you havn't carefully considered the arguments & evidence of the other side, then please prove me wrong. Placing yourself in the other camp for just a moment, what specific fault can be found in the assertion you've made in the post I've quoted above (the text I've highlighted in bold, specifically)? To make it even easier for you, I'll put it this way.. what basic technical aspect about cd players can create an impression of difference where none really exists?

This is not a difficult challenge, btw. I just gave you an opportunity to make a layup here because this is a commonly raised objection which you should know well by now, if you've been even half paying attention to the "objectivist" arguments. If you can 'regurgitate' the objection, then at least I'll know you've made a reasonable attempt to understand the case presented by the opposition, but still disagree. If you cannot, it will confirm my suspicions about your total lack of comprehension about the arguments and concepts being presented in opposition of your own.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #115 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

I get the sense from reading your posts within this thread that you either haven't made any reasonable attempt to examine and understand the arguments being raised in opposition to your own point-of-view, or, you're simply not interested in doing that. That is, you know what you know and are content in that "knowledge", or more specifically, content to let your own and others listening experience dictate what you believe to be true.

If you disagree with my assessment, particularly my statement in regards to how you havn't carefully considered the arguments & evidence of the other side, then please prove me wrong. Placing yourself in the other camp for just a moment, what specific fault can be found in the assertion you've made in the post I've quoted above (the text I've highlighted in bold, specifically)? To make it even easier for you, I'll put it this way.. what basic technical aspect about cd players can create an impression of difference where none really exists?

This is not a difficult challenge, btw. I just gave you an opportunity to make a layup here because this is a commonly raised objection which you should know well by now, if you've been even half paying attention to the "objectivist" arguments. If you can 'regurgitate' the objection, then at least I'll know you've made a reasonable attempt to understand the case presented by the opposition, but still disagree. If you cannot, it will confirm my suspicions about your total lack of comprehension about the arguments and concepts being presented in opposition of your own.

Who the He ll are you?

The only thing that you should take from my reply is that you are so obnoxious that I will not reply in earnest to you or anyone else as grandiose.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #116 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Ha ha ha. Ho ho ho.(laughing hysterically).
Oh jeez, stop it. You're killin' me!

Oh waitress, could I have a little more condescension with my coffee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 View Post

It's Sunday morning in Chicago. Cold. Windy..... Very cold. Very windy.
Let's see what's up on AVS. (Browsing threads). Oh no. Not another "I can
hear a difference" "No you can't" extravaganza with all the subsequent
"DBT this" and "condescending that" noise. Pulllleeeez! (Yawns, stretches,
scratches hind end). Time to go back to bed. Wake me when this one's ovah!

After three long years of forum membership, you finally decide to post and this is what we get? You seemed a whole lot smarter when you weren't saying anything.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #117 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:07 AM
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<<<<>>>>>>

I think it interesting to see what you own and why. This is not a set up or troll question. I am sincerely interested in the though process since it seems much different than mine.


<<<<<<<<How did you come to that conclusion, from my statement?>>>>>>

Because in your post you held that a 50 year enthusiast may or may not be, placing yourself as the determiner.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #118 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Who the He ll are you?

The only thing that you should take from my reply is that you are so obnoxious that I will not reply in earnest to you or anyone else as grandiose.

As has been brought up before, there is no debate. Only dismissal...

Volcan, as someone who appears to supports non-trolling, why have you still not removed this thread?
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post #119 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Who the He ll are you?

The only thing that you should take from my reply is that you are so obnoxious that I will not reply in earnest to you or anyone else as grandiose.

Just as I suspected you would do. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #120 of 1168 Old 12-28-2008, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Why must it be an either/or?

I'll admit to all of the above, except 50 years is probably a tad short.

My initial question was asked to highlight the problem with this CD issue.
The "all the same" advocate shows no respect for the group I most revere and I thought this question would help illustrate that to them and cause to reflect.

The ansewer to you is, it does not have to be.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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