The "Official" All CD Players Sound the Same Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

If wanting to follow a more engineering discussion there is one currently going on a link I am providing, has a few senior audio designer/consultant engineers and one senior scientific engineer in the discussion, and others who are just audio fans but it is easy to tell who knows what (there will be inconsistencies due to it being an open forum just like here).

Looks to me like good ole John is being handed his head on a plate.

Quote:


Worth following the discussion anyway if interested in a deeper engineering level about clocking (also shows the price of the better clocks that can be from $500 to $3500).

Why would one be interested in clocking when even $200 multichannel receivers come with perfectly adequate ones?

I think a lot of inmates at that DIY asylum would die if they knew about the clocks that are used to produce the recordings they listen to day in, and day out.


Quote:


Once you get past the cabling chat it moves on to clocking, and some food for thought chatter.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...pagenumber=467

Been there, posted there, don't expect to have many friends.

Quote:


Bear in mind that it is a forum so there are those making factual mistakes that are usually corrected by others, or multiple points of view exist but without the arguments shown here.

The following was fun:

"I have a demo board of an "ultra clock" to evaluate. I fired the sucker up and connected it to a modulation analyzer (much easier than a bunch of specialized hardware) and looked for some residual FM in its output. I got 6% modulation at 30 KHz!!! Something must be wrong. So in looking at the board there is a switching supply on it for supporting some other circuitry. And the supply seems to be modulating the ultra low jitter clock, a lot. I don't understand what happened but clearly someone didn't see the importance of keeping the noises away from the clock. Possibly they didn't detect this issue. Somehow."

IOW, the people who installed this product in a good CD player were well on their way to screwing up, big time! I wonder how many of them posted glowing reviews on some web site, some place.
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post #182 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

If wanting to follow a more engineering discussion there is one currently going on a link I am providing, has a few senior audio designer/consultant engineers and one senior scientific engineer in the discussion, and others who are just audio fans but it is easy to tell who knows what (there will be inconsistencies due to it being an open forum just like here).
Worth following the discussion anyway if interested in a deeper engineering level about clocking (also shows the price of the better clocks that can be from $500 to $3500).
Once you get past the cabling chat it moves on to clocking, and some food for thought chatter.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...pagenumber=467

Bear in mind that it is a forum so there are those making factual mistakes that are usually corrected by others, or multiple points of view exist but without the arguments shown here.
I am just posting it as a discussion to follow for a heads up to give another angle to this thread.

Cheers
DT

Thanks DT. Some interesting stuff on this link.
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post #183 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Likely because they are not agenda driven.

Exactly. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
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post #184 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:26 AM
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Arny,
you just shown how bias those who keep on about scientific DBT and their attitude to the engineers who know how to build the equipment in the 1st place.
Of course your knowledge is greater than those who build these products
And your attitude to JC and the others sums up as usual how they know nothing and you guys know all but without going into engineering detail.

Anyway others will have more of an open mind.

Cheers
DT
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post #185 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

Arny,
you just shown how bias those who keep on about scientific DBT and their attitude to the engineers who know how to build the equipment in the 1st place.

No, you've confused a bunch of posers and sincere but mislead people with "The people who know how to build the equipment in the 1st place'.

The people who how to build the equipment in the 1st place belong to organizations like the IEEE, AES, ASA, etc. and publish in their refereed publications. They belong to standards organizations like the ITU, MPEG, etc.

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Of course your knowledge is greater than those who build these products.

Not at all. But I know a goodly bunch of them personally, and I know where many of the rest hang.

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And your attitude to JC and the others sums up as usual how they know nothing and you guys know all but without going into engineering detail.

Bring on your experts who know about the engineering detail. I'm a degreed engineer. I've built my share of audio gear from scratch. Even ask JC who I am, he knows about who I am (and probably down in his heart fears) me.

Read about me here:

http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/

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Anyway others will have more of an open mind.

Having an open mind doesn't mean having holes in your head.
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post #186 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:48 AM
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Having an open mind doesn't mean having holes in your head.

Of couse not. In audio it means trusting only your ears. Of course you must be able to see what you are listening to, or you can't fully trust your ears.
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post #187 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asrale View Post

If all CD players theoretically sounded the same, most of them would still find a willing market due to aesthetics - some people don't care about looks, and then there are others who'd be willing to shell out for something that looks like an art piece or from the future.

I would personally still be willing to pay for the price level of Arcam equipment ($1K-$3K) on aesthetics alone as I don't like how generic mass-market electronic devices look. Sound quality aside, there's just something I like about the Arcam aesthetic!

+1

People can and do routinely buy gear because of the way it looks (or the way it's priced, or its feature set, or a combination) The 'debate' only arises when people come to believe that because they like the 'look' of a CDP, it must sound better (different) from the rest.
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post #188 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:51 AM
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I know who you are, going all the way back to JC and the interconnects, which others resolved in better detail than you

BTW most of those I am talking about are IEEE members, and so is JC, with the scientific engineer dealing with ITU.

It seems to me your bias is very strong against anyone who is involved with engineering if it is to do with audio.
That is fine, but you should acknowledge your bias, this comes out even more with these recent discussions with you.

Cheers
DT
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post #189 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Wow.
You leave me speechless.
Yes anything is possible.

but it can't be that the new player just sounds better?

I didn't say that.

Fact is, everything isn't equally probable. But the other fact is, the possibilities I cited are at least a probable, if not more, as the one you cite. The last fact is, you haven't provided anything near good evidence for your claim...that would involve ruling out the two possibilities I named.

This is a forum. You get to post , everyone gets to comment. If you only care about convincing yourself, then why do you care about anyone's critique of your method for convincing yourself?
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post #190 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

In audio it means trusting only your ears.

Hold that thought.

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Of course you must be able to see what you are listening to, or you can't fully trust your ears.

Darn it all! You couldn't hold that one good thought you had at the beginning of your post.

What went wrong?
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post #191 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

I know who you are, going all the way back to JC and the interconnects, which others resolved in better detail than you

Please explain.

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BTW most of those I am talking about are IEEE members, and so is JC, with the scientific engineer dealing with ITU.

Just because you are a member of these organizations, doesn't mean that the organization supports your ideas.

Support for your thinking comes in the form of publication of refereed papers. AFAIK, the guys you talk to score zero on that count, while the guys I talk to score well. Not just conference papers but journal papers.

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It seems to me your bias is very strong against anyone who is involved with engineering if it is to do with audio.

Absolute nonsense. In fact many present and past officers of professional audio engineering societies (e.g. AES) are personal friends. I've known them and their families for decades and even have been business partners with a few of them.

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That is fine, but you should acknowledge your bias, this comes out even more with these recent discussions with you.

For example, around 3 pm today I will be visiting with at least one AES Fellow at his home, and also with a number of past and present AES officers. Around 6 pm at dinner, I might recount this conversation of ours with them.

I predict that they will again chastise me for wasting time with people like you.

Sorry man, but that is how it is.
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post #192 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

You should know by now Charles that the kitchen is the best place to hear differences.

Well, thanks I need to remind myself of this, from time to time
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post #193 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbis View Post

My agenda is to go get my levels matched and hopefully get out of the nut house. Note to self: All CD players sound the same. Again. All CD players sound the same. Again. All CD players sound the same. Again. All CD players sound the same. Again. All CD players sound the same.

Almost cured.

Well, with those thoughts and distortions, you will never be cured
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post #194 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Asrale View Post

..., most of them would still find a willing market due to aesthetics - some people don't care about looks, and then there are others who'd be willing to shell out for something that looks like an art piece or from the future. I would personally still be willing to pay for the price level of Arcam equipment ($1K-$3K) on aesthetics alone as I don't like how generic mass-market electronic devices look. Sound quality aside, there's just something I like about the Arcam aesthetic!

That is a valid and legitimate reasons to pay more for such issues of preference and, many will. No one can dispute that. Just the parts that can be tested, audible differences
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post #195 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DulcetTones View Post

... it moves on to clocking,
Cheers
DT

Clocking? When has that been an issue? Jitter reasons? Hardly credible.
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post #196 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Looks to me like good ole John is being handed his head on a plate.
.

John Curl? LOL. That is an easy task Poor guy doesn't know when to quit.
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post #197 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Bring on your experts who know about the engineering detail. I'm a degreed engineer. I've built my share of audio gear from scratch. Even ask JC who I am, he knows about who I am (and probably down in his heart fears) me.

Read about me here:

http://www.stereophile.com/news/050905debate/

Having an open mind doesn't mean having holes in your head.

From the stereophile link you provided:
Quote:


After reading the classic book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, Curl speculated that there's something about the stress of ABX testing that causes the right brains of most participants to shut down or at least skip a synapse or two. It's a reasonable hypothesis that deserves further scrutiny.

"Reasonable"? Perhaps they meant in a comedic sense.
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post #198 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 02:50 PM
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After reading the classic book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, Curl speculated that there's something about the stress of ABX testing that causes the right brains of most participants to shut down or at least skip a synapse or two. It's a reasonable hypothesis that deserves further scrutiny. [Emphasis added.]

Very revealing. A key feature of subjectivist rationalization is the failure to understand the distinction between speculation and hypothesis.

Curl is living proof that you can be ignorant of an awful lot of science and still design an amp.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #199 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Very revealing. A key feature of subjectivist rationalization is the failure to understand the distinction between speculation and hypothesis.

Curl is living proof that you can be ignorant of an awful lot of science and still design an amp.


and perhaps, a failure to distinguish popular books that simplify and distort neuroscience, from real science.
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post #200 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 07:56 PM
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I'm not so eager to buy into stupefying ignorance, when the individual in question has received a formal education and achieved some level of professional success in a technical field. The bizarre, surreal notion of a trial subject's entire right hemisphere shutting down in response to test anxiety as an alternative to the much simpler, infinitely more plausible explanation of an inability to discern any audible difference, seems like a very deliberate attempt to pass off utter poppycock as reasoning, in order to protect a position which has just become demonstrably untenable.
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post #201 of 1168 Old 12-29-2008, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rto View Post

I'm not so eager to buy into stupefying ignorance, when the individual in question has received a formal education and achieved some level of professional success in a technical field. The bizarre, surreal notion of a trial subject's entire right hemisphere shutting down in response to test anxiety as an alternative to the much simpler, infinitely more plausible explanation of an inability to discern any audible difference, seems like a very deliberate attempt to pass off utter poppycock as reasoning, in order to protect a position which has just become demonstrably untenable.


What he said.
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post #202 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Because it's a forum. It's not your own personal Web site, where you get to decide on the content all by yourself.



That does not answer my question. Why will you not respect the OP in so many threads?
(not that I don't understand the psychology of that)

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #203 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

You've missed two points.

(1) If you don't want to convince others, why post? You know what you know, right? If you do want to convince others, then you've now seen how it is done.

(2) If you are gathering information about what sounds best for your own benefit, why not do it right? Why continue to feed back your own biases to yourself?



Wrong question. This is not about your ears, it is about the context in which you choose to use them.

However, if you've been listening for 50 years, chances are good that your ears aren't as sensitive and reliable as a well-trained 30 year old's. It appears that I'm older than you, so don't take this personally, its me doing a true confessions thing. ;-)



What's to respect when people want to do things their way, right or wrong, relevant facts be damned? You know keeping up is one of the differences between a grouchy old codger and a senior statesman.




Isn't sound quality the most important thing?

If what you like to get all huffy and call a "picnic player" sounds just as good as the best, isn't that good news for all of us?

Or, is your elitism that important to you that you'll producly put people down for their preferences, sound quality be damned?



Pardon me, but isn't the real issue sound quality?

Or, is the real issue flaunting expensive toys?



I can tell that you really like being a soldier in the class war.



Straw man. You should know that's not what blind testing is all about.



Actually, I'm selling classic liberal social enlightenment - letting everybody live well if they will put forth an honest effort, differences in economics and perceptions about social class nothwithstanding. You know, what the fathers of our country wanted to do?



We seem to be coming from vastly different places, despite any similarities in years.

Unlike what you seem to believe, I believe in the American dream and good sound at picnics, if good sound and picnics are meaningful to you. ;-)

I don't like picnics. You can have mine.
I see you were insulted at my post, It was not my intent. However it would be dishonest to not have stated the obvious. Your reply is confirmation that my post was valid. That is pretty basic Psychology.
And by the way my message was not, "mine is bigger than your", it was I have my opinon and would like it respected. I have no trouble respecting people who feel all CD players are the same, just don't insult me. and generally with such arrogance. Why?
Again I suggest Psyc 101.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #204 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<No one is asking you to do that.



Again, no one is suggesting your ears aren't good enough. What several persons have suggested, however, is that since you are human like the rest of us, your ears are not the only part of you that does the hearing. Your brain is a vital part of your sense of hearing, and it is subject to being fooled, just like the brains of everyone else here. That fact does not mean you or your brain are flawed, at least not any more than any human being or his/her brain is.



You can choose to disregard everything anyone else posts in this or any other thread. We are suggesting that you do so at the risk of self-delusion. The reason I call it self-delusion is that you seem to underestimate the part that bias plays in these kinds of evaluation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

If it is one's reality how can they be wrong?
Get it?



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<No, it isn't. You have erected a straw man argument and knocked it down. I do not speak for anyone else here, but you did ask me earlier in this thread what CD player(s) I listen to. Not that it matters or that it is any of your business, but in the interest of refuting for me, at least, your straw man speculation that I am merely trying to justify my listening to a "pitiful, portable picnic player," I will answer you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How can you dismiss such basic human psychology?
Given your arguments that all things sound the same, isn't it hypocritical to suggest you are immune from the reverse? All the same principles apply. And if one can truly afford a $10,000 machine or a $100 machine isn't the one who can only afford the $100 machine more prone to such self trickery? Psychology would suggest yes.
Do you really believe that all those that buy players over $300 do so to show off and are in need of justifying there acquisitions??????
All you pop Psychologists should check the other side of the coin before posting.
.



What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #205 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Of couse not. In audio it means trusting only your ears. Of course you must be able to see what you are listening to, or you can't fully trust your ears.

Do you go into Circuit city with a blindfold and audition a cd player (with the crowd noise) before you buy it?


that would be an awesome SIGHT!


LMAO, thanks

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #206 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I didn't say that.

Fact is, everything isn't equally probable. But the other fact is, the possibilities I cited are at least a probable, if not more, as the one you cite. The last fact is, you haven't provided anything near good evidence for your claim...that would involve ruling out the two possibilities I named.

This is a forum. You get to post , everyone gets to comment. If you only care about convincing yourself, then why do you care about anyone's critique of your method for convincing yourself?

I think you missed my point completely. I submit my ears for fact.
Why would one evaluating sound need more?
That is my point.
I can respect people who bring a blindfold to an audition.
But they seem to have an issue with those that think it, entertaining.

General question, do all those who support "all cd players are the same" bring blindfolds when auditioning speakers?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #207 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

and perhaps, a failure to distinguish popular books that simplify and distort neuroscience, from real science.

Let me get this straight. Only select science is acceptable to the "all the same crowd." It sounds like a religion in audio disguise.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #208 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 06:22 AM
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Why will you not respect the OP in so many threads?

I presume you mean some generic subjectivist OP, and not anyone in particular, so here's my answer:

Because he is willfully ignorant, because he is spouting baseless pseudoscience, because he is misleading others, and because he is doing great damage to audio as a hobby.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #209 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I think you missed my point completely. I submit my ears for fact.

What does that mean to you?

Quote:


Why would one evaluating sound need more?

Taken at face value, that makes you a proponent of blind testing. After all, blind testing is all about just listening with the ears, and more specifically not seeing or by any other sense than hearing, knowing the identity of what you are listening to.

Unfortunately the rest of your post, which is full of straw men, falsifies this reasonble interpretation of your position.

Quote:


That is my point.
I can respect people who bring a blindfold to an audition.
But they seem to have an issue with those that think it, entertaining.

How do you think you can be credible when you spew forth such an obvious straw man as this blindfold garbage?


Quote:


General question, do all those who support "all cd players are the same" bring blindfolds when auditioning speakers?

Again, how do you think you can be credible when you spew forth such an obvious straw man as this blindfold garbage?

Got any other notes to play? Or, do you have just one note in your music?
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post #210 of 1168 Old 12-30-2008, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What does that mean to you?



Taken at face value, that makes you a proponent of blind testing. After all, blind testing is all about just listening with the ears, and more specifically not seeing or by any other sense than hearing, knowing the identity of what you are listening to.

Unfortunately the rest of your post, which is full of straw men, falsifies this reasonble interpretation of your position.



How do you think you can be credible when you spew forth such an obvious straw man as this blindfold garbage?




Again, how do you think you can be credible when you spew forth such an obvious straw man as this blindfold garbage?

Got any other notes to play? Or, do you have just one note in your music?

Thanks for the reply, but I am confused.
What am I spewing?
How does one purchase a CD player if they are of the school that all player are the same? Are you saying that it is such a consistent rule that they don't listen to a CD layer before they buy it? If they do listen, why would they not bring a blind fold????????? I don't get it.

and I do find it amusing that someone would bring a blindfold to Circuit City with such ridiculous back round noise. Frankly I don't even think low end CD players are auditioned. Are they? If not, how can any of you say that they all sound the same?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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