Yet another vinyl virgin turntable question... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 60 Old 12-30-2008, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
CaptainFinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all:

I am looking at adding a turntable to my audio setup, which is getting increasingly complex lately. I would like to spend $500 or less, but that could be reexamined. I was looking at the Technics SL-1200MK & Denon DP-300F. I have no desire to DJ or scratch, I just want a high quality analog sound. After reading many posts here I'm thinking I should add Rega P1 and Pro-ject Debut III to my list. What do you recommend. I would love the versatility to add a much better cartridge after I upgrade my speakers, (next project, like what I've heard about Aperion) but I have too many LPs I need to enjoy now.

Also, I shouldn't need a preamp with the 2809, right? It has phono inputs so I'm assuming a preamp wouldn't be worth it...

Current Equipment:
Denon 2809ci receiver (new)
Technics Floor Speakers (3 way w/ 8" driver)
JBL Flix 10 center & surrounds
JBL 500 Bookshelf speakers
Yamaha YST-SW90 Subwoofer
CaptainFinny is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 60 Old 12-30-2008, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
The Technics is head-and-shoulders above the others you mentioned. But it generally does not come with a cartridge, so you have to figure that into the bargain.

No, you won't need a phono pre, but it's one possible upgrade down the road.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #3 of 60 Old 12-30-2008, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
CaptainFinny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the info!

Sweet. Looks like im going with the technics 1210 and a shure m97.

I saw a post about a Denon 3808 (better than my 2809) and how he hooked up a preamp and it went from sounding ok to amazing, do you agree?

What would some good preamps be to look into?
CaptainFinny is offline  
post #4 of 60 Old 12-30-2008, 03:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:


I saw a post about a Denon 3808 (better than my 2809) and how he hooked up a preamp and it went from sounding ok to amazing, do you agree?

No. I'd say it would go from pretty good to somewhat better—still worth it but not the first place I'd put my money. The one I typically recommend (based largely on a good review in The Sensible Sound) is the Parasound Zphono, which runs about $150.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #5 of 60 Old 12-30-2008, 10:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
soundlovr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I would put the Technics table at the bottom of your list... way, way at the bottom. Unless you're planning on DJ'ing (which is what the Technics was built for), there is no way that it could be compared to a Rega (note that the Rega P2 is the price-equivalent to the Technics) or the Pro-ject. And the Denon is a great casual enthusiast table that's a lot nicer to use since it's automatic. Audiophiles generally aren't who anyone should listen to, but their malign of the Technics direct-drive system is well-earned.

The 2809 has a great phone amp built-in. I think Denon's phono sections are far-and-away the best available in a receiver.

The M97 is a much-loved cartridge with a lot of strengths, but has lost a lot of ground to the AT440MLa which is worth looking at for its tracking strengths that put the M97 to shame.
soundlovr is offline  
post #6 of 60 Old 12-31-2008, 06:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
To each his own, I suppose. But this is simply false:
Quote:
Unless you're planning on DJ'ing (which is what the Technics was built for)

The 1200 was built for the consumer market. It was adopted by the pro world because it's a great table that also happens to be built like a tank. In terms of speed accuracy and stability and overall isolation, it leaves everything else in its price class in the dust.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #7 of 60 Old 01-01-2009, 02:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
twitch54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SE Pa
Posts: 593
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

To each his own, I suppose. But this is simply false:

The 1200 was built for the consumer market. It was adopted by the pro world because it's a great table that also happens to be built like a tank. In terms of speed accuracy and stability and overall isolation, it leaves everything else in its price class in the dust.


While I'm not a Technics owner I agree 100%, as a matter of fact, I for one do not like low end belt drives, espescially the P-1, it's flimsy , IMO. along with it's MDF platter, yuck ! on the the other hand the Rega P-9 is a stellar piece and will perform well beyond it's price point.

I've stated before relative the price point you mention..... I wouldn't ! for my way of thinking is to be patient, save more $$$ (at least dbl your budget) and if the Rega line is to your liking start out @ the P-3 or above.
twitch54 is offline  
post #8 of 60 Old 01-01-2009, 06:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PR Audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlovr View Post

I would put the Technics table at the bottom of your list... way, way at the bottom. Unless you're planning on DJ'ing (which is what the Technics was built for), there is no way that it could be compared to a Rega (note that the Rega P2 is the price-equivalent to the Technics) or the Pro-ject. And the Denon is a great casual enthusiast table that's a lot nicer to use since it's automatic. Audiophiles generally aren't who anyone should listen to, but their malign of the Technics direct-drive system is well-earned.

The 2809 has a great phone amp built-in. I think Denon's phono sections are far-and-away the best available in a receiver.

The M97 is a much-loved cartridge with a lot of strengths, but has lost a lot of ground to the AT440MLa which is worth looking at for its tracking strengths that put the M97 to shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

To each his own, I suppose. But this is simply false:

The 1200 was built for the consumer market. It was adopted by the pro world because it's a great table that also happens to be built like a tank. In terms of speed accuracy and stability and overall isolation, it leaves everything else in its price class in the dust.


Back in the 80's I spent most of my time as a DJ, was one of the founders of the largest local DJ company. I saw my share of Tech 1200 and Stanton's; the Tech 1200 was our choice, because it was a tank, reliable, easy to use, could adjust the speed to equalize beats (pitch), had a light, etc. It was not built for the consumer market, it was built for commercial use (radio stations, dj's, institutions, etc.). For the consumer market Technics had other models, back then a lot.

We bought the Tech 1200's not because of sound, motor speed stability, tracking ability, details, mids, bass control, or whatever other feature that as audiophiles we look for now. We used it because it did the job well. The same with the cartridge, we always used Shure and Audio Technica (AT), don't remember the models. But, they held well to the stress of scratching, turning backwards the records to find the beat, etc. Many of you remember Electro-Boogie (God forgive me as I have sin), Break Dancing (God forgive me again), and playing Heavy Metal records counterclockwise to hear secret diabolical messages (my favorite urban legend of the time).

Don't get me wrong the Tech 1200 is a good TT, but there is so much you can get out of it. These days my preference is a Rega P2 with glass plate, and my choice of cartridge (Grado Gold). I wanted the AT440MLa, but my dealer didn't carry AT. These days I look for detailed mids, natural sounding voices, electronics not getting in the way of sound, tight and controlled bass, and enjoy music.

If I want to dance and rock out loud, I would use a 1200. But to sit down, with a cigar and a glass of aged in wooden barrels rum, I go with my P2.

My recommendation, go with the Rega P1, PJ Debut III, or Music Hall MMF-2.2; none of them will dissapoint you. And if you want a killer entry-level package go for the Rega P1 or MH MMF-2.2, change the plater to glass or acrylic, add ProJect's Speed Box, and you are set. If budget/price is important you can get the PJ Debut III for $310.00 at many dealers.
PR Audio is offline  
post #9 of 60 Old 01-02-2009, 10:39 AM
Member
 
mfeust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey wouldn't they all sound the same. Ops wrong thread.

Mark
mfeust is offline  
post #10 of 60 Old 01-02-2009, 10:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 371
That aged in wooden barrels rum sounds good. Wouldn't have Joe Kennedy's name on it somewhere would it?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #11 of 60 Old 01-02-2009, 11:02 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Rammitinski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Des Plaines, IL
Posts: 17,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Maybe Ted Kennedy's. Oh, wait - that would be "pickled", and not "aged".
Rammitinski is offline  
post #12 of 60 Old 01-02-2009, 05:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PR Audio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Maybe Ted Kennedy's. Oh, wait - that would be "pickled", and not "aged".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

That aged in wooden barrels rum sounds good. Wouldn't have Joe Kennedy's name on it somewhere would it?

Don Q Grand Añejo, 3-12 years (depending on barrel age) in French Oak Barrels. Now, back to TT's.
PR Audio is offline  
post #13 of 60 Old 01-07-2009, 05:40 PM
Member
 
moneywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainFinny View Post


I saw a post about a Denon 3808 (better than my 2809) and how he hooked up a preamp and it went from sounding ok to amazing, do you agree?

I have a technics 1200mk2 with AT 150mlx cartridge connected to Denon 4308 phono. Pro-ject tube box II has arrived today so I hooked it up and did some listening. The difference is subtle right out of box when compared to denon 4308 phono. Maybe it will open up later.....
moneywalker is offline  
post #14 of 60 Old 01-07-2009, 06:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Denophile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
i would highly recommend the rega p1-p3, the project, or the music hall 2.2-5.1--all great intro turntables.

you need a MM cartridge (which should come with most of these tables) to use in your turntable if you are using the denon phonostage.

If you want a great sounding phono preamp (based on mikey fremers' Stereophile review and my own experience with it with high-gain (>2.5MV) MM cartridges) the belles vp130 will make for beautiful sound (my dad has a mf 2.2 with the belles and I have a marants tt15s1 that I use with it). i also have a music hall phono pream that was rather bright and disappointing. the zphono does seem great for the money--nad and vincent also make ineqpensive preamps as do many other companies.

the technics would not be personally on my list.
Denophile is offline  
post #15 of 60 Old 01-08-2009, 08:37 AM
Member
 
moneywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
After about 3 hours usage, Pro-ject phono box II is much better than Denon 4308 phono. I will keep this unit for sure.
moneywalker is offline  
post #16 of 60 Old 01-09-2009, 05:36 PM
bfm
Senior Member
 
bfm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: tampa
Posts: 349
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

That aged in wooden barrels rum sounds good. Wouldn't have Joe Kennedy's name on it somewhere would it?

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...+Malt+Speakers
bfm is offline  
post #17 of 60 Old 01-11-2009, 02:50 AM
Senior Member
 
/dev/null's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


i would highly recommend the rega p1-p3, the project, or the music hall 2.2-5.1--all great intro turntables.

+1 for the Music Hall. I have the Music Hall 5(not the 5.1) and although not the best in the world, is is very high on the 'bang for buck' scale. My pre-amp for it is a Musical Fidelity X-LPSv3(discontinued. the current version is the v.8)

Whatever your choices, don't skimp on the phono pre. When I got the Music Hall, they sold me a pre-in-a-box,(a small metal box with RCAs and a crappy PSU) and said that it would work fine. Wrong. It crushed the dynamics, and severely rolled off the highs, while distorting them. Spending at little more for the X-LPS was worth it. Lucky for me, the place I go has a one week return policy.

Peter M

******This space for rent******
/dev/null is offline  
post #18 of 60 Old 01-13-2009, 09:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Russ Younger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Meridian ID
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So why all the hate for the tech 1200s? Do they sound worse than the others? Isn't phono cartridge more important?
Russ Younger is offline  
post #19 of 60 Old 01-13-2009, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:
So why all the hate for the tech 1200s?

Basically, there's a cottage industry of little belt-drive manufacturers, who've been trashing direct-drives since god-knows-when. The audiophile press has followed along, both because it prefers little guys to mass marketers and because there are more potential advertisers of belt-drive products. Most audiophiles only know what they read, and this is what they read. Toss in specialty retailers, who don't carry mass-market brands like Technics (which is generally sold in pro audio shops), and you've got a high-end echo chamber.

Quote:
Do they sound worse than the others? Isn't phono cartridge more important?

It's a system, so everything's important. But the 1200 does basically everything a turntable is supposed to do as well as or better than anything else in the sub-$1000 class.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #20 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 12:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
soundlovr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 610
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Yes mcnarus, it's all a conspiracy. The fact that pretty much everyone disagrees with you is just a sign that the pod-people have gotten to them.
soundlovr is offline  
post #21 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 05:11 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,672
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 371
Don't forget mcmarnus that the billions & billions who've been served can't be wrong either.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is online now  
post #22 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 05:12 AM
Member
 
moneywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlovr View Post

Yes mcnarus, it's all a conspiracy. The fact that pretty much everyone disagrees with you is just a sign that the pod-people have gotten to them.

Who is everyone? I love my technics SL-1200. If you hate it, then could you share with us what is exactly wrong with it?
moneywalker is offline  
post #23 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 08:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Yeah, everybody agrees the 1200 is crap. That's why nobody buys one.

Also, direct drive is crap technology. That's why all the cutting lathes they use to make LPs are belt-drive. Oh, wait...

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #24 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 09:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 4,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 162
This guy seems to like the 1200 a lot, especially for value relative to other tables in the same price category. He also comments about the "bad reputation" of the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlovr View Post

Yes mcnarus, it's all a conspiracy...

I don't know soundlovr, your comments here seem to be a complimentary support for the idea that audio publications either consciously or unconsciously shape their editorial views to buttress the products and designs which keep them in business.

Or to put it another way, by virtue of the products they tend to review, none of which ever really get a poor review, they implicitly create an impression of greater credibility and quality to those types of designs or to those makers. In this case, belt-drive gets the bulk of their attention. This in turn probably rubs off on their readers who carry those impressions in their heads as they go to audition tables, almost always sighted and therefore unable to bring a clean slate to their listening experience.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Like words being cut-off before they've had a chance to finish, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post without comment, please check your zipper.
CruelInventions is offline  
post #25 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 09:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Here's another positive review of the 1200.

Don't miss the introduction to that review, which briefly discusses the alternatives.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #26 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 09:50 AM
Senior Member
 
Russ Younger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Meridian ID
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey everybody.

Sorry for starting a flame war, that wasn't my intention. Thank you everyone for your help.
Russ Younger is offline  
post #27 of 60 Old 01-14-2009, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CruelInventions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 4,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 162
a little chaffing maybe, but no flames.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Like words being cut-off before they've had a chance to finish, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post without comment, please check your zipper.
CruelInventions is offline  
post #28 of 60 Old 01-26-2009, 04:09 PM
Member
 
Photogeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have a Pro-Ject 1 Xpression III (with stock Oyster cart) that I am running through the built in pre-amp of my Denon 3806, and considering adding a seperate phono pre such as the Bellari V130 or the Pro-Ject Tube Box. The music seems a little flat, and I would like more gain. Any thoughts on what type of difference either will make in the sound quality? Also, if I do it, should it then be run through the phono input or an aux line input?
Photogeek is offline  
post #29 of 60 Old 01-26-2009, 05:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mcnarus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,997
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 260
Quote:


The music seems a little flat, and I would like more gain. Any thoughts on what type of difference either will make in the sound quality?

Well, the gain won't make any difference at all in sound quality unless your current receiver is clipping, which it probably isn't. Other than that, what you're buying might be more accurate equalization, but more likely just some tube-based distortion, which you may or may not like.

Quote:


Also, if I do it, should it then be run through the phono input or an aux line input?

If you use an outboard phono pre, use any input except phono.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

mcnarus is offline  
post #30 of 60 Old 02-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Newbie
 
AwesomeHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
comparing Quartz Direct Drive to Belt Drive is kinda like comparing a digital Casio to a Rolex.

everybody thinks the Rolex is better because its handmade, looks great,
costs a fortune and its what the "Cool Guy" is wearing.
But the Fact remains
that if you need to tell time accurately the Rolex isnt for you.

how can the statement of speed stability even be a factor?
The SL1200 has Quartz governing the speed vs. a belt drive DC motor??? with of all things a rubber belt attached to it.

the Tech is a far superior table to anything even remotely in its price class.

i always hear people bashing DD and the Tech,but no one has ever followed up with an explanation, a real explanation other than "the Hi-Fi mag doesnt like it".

1. it has rock solid timing (thats why its used for beatmatching)
2. its built like a brick.
3. it has a great tonearm and gimble.
4.it will be around long after your gone.
5.it has excelent re-sale value
6. its RCAs are easily upgradable if you feel the need to change them.

someone please set me straight,

Chris
AwesomeHT is offline  
Reply CD Players & Dedicated Music Transports

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off