Do High end Interconnects make a diffrence? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruins29 View Post

Oldschool, where in my post did I put down anyones position? Did you even read what I wrote? I never told anyone to do anything. I am asking about the "use your own ears" answer to posters asking about cables and how that "answer" may be problematic for several reasons. .

Why did you respond to me the way you did? Also, you seem to champion the cause of Not using Monster a lot. Is that just because you dont like them and the way they do biz? I know you have mentioned the lawsuits a couple of times.

It would just be nice if people would just answer questions instead of defending their positions over and over.

If you want side on caution, I would think you wouldn't want to cut yourselves short; so, why use cheap interconnects?



On a side note, I wasn't trying to attack you; I was trying to defend my stance. It seems like pro-cable people have to defend ourselves from anti-cable people.

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post #92 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post



The cables that are included with new gear...

What makes them el-cheapo? They never come with price tag on them. And what's the problem with those chosen by the engineers who designed the component?
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post #93 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Nope. Unless you have a VERY low-end player (like a portable or $59 Wal-Mart special), the analog output quality will be indistinguishable from another CD player's analog output. The days of CD player DACs not being up to the task are long gone. In fact, the losses induced by the analog cable and buffer amps dwarf any inconsistency in the CD player's DAC. Thus, unless the receiver has a pretty poor DAC or does some sort of lossy sample rate conversion, you are better off using the digital link.



Absolutely true. In general, the use of any sort of "DSP" function does exactly this.

Obviously MauneyM you're entitled to that opinion. Others have found the analog outs to provide a more satisfying experience.
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post #94 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

It seems like pro-cable people have to defend ourselves from anti-cable people.

"anti-cable"?



Last I checked, cables of some sort are a basic requirement for audio gear, so I'm not sure how someone can be "anti-cable".

However, it is VERY possible for someone to be honest about the electrical & mechanical properties of conductor systems (which is what cables are). Those who are honest with themselves realize that price has nothing whatsoever to do with performance in this market segment. In fact, at the high-end, ultra-high prices often are charged for products that actually perform terribly - but this is justified with pseudo-science, claims that can't be backed up, and very fancy packaging.

As I said before, the electrical and mechanical properties that determine the performance of a line-level interconnect do not require the use of ultra-expensive technologies. If you want to use them, knock yourself out. You will not see better performance from them, but if it makes you happy, great.

For speaker cable, the simple fact is that zip cord of the right gauge does as good a job as any "high-end" speaker cable, and does a better job than many.

Now, I can understand when someone wants to purchase something because of the aesthetic appearance (audio jewelry). I just think that we should all be honest with ourselves about the real reasons for doing so...and they have nothing whatsoever to do with the performance of the system.

For myself, I will state that I would far rather spend $500 on room treatments than on cables. I can guarantee that I can achieve more positive impact from damping material than from esoteric cables.
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post #95 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Obviously MauneyM you're entitled to that opinion. Others have found the analog outs to provide a more satisfying experience.

Can you give a reasonable explanation as to why? A locally-clocked DAC converting a bitstream to an analog signal is VERY well defined, and the performance differences between those available on the market today are miniscule - well below a human's ability to hear. This is not opinion, but fact.

When you add analog components into a signal chain you WILL lose resolution. Again, this is not opinion, but fact. A properly-functioning digital stream suffers no such degradation.

Thus, maintaining a digital signal path for as long as possible will result in the most accurate reproduction, unless there is something wrong with the DAC subsystem in the AVR.

If "more satisfying" means that you like having some of your highs rolled off, or you like phase error, OK, I can see your point. This is not accurate reproduction, however.

Again, I'm not speaking from opinion, but from basic engineering knowledge.
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post #96 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

What makes them el-cheapo?

The type that was shown in the photo generally has a pretty poor shield wrap. This results in poor shielding, higher impedance, and potentially mechanical noise. There are much better cables available for relatively low prices.

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And what's the problem with those chosen by the engineers who designed the component?

How often do you think the design engineer decides what accessories go into the box? That's normally done by the product manager or marketing specialist - and they are held accountable for sales and margin, not performance. You can bet that they didn't use those cables for the testing they did in the lab for the spec sheet.....
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post #97 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

Can you give a reasonable explanation as to why? A locally-clocked DAC converting a bitstream to an analog signal is VERY well defined, and the performance differences between those available on the market today are miniscule - well below a human's ability to hear. This is not opinion, but fact.

When you add analog components into a signal chain you WILL lose resolution. Again, this is not opinion, but fact. A properly-functioning digital stream suffers no such degradation.

Thus, maintaining a digital signal path for as long as possible will result in the most accurate reproduction, unless there is something wrong with the DAC subsystem in the AVR.

If "more satisfying" means that you like having some of your highs rolled off, or you like phase error, OK, I can see your point. This is not accurate reproduction, however.

Again, I'm not speaking from opinion, but from basic engineering knowledge.

The "degradation" you refer to is going to happen one way or the other in the inevitable conversion process. If the signal provided by the player is superior due to the design of the unit (clocking, power supply, caps, etc.,) the signal provided by the source could prove to be of a more revealing nature. Obviously you disagree with this. Again, your opinion.
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post #98 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

"anti-cable"?



Last I checked, cables of some sort are a basic requirement for audio gear, so I'm not sure how someone can be "anti-cable".

However, it is VERY possible for someone to be honest about the electrical & mechanical properties of conductor systems (which is what cables are). Those who are honest with themselves realize that price has nothing whatsoever to do with performance in this market segment. In fact, at the high-end, ultra-high prices often are charged for products that actually perform terribly - but this is justified with pseudo-science, claims that can't be backed up, and very fancy packaging.

As I said before, the electrical and mechanical properties that determine the performance of a line-level interconnect do not require the use of ultra-expensive technologies. If you want to use them, knock yourself out. You will not see better performance from them, but if it makes you happy, great.

For speaker cable, the simple fact is that zip cord of the right gauge does as good a job as any "high-end" speaker cable, and does a better job than many.

Now, I can understand when someone wants to purchase something because of the aesthetic appearance (audio jewelry). I just think that we should all be honest with ourselves about the real reasons for doing so...and they have nothing whatsoever to do with the performance of the system.

For myself, I will state that I would far rather spend $500 on room treatments than on cables. I can guarantee that I can achieve more positive impact from damping material than from esoteric cables.

Not everyone can use treatments if they are living/staying in someone elses dwelling:
Renting apartments/houses
Military/college dorms

And, you know exactly what I mean by "anti-cable"...

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post #99 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

If you want side on caution, I would think you wouldn't want to cut yourselves short; so, why use cheap interconnects?



On a side note, I wasn't trying to attack you; I was trying to defend my stance. It seems like pro-cable people have to defend ourselves from anti-cable people.

I appreciate the reply. I was not talking about using junk VS something 1/2 respectable - which BTW would apply to many people just entering the hobby. I would agree that the cables that come with a stock unit may not be up to snuff (subject to interpretation) I am talking about consumers expecting "better performance" by investing in the esoteric stuff (i.e the more you spend the better your SQ) and that using "ears to judge" this esoteric stuff is not even a legitimate way of comparing a cable.

MauneyM and many others who have had a lot of real world experience with this stuff, have indicated that wire is not wire indeed and that esoteric cable can add extras into the sound (as we all know). Therefore if a cusomer hears these "extras" I suppose they assume that the cable is doing what it is "supposed to do" thus making it a worthwhile purchase. Even though, this "extra" is not necessarily an upgrade to SQ.

All it would take is some sort of change to a sound to let someone believe that cable was doing what it was supposed to do. Change seems to automatically equal better in this hobby. And, better would almost always equal a worthwhile investment in this hobby.

Whatever..... why is it everything here turns into an us VS them battle? Should everyone all be on the same side with an issue like this? Particularley one where there is a scientific way to measure? I mean we are not talking about helping people who know what they are doing and know the hobby and are concerned with asthetics. We are talking about the every day guy who may read here but never post who like everyone else in the world (do to great marketing) just assumes "more expensive" is "better" and that any time they hear a cable change the sound, its an improvement.

I wonder what the % is of cable purchases (esoteric) that are done without any demo because it is just assumed it would be an improvement?

Also, I wonder how many posters that are on this site are linked in some way to these manufacturers. I think in this day and age of the internet with a site like this being a major deciding factor in someone's purchase that many manufacturesr may feel the best place to close a sale is in a place where a consumer might feel he is getting completely unbiased info. I dont know and am not accusing anyone I just wonder about it.

I know the the retail AV industry has long penetraded the internet and that there are legit AV guys here who are also B&M guys too. Great knowledgable posters. However, wouldn't it be super simple for these cable companies, or anyone to have shills post on the site to make sure that people are led to beleive that product X works and is worth the money?

Do people here ever think about the marketing aspect, and perception of a site like this to the general public? Or are we so insecure, and in so need to either prove we know more than others, or defend our purchases, that we cant let go of our biases? Or is it just plain old fashioned "sales" disgusied as an unbiased forum? Sort of the "sales tactics" of the new mellenium perhaps?
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post #100 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

...I don't want newbies to come to AVS and end up selling themselves short because someone says "wire is wire". I'm not gonna drop money on Parasound Halo seperates and use el-cheapo rca's and lampcord; looks are important as well...

I've been around here for a long time. Actually many years more than the date shows. I left for a while and did an Atlantic crossing on my trawler and them came back and rejoined with a new name. But my point is, in all the time I have been here and read the same endless debate over and over and over and over and over again, the BS that comes from both sides just gets old. For example, I have never read where anybody actually ever said that "wire is wire" although some like to put that BS out there as if their stating it makes it true. The fact is that most everybody that believes that wire does not change the sq always states that the cable must be of good construction, properly shielded, with good connectors. Their arguments always stem from that basic tenant. So if you want to argue your points, perhaps the argument might best be stated in the context of the facts and not the exagerated version of those facts skewed to your benefit. Additionally, if you are so interested in newbies getting the right facts, rather than selling themselves short, what makes your version of what you hear fact? Might it be argued that you are encourging them to waste money? I really liked an earlier post of yours where you state that you like better cables because you simply like the looks, quality, and can afford them. Spot on. Nobody would argue with that statement. When you add that you believe that they change the sq, a lot, some might disagree but nobody would challange you on what you hear, just on why you hear it.

So if you want to protect newbies and make sure they get the facts, you should start by quoting what people have actually posted not your wire is wire BS and perhaps post some analytical data to support your claim that better cables give better sound, so those newbies you speak of can judge that data for themselves. Otherwise you need to state it as opinion. And that is MY opinion.
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post #101 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

The "degradation" you refer to is going to happen one way or the other in the inevitable conversion process. If the signal provided by the player is superior due to the design of the unit (clocking, power supply, caps, etc.,) the signal provided by the source could prove to be of a more revealing nature. Obviously you disagree with this. Again, your opinion.

1) The clocking in any decent digital system today is FAR more accurate that your ears can detect, unless you can hear well over 100 kHz. There won't be a detectable difference from this. Not opinion; fact.

2) If there is a problem with the power supply in the AVR, you will have problems that are more audible than any DAC performance shift. If there are PS problems in the CD player, then you would be better off with the DAV in the receiver. Not opinion; fact.

3) Any significant cap problem will show up as a power supply issue - see above.

How much digital design experience do you have? Can you actually give a real scenario of a properly functioning CD player & AVR system that would have DAC artifacting that would be greater than the analog losses between two components? Seriously?

I think you have an idea in your head that somehow a particular CD player's DAC could be so superior to a given AVR DAC that it would be more accurate than an analog chain. This is so unlikely in a real-world scenario as to defy any logic. The only way this happens is if the AVR is a complete piece of junk or is not working properly; the DAC in any decent piece of modern equipment will be far more accurate than the analog link between even really, really good components.
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post #102 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 03:15 PM
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Well Bruins29, I hope any body who spends any amount of time on this forum has found out that more expensive definitely doesn't always equate to better. And maybe it's just me (and I've been at this hobby for over 40 years...... gulp), but none of my friends has ever spent any amount of appreciable money on cables without a good listen first. Even those with long standing dealer relationships ascribe to the theory "trust... but verify".
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post #103 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

1) The clocking in any decent digital system today is FAR more accurate that your ears can detect, unless you can hear well over 100 kHz. There won't be a detectable difference from this. Not opinion; fact.

2) If there is a problem with the power supply in the AVR, you will have problems that are more audible than any DAC performance shift. If there are PS problems in the CD player, then you would be better off with the DAV in the receiver. Not opinion; fact.

3) Any significant cap problem will show up as a power supply issue - see above.

How much digital design experience do you have? Can you actually give a real scenario of a properly functioning CD player & AVR system that would have DAC artifacting that would be greater than the analog losses between two components? Seriously?

I think you have an idea in your head that somehow a particular CD player's DAC could be so superior to a given AVR DAC that it would be more accurate than an analog chain. This is so unlikely in a real-world scenario as to defy any logic. The only way this happens is if the AVR is a complete piece of junk or is not working properly; the DAC in any decent piece of modern equipment will be far more accurate than the analog link between even really, really good components.

You seem to think I'm referring to "problems" or faults in the design of certain components. I'm not. And I'm glad you feel comfortable reciting your "facts". Suffice it to say that some of the most talented engineers in the audio world have spent years and a lot of money designing some of the circuitry used in current cd playback equipment, and very, very few AVR's can match the sophistication of the digital to analog conversion found in these units. You also seem to be under the impression that the analog loss between the two units would invariably result in an inferior result than the conversion being done by the AVR. Good for you. There are however many, many enthusiasts who would beg to differ with that logic.
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post #104 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

You also seem to be under the impression that the analog loss between the two units would invariably result in an inferior result than the conversion being done by the AVR. Good for you. There are however many, many enthusiasts who would beg to differ with that logic.

But not many engineers would.

The simple fact is that the currently available crop of D/As are all quite good at the relatively low frequencies used in audio gear. The differences between them are so small as to be inaudible in all but the best systems, in the best rooms, with the best source material.

Analog doesn't meet this standard - not even in high-quality components. You seem to be trying to cite an instance where someone has a super-high-end CD player coupled with a bargain-basement AVR. How often do you think this really happens? Unless you have the world's most accurate DAC in the CD player and a piece of junk in the AVR, the difference between them is just plain insignificant in comparison to the difference between analog and digital.

Even beyond this simple point, do you really believe that the AVR manufacturers haven't put a ton of time into ensuring that their DAC systems work properly in the same way as the CD player designers? Think about it for a moment - the majority of signals being sent to a receiver today are digital. Why would you believe that a receiver would have an inferior DAC subsystem, but would have an analog input section capable of resolving at the same level as some hypothetical incredible CD player?

Step away from the marketing bullet points for a few moments and really think this through.....
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post #105 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:04 PM
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Uhh, I wouldn't bet on that.
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post #106 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

But not many engineers would.

The simple fact is that the currently available crop of D/As are all quite good at the relatively low frequencies used in audio gear. The differences between them are so small as to be inaudible in all but the best systems, in the best rooms, with the best source material.

Analog doesn't meet this standard - not even in high-quality components. You seem to be trying to cite an instance where someone has a super-high-end CD player coupled with a bargain-basement AVR. How often do you think this really happens? Unless you have the world's most accurate DAC in the CD player and a piece of junk in the AVR, the difference between them is just plain insignificant in comparison to the difference between analog and digital.

Even beyond this simple point, do you really believe that the AVR manufacturers haven't put a ton of time into ensuring that their DAC systems work properly in the same way as the CD player designers? Think about it for a moment - the majority of signals being sent to a receiver today are digital. Why would you believe that a receiver would have an inferior DAC subsystem, but would have an analog input section capable of resolving at the same level as some hypothetical incredible CD player?

Step away from the marketing bullet points for a few moments and really think this through.....

You have a fixation with all or nothing. In the audio world, there are gradations to everything. Some are perceptible, some aren't. This thread on interconnects is probably not the best place for a white paper on digital to analog conversion in AVR's versus CD players. You've made your thoughts known on the subject, and it's also well known that others differ with your perception.
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post #107 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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Uhh, I wouldn't bet on that.

I would. Its spot on. And if you spent any time investigating the facts you would also. There are many threads running about DACS, look in the two channel section and use the search function. If you really want to argue about SQ differences between DACS these days, you'll find plenty of takers and a plethora of information. Join one of those threads and participate in the dialog. You just might learn something. Or share something.
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post #108 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:28 PM
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I would. Its spot on. And if you spent any time investigating the facts you would also. There are many threads running about DACS, look in the two channel section and use the search function. If you really want to argue about SQ differences between DACS these days, you'll find plenty of takers and a plethora of information. Join one of those threads and participate in the dialog. You just might learn something. Or share something.

Judging from that statement, you might need to spend some time there yourself, my friend.
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post #109 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post

The type that was shown in the photo generally has a pretty poor shield wrap. This results in poor shielding, higher impedance, and potentially mechanical noise.

Potentially but does it happen normally?
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post #110 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

Not everyone can use treatments if they are living/staying in someone elses dwelling:
Renting apartments/houses
Military/college dorms

I doubt you would have come up with such reply if you understand what it means to acoustically treat a room.
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post #111 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 07:20 PM
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I doubt you would have come up with such reply if you understand what it means to acoustically treat a room.

I have GRAMMA's under my subwoofer, I had MoPAD's under my center channel (no more multi-channel), and homemade cylinders in the corners of my room; I realize that my room can sound only so good because of the design of it (where the walls are/not, window placement, etc...).

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post #112 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

...
That said, I have no doubt that some enthusiasts can perceive sonic differences in some cables, for whatever reason. ....

They do post it, not deleted But, on the other hand, explaining why perception is not hearing but what the brain made you think it, is important. One reason why bias controlled testing can be very important and truth telling.
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post #113 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

...
With enough resistance in one cable, it can cause audible difference.

How much of a difference though, before it is audible/

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Some esoteric cables are designed to have high capacitance which can alter frequency response thus changing sound coming out of speaker but that's coloration. .

No. Some amps have poor designs and self destruct from the oscillations due to high cable capacitance. Otherwise, capacitance has no effect in the speaker cable business.
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post #114 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

....
What I hate is when those same people tell newbies that "wire is wire" when it's not; there differences in workmanship, materials used, and design.

If that is what the poster is after, better material and workmanship, perhaps that should be asked in the first place, no? And, how would design affect the cable if it is not visible to a user?

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Plus, as stated on this forum before, people are not gonna buy $12K+ piano finish speakers just so they can hook it up with lampcord; I don't care if it works. That's just tacky; looks play an important part (not just function).

Or, they may and don't care as the wires will not be on display?

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.... People bad mouth ultra high end interconnect companies; they have their place in audio.

What place would that be?


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Originally Posted by oldschool4life View Post

.... I would be obligated to use them.

You mean someone would come around and obligate you to do so?
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post #115 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

Obviously MauneyM you're entitled to that opinion. Others have found the analog outs to provide a more satisfying experience.

But of course. Another result of human bias I bet they may have that more satisfying experience under a DBT especially when it can be had with the lesser unit
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post #116 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

...

So if you want to protect newbies and make sure they get the facts, you should start by quoting what people have actually posted not your wire is wire BS and perhaps post some analytical data to support your claim that better cables give better sound, so those newbies you speak of can judge that data for themselves. Otherwise you need to state it as opinion. And that is MY opinion.

Spot on.
But that is not what he wants to do. He wants to indoctrinate the new person to his belief system; the more like minded folks he has the better his belief system looks to him.
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post #117 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by par4 View Post

The "degradation" you refer to is going to happen one way or the other in the inevitable conversion process. If the signal provided by the player is superior due to the design of the unit (clocking, power supply, caps, etc.,) the signal provided by the source could prove to be of a more revealing nature. Obviously you disagree with this. Again, your opinion.

All that can be measured, interestingly enough. Fortunately the differences today are well below the JND thresholds. But, you don't need convincing, right, you know what you perceive, infallible.
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post #118 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:48 PM
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.... There are however many, many enthusiasts who would beg to differ with that logic.

But of course, that is why this debate is ongoing. But, that doesn't mean that they are correct.
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post #119 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

But of course. Another result of human bias I bet they may have that more satisfying experience under a DBT especially when it can be had with the lesser unit

What do you mean by "lesser unit"?
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post #120 of 243 Old 02-21-2009, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

If that is what the poster is after, better material and workmanship, perhaps that should be asked in the first place, no? And, how would design affect the cable if it is not visible to a user?



Or, they may and don't care as the wires will not be on display?


What place would that be?




You mean someone would come around and obligate you to do so?

We could ask the person about their needs; but, you guys blurt out "wire is wire" before they get done.

----------

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francois...%20Rogerro.htm

If I had a setup like that, you damn right I'm gonna use ultra high-end interconnects...

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