Older Denon DVD-1930ci as CD Player, is it ok? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 39 Old 05-07-2013, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by meistermon View Post

Hey there,

I am an audio engineer and wanted to point out that if it is higher quality audio you are seeking, I recommend DVD-Audio discs. These are 24-bit while CDs are 16-bit. Mathematically, DVD-Audio discs have 256 times more depth than a CD. Even a regular DVD-Video disc being played in DTS or Dolby Digital Surround is many times better audio quality than the best quality CD. Also, with DVD-Audio discs, typically, there is an option to play in 5.1 surround sound. Sometimes this is a completely new mix (not just crowd noise added to the surround speakers for instance) where you can hear things you may not have noticed or even been able to hear in the stereo mix of the same song. So, if it's quality sounding audio you want, start paying attention to the things audio engineers pay attention to. Tapes and records are often better sounding than CDs as well, not just DVDs, btw. Lower resolution recordings such as MP3s, WMAs or MP4s (AACs) can be decent sounding on earbuds but do not even compare to CD quality, much less higher quality media. Have fun.

There is no doubt that the DVD-Audio format has the potential of more bandwidth and higher resolution than audio CDs, MP3s, WMAs or MP4s (AACs). However in audio system design we need to look at the weakest link the audio chain, not the strongest. It turns out that the actual limitations to sound quality in modern audio systems are not the recorded format.
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post #32 of 39 Old 05-07-2013, 02:08 PM
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Because I did hear it. As opposed to others that only listen to cutsheets, I actually own two players with the exact same DAC's.
Maybe you need to read one more time: The numbers itself are not important, but the fact that the manufacturer give different values. You need to ask yourself WHY those are not equal? What else is not equal in a more dramatic way and it masked by those static numbers? Something like the number of sigma-delta bits used?
Maybe you need to read some of those papers:
http://www.aes.org/events/110/papers/O.html
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Single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta converters are in principle imperfectible. The reason, simply stated, is that, when properly dithered, they are in constant overload. Prevention of overload allows only partial dithering to be performed. The consequence is that distortion, limit cycles, instability, and noise modulation can never be totally avoided. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle infinitely perfectible. (Here, multi-bit refers to at least two bits in the converter.)
Even if on paper a 1 bit S-D seems 'close enough' of a 2 bit S-D, and that 2 bit 'close enough' of a 4 bit S-D, the actual sound is very different, due to the different noise shaping needed. That's why the seemingly 'close enough' THD+N and dynamic NUMBERS hide something radically different.
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post #33 of 39 Old 05-07-2013, 04:19 PM
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When you heard these differences, were you doing level-matched, blinded listening tests, with time-synced discs being played, etc?

Or was this a sighted test with little or no controls?

If it was the former, I'm very interested in learning more. If it was the latter, then, well,.....not so much.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #34 of 39 Old 05-08-2013, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

Even if on paper a 1 bit S-D seems 'close enough' of a 2 bit S-D, and that 2 bit 'close enough' of a 4 bit S-D, the actual sound is very different, due to the different noise shaping needed. That's why the seemingly 'close enough' THD+N and dynamic NUMBERS hide something radically different.

You seem to disbelieve the idea that some differences are so small as to not be audibly discernible.

Fact is we can now easily measure all sorts of things that make no audible difference.

The significance of noise shaping ranges from usually audible with 8 bit converters, to unlikely to be hear with good 16 bit converters.

Your posts sound like they come from someone who has been led down any number of rabbit holes by poorly done (probably sighted) evaluations.

It is key that your listening evaluations be:

(1) Level matched within 0.1 dB
(2) Involve the exact same musical selection with editing within 10 milliseconds
(3) Fast switched with total user control over the comparisons
(4) Double blind

Otherwise you will hear differences, even if you compare something to itself.
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post #35 of 39 Old 05-09-2013, 07:29 AM
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I guess all the AES papers that I linked where written by idiots too...
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post #36 of 39 Old 05-09-2013, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

I guess all the AES papers that I linked where written by idiots too...

They appear to focus on measured, not audible performance. It's not idiotic to study technology, but it is unwise to lose track of what actually makes an audible diference.
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post #37 of 39 Old 05-12-2013, 07:40 PM
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Well, not being satisfied with the 1930 I found a 2910 on CL and bought it... the CD/SACD sound quality from this player is more what I was hoping for when I got the 1930... plus much more solid construction and the sound is even better than the HD-A2 which is my main CD player atm.... I guess I will keep the 1930 for a backup player or something. I find it interesting the difference in the sound between these two (the 1930 and 2910) is so apparent to me... the improvements in the sound stage (depth + clarity) and clarity of vocals is finally very satisfying with the 2910. Hopefully the unit holds out for me for a while. It's appears to be in very good physical condition and the owner said it had been sitting unused for a while... I guess you never know with these things. Fingers crossed. smile.gif

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post #38 of 39 Old 05-14-2013, 06:12 PM
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That player has a special bug in the firmware that makes it desirable for some people.
I have one, used just for SACD, but I replaced the OpAmps with better ones. Use the stereo mix outputs for stereo audition, those have better components than the multi-channel ones.
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post #39 of 39 Old 05-14-2013, 06:52 PM
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Thanks.... I think I saw a thread on DIYaudio where people were modding the 2910 and you posted something about modding yours. I am thinking about modding mine. and yes, I am using the stereo outs for sure (not the 5.1 outs front L R).

Listening: Outlaw Audio 950 | Sony CDPCX355 | 2x Marantz MA-700 + 2x MA-6100 | Energy RC-70 bi-amped + SVS PB-1000
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