Older Denon DVD-1930ci as CD Player, is it ok? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 03-08-2009, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello all,

I have an older Denon DVD-1930ci, it is still in the box, never used, it was a gift I got a while ago...

I was looking at the manual (you can check here if needed http://www.usa.denon.com/DVD-1930CI-OM-EFS.pdf) and it does not mention which of the output is processed by the BurrBrown DAC.

According to the Denon Website specs it stats that it has Burr-Brown 24/192 Audio DACs (DSD/PCM Discrete) PCM-1738 but also does not state if it is only for STEREO jack or the 5.1 outputs.

you can check the specs here:
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3299.asp

Does anyone know for sure which of the outputs are processed by Burr Brown PCM-1738?

I want to use this player as CD Player and I would like to use the BEST possible audio out!

Thank you!

Listening is the best experience.
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post #2 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 07:48 AM
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Not sure what your question is, but it'll be fine as a CD player.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #3 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Does anyone know for sure which of the outputs are processed by Burr Brown PCM-1738?

The spec shows "Burr-Brown 24/192 FL/FR, 24/96 C/SL/SR/Sub". It uses Burr-Brown for all analog outputs. The front mains (FL & FR) use 24 bit/192 KHz and the rest use 24 bit/96 KHz.

It will do well for CD use.
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post #4 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Not sure what your question is, but it'll be fine as a CD player.

Ya it should be! I just want to know which output to use!

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

The spec shows "Burr-Brown 24/192 FL/FR, 24/96 C/SL/SR/Sub". It uses Burr-Brown for all analog outputs. The front mains (FL & FR) use 24 bit/192 KHz and the rest use 24 bit/96 KHz.

It will do well for CD use.

Hello Geekhd,

Actually, no... it says Burr-Brown 24/192 Audio DACs (DSD/PCM Discrete) PCM-1738 it does not inform which input...

Some players have different Burr-Brown chips for the FL/RL and C/SL/SR/SUB, but in 1930ci the outputs are not especified!

As you can see in the model spec, the Burr-Brown 24/192 FL/FR, 24/96 C/SL/SR/Sub have a "minus" symbol on the right side of the table, meaning it is absent!


Thank you!

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post #5 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 12:56 PM
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Ya it should be! I just want to know which output to use!

Funny, I didn't see that question in your post.

Use whichever output you want, or whichever output is most convenient, or whatever. CD playback quality is not likely to be affected by whether you use the DAC in the player or a receiver.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #6 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 01:05 PM
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If the player has L/R only analog outputs in addition to 6 ch analog outputs, I'd use the L/R pair. The 6 ch analog output should have the ability to have speaker distance, etc processing done before D->A whereas the L/R may not - simpler signal path. Although you probably won't hear any difference when level matched.
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post #7 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 02:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

As you can see in the model spec, the Burr-Brown 24/192 FL/FR, 24/96 C/SL/SR/Sub have a "minus" symbol on the right side of the table, meaning it is absent!

Sorry, my bad.
Stereo performance of DVD or CD player is all good nowadays. As long as it's not malfunctioning, you have nothing to worry about.
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post #8 of 39 Old 03-09-2009, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Funny, I didn't see that question in your post.

Use whichever output you want, or whichever output is most convenient, or whatever. CD playback quality is not likely to be affected by whether you use the DAC in the player or a receiver.

Really? I thought the DAC would be responsible for one of the most important part of the audio "creation". Once I read that the better the DAC, the better the sound quality, some people even use External DACs, but I guess it is good to hear that I will not have any difference!

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

If the player has L/R only analog outputs in addition to 6 ch analog outputs, I'd use the L/R pair. The 6 ch analog output should have the ability to have speaker distance, etc processing done before D->A whereas the L/R may not - simpler signal path. Although you probably won't hear any difference when level matched.
larry

I see, interesting! thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Sorry, my bad.
Stereo performance of DVD or CD player is all good nowadays. As long as it's not malfunctioning, you have nothing to worry about.

Dont worry! It is working perfectly, I just didnt know which output have the best sound quality!

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post #9 of 39 Old 03-10-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

....Once I read that the better the DAC, the better the sound quality, some people even use External DACs, ...

Yes, and some people place sand bags on the clock inside CD players for stability or wire lifters. People try most anything their minds can imagine to try
Fortunately, or not, hearing has limits and thresholds of detection and most good players are well beyond those limits today or yesterday.
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post #10 of 39 Old 03-10-2009, 04:04 PM
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Really? I thought the DAC would be responsible for one of the most important part of the audio "creation". Once I read that the better the DAC, the better the sound quality, some people even use External DACs, but I guess it is good to hear that I will not have any difference!

The DAC is important, and every DAC is different, but in general they aren't different enough for your ear to detect it.

You might hear a difference between them because the output levels are different—one will be subtly louder than the other. But at any given volume, they'll sound the same.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #11 of 39 Old 03-11-2009, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Yes, and some people place sand bags on the clock inside CD players for stability or wire lifters. People try most anything their minds can imagine to try
Fortunately, or not, hearing has limits and thresholds of detection and most good players are well beyond those limits today or yesterday.

Indeed! But still it would be nice to know which output is controlled by the dac!

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

The DAC is important, and every DAC is different, but in general they aren't different enough for your ear to detect it.

You might hear a difference between them because the output levels are differentone will be subtly louder than the other. But at any given volume, they'll sound the same.

I totally agree with you.. But you see, you buy a product, and when you want to use it, you want to extract the best you can from this product. So knowing which output would (potentially) give a better sound (even if we cannot hear) would be nice!

We dont buy a very expensive CD player with an AWESOME dac, just because of the DAC to hook it to the pre-amp with the digital output, right?

Anyways thank you for your help!

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post #12 of 39 Old 03-11-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Indeed! But still it would be nice to know which output is controlled by the dac!

Thanks!



I totally agree with you.. But you see, you buy a product, and when you want to use it, you want to extract the best you can from this product. So knowing which output would (potentially) give a better sound (even if we cannot hear) would be nice!

We dont buy a very expensive CD player with an AWESOME dac, just because of the DAC to hook it to the pre-amp with the digital output, right?

Anyways thank you for your help!

Kate, there should be separate l/r 2 channel rca's on the back of the unit for stereo only playback using of course the Burr-Brown dacs. There should also be a pure direct mode available which turns off the video circuitry when listening to your cd's, allowing for the potentially best audio playback via the analog outs.
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post #13 of 39 Old 03-11-2009, 09:14 AM
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the main question everyone seems to be missing is whether or not kate* would be utilizing the same DAC when connecting a (typically colored) red/white rca cable pair vs. when connecting with a 5.1 set of rca cables. My assumption is that everyone here thinks it's a given that the same DAC is used either way, regardless of kate*'s reading of the instruction manual (which does seem a little vague, at least as represented here in this thread).

bottom line kate*, if you want to "hear" the DAC used in the player, use it's analog outputs with whatever you're connecting to, whether it be with 2 cables or 5 - 6 cables for surround or sacd/dvd-a, etc. Don't use the optical/digital single cable outputs on the CD player to connect it to your receiver/processor.

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post #14 of 39 Old 03-11-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Indeed! But still it would be nice to know which output is controlled by the dac!

Thanks!



I totally agree with you.. But you see, you buy a product, and when you want to use it, you want to extract the best you can from this product. So knowing which output would (potentially) give a better sound (even if we cannot hear) would be nice!

We dont buy a very expensive CD player with an AWESOME dac, just because of the DAC to hook it to the pre-amp with the digital output, right?

Anyways thank you for your help!

hey kate,

I have this player in a second system. I use the stereo analog outputs in to a HK 3380 2 ch receiver and through my musical fidelity xcanv3 headphone amp and sennheiser hd650 cans with excellent results. It is a very very good cdp for the price. While the 2 ch dac's are not BB's finest they do an excellent job of rendering detail.

Despite and what the naysayers here so flippantly and pedantically purport (i.e everything sounds the same) I think you will find great satisfaction with this player using the internal dac's via the stereo analog outputs, which also do a good job of downmixing 5.1 sacd/dvda mixes.

If you are planning on using the multichannel outs for dvd or multichannel audio it may depend on your downstream gear--sounds like it would help if you explained what you are planning on doing with the machine and what you plan on hooking it up to as well as what source material you are planning on listening to.
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post #15 of 39 Old 03-11-2009, 11:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Denophile View Post

Despite and what the naysayers here so flippantly and pedantically purport (i.e everything sounds the same) .

It would be nice to see you backing it up with evidence.

Quote:
I think you will find great satisfaction with this player using the internal dac's via the stereo analog outputs, which also do a good job of downmixing 5.1 sacd/dvda mixes

So it is yet to be confirmed.
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post #16 of 39 Old 03-12-2009, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi there,

I got Denon support answer today!

Here is the answer from my question about which OUTPUTS ultilize the Burr Brown DAC's, and the answer was:

Response (Ean Levy) 03/12/2009 05:19 PM
Yes both the stereo and 5.1 outputs will utilize the Burr Brown DAC's.


Thank you!

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post #17 of 39 Old 03-12-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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Hi Kate,

I have the Denon 1920, also with the Burr-Brown PCM-1738, and it is excellent at playing CDs, SACDs, DVD Audios & DVD Videos.

Great CD player through it's analog output.

For the price, it's hard to beat.

_______
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post #18 of 39 Old 04-17-2013, 10:24 PM
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Hey there,

I am an audio engineer and wanted to point out that if it is higher quality audio you are seeking, I recommend DVD-Audio discs. These are 24-bit while CDs are 16-bit. Mathematically, DVD-Audio discs have 256 times more depth than a CD. Even a regular DVD-Video disc being played in DTS or Dolby Digital Surround is many times better audio quality than the best quality CD. Also, with DVD-Audio discs, typically, there is an option to play in 5.1 surround sound. Sometimes this is a completely new mix (not just crowd noise added to the surround speakers for instance) where you can hear things you may not have noticed or even been able to hear in the stereo mix of the same song. So, if it's quality sounding audio you want, start paying attention to the things audio engineers pay attention to. Tapes and records are often better sounding than CDs as well, not just DVDs, btw. Lower resolution recordings such as MP3s, WMAs or MP4s (AACs) can be decent sounding on earbuds but do not even compare to CD quality, much less higher quality media. Have fun.
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post #19 of 39 Old 04-18-2013, 03:58 PM
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Hey there,

I am an audio engineer and wanted to point out that if it is higher quality audio you are seeking, I recommend DVD-Audio discs. These are 24-bit while CDs are 16-bit. Mathematically, DVD-Audio discs have 256 times more depth than a CD. Even a regular DVD-Video disc being played in DTS or Dolby Digital Surround is many times better audio quality than the best quality CD. Also, with DVD-Audio discs, typically, there is an option to play in 5.1 surround sound. Sometimes this is a completely new mix (not just crowd noise added to the surround speakers for instance) where you can hear things you may not have noticed or even been able to hear in the stereo mix of the same song. So, if it's quality sounding audio you want, start paying attention to the things audio engineers pay attention to. Tapes and records are often better sounding than CDs as well, not just DVDs, btw. Lower resolution recordings such as MP3s, WMAs or MP4s (AACs) can be decent sounding on earbuds but do not even compare to CD quality, much less higher quality media. Have fun.

Oh boy, how has this not stirred the hornets' nest?

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post #20 of 39 Old 04-18-2013, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Oh boy, how has this not stirred the hornets' nest?

Heh. Well, this is definitely not true:

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Originally Posted by meistermon View Post

Even a regular DVD-Video disc being played in DTS or Dolby Digital Surround is many times better audio quality than the best quality CD.

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post #21 of 39 Old 04-25-2013, 10:13 PM
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I just picked one of these up cheap on ebay for CD playing also... I get it next week.

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post #22 of 39 Old 04-30-2013, 08:08 PM
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bump.... I got my 1930ci.... I think I prefer the sound of my hd-a2 over this one but I need to do more a/b testing. seems like the presence of vocals was much better on the a2, I feel like they are getting lost in the other parts of the music with the 1930ci... weird. well... not what I was hoping for but I will test some more. My norah jones SACD comes tomorrow... maybe that will cheer me up. smile.gif

edit: the hd-a2's balance of vocals with the music is to my ears, is so perfectly balanced... with the 1930 the vocals are not as pronounced and seem to get lost in the music at times... I am playing Madonna 'ray of light' and Dire Straights 'brothers in arms' CDs back to back between the players.. funny! sometimes your diamond mine is right under your feet. I guess it'll be cool to keep the 1930 for SACDs or make another system for the garage work bench area. (and I should pick up another a2 as a backup)

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post #23 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 04:37 PM
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The DVD-1930 can be improved by replacing the output OpAmp's and adding some capacitors parallel with what is there.

Anyway, the 1930 is not in the same ballpark with 2100 or 2130 (or the 3xxx series). 1930 has a multi-channel DAC from TI - DSD1608 (Dynamic Range: 108 dB, THD+N: 0.0012%)with NJM4580 OpAmps. Average chips at best, especially the mediocre OpAmps. The others have multiple stereo DAC's like TI's PCM1791 (Dynamic Range: 113 dB, THD+N: 0.001%), with NJM2068 OpAmps. Better parts.
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post #24 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 04:57 PM
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the other thing I noticed about the 1930 it's light as a feather.. feels like an empty shell almost.. I did a lot of a/b tests last night and the 1930 is going to end up in the garage as a cd player for the work bench. I am surprised because i saw references to people using it on very expensive setups to test the different sounds between different speakers and amps so I figured it would be better than my A2..

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post #25 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 05:04 PM
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Have you measured output levels of the two players? Have you made sure you've level-matched the two?

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post #26 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoNic67 View Post

The DVD-1930 can be improved by replacing the output OpAmp's and adding some capacitors parallel with what is there.

Anyway, the 1930 is not in the same ballpark with 2100 or 2130 (or the 3xxx series). 1930 has a multi-channel DAC from TI - DSD1608 (Dynamic Range: 108 dB, THD+N: 0.0012%)with NJM4580 OpAmps. Average chips at best, especially the mediocre OpAmps. The others have multiple stereo DAC's like TI's PCM1791 (Dynamic Range: 113 dB, THD+N: 0.001%), with NJM2068 OpAmps. Better parts.

But all are well beyond audible. You think you can hear a difference between 108dB dyn range and 113dB??

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post #27 of 39 Old 05-01-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Have you measured output levels of the two players? Have you made sure you've level-matched the two?

not with any device but the 1930's level is lower than the A2's for sure.. I have to turn the volume up a bit and the gain on the sub down a little to get a similar sound out of the 1930... I assume I can't turn up the gain on the outs on the device?

...but I just popped in my norah jones sacd and configured the denon to 2 channel sacd play and wow.. it sounds pretty nice! I am very new to sacd and I assume in 2 channel mode it's still the higher resolution content but in 2 channel mode? (not 5.1) anyways.. that's probably a discussion for another thread...

I figured it out, it's definitely playing in 2 channel SACD mode... sounds amazing!

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post #28 of 39 Old 05-04-2013, 02:30 PM
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bump: SACDs sound pretty amazing on this player... so not going in the garage after all. smile.gif I got the Dark Side of the Moon SACD yesterday... I read it's best in 5.1 mode but I only have a 2 channel setup in the office... oh well. Still sounds very good.

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post #29 of 39 Old 05-06-2013, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

But all are well beyond audible. You think you can hear a difference between 108dB dyn range and 113dB??
The important number is the THD+N, not dynamic range. The THD is just a number, but it will give you indirectly a hint of the actual quality. Is not about what they show you, not a direct relation, but what you can infer from that.
In my experience, I had listen to both of those DAC's and... they do sound different.
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post #30 of 39 Old 05-06-2013, 04:00 PM
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If the dynamic range isn't important, why did you mention it?

The difference in THD, from your numbers, is 0.0012% vs 0.0010%. So I ask again, do you really think that is audible???

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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